Bluemour Melting Pot XXVIII

[Arr0w]

He did caveat in the fact that we need to win games for him to be truly safe but I thought this a redundant and obvious statement that I didn't post it.

Plus I had to many scotches last night and was trying to make sure I didn't post anything I wasn't supposed to.

Don't hold back, all information gives people a better understanding of realism

 

[Bic]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

 

[Gavstar]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

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Yep data bears out the argument that Plowman is a pretty bad 1 v 1 defender. Yet he ranks highly in BnF its just plain weird to me.

Lines up with media views that part of our poor defensive structure is that it is Weitering and Jones or bust.

How good are Weitering and Jones 1v1 though!

Now we need Jones to always play the percentages when disposing of the footy.

 

[RoyalParade]

He did caveat in the fact that we need to win games for him to be truly safe but I thought this a redundant and obvious statement that I didn't post it.

Plus I had to many scotches last night and was trying to make sure I didn't post anything I wasn't supposed to.

Fair enough but I was talking about Lloyd not Teague

 

[LanceRomance]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

View attachment 1156296

I think you will find our loss rate with Plowman out of the side is close to 100 per cent

 

[new_blue]

Thank **** for Jones and Weiters!

If they were average defenders we’d be in a real world of pain.

Shows how bad our game plan is and the reliance we place on those 2 winning or halving their contests.

 

[xDQ82x]

Fair enough but I was talking about Lloyd not Teague

yeah sorry i didn't meant to quote your post it was more meant to go with the other one.

 

[Coops93]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

View attachment 1156296

A case of time apart making the heart grow fonder. Since he's been out people have started to think he's the lynchpin of our backline.

I've been a Lachie defender, but even I'm not going to that point. He's either the scapegoat or the only lockdown defender we have, apparently.

The answer is obviously in between. He's a versatile B grade 3rd tall/medium to small defender. He's fine but not exceptional. He'll have good games then be exposed now and then. That's about it.

 

[JustaBattler]

Thank fu** for Jones and Weiters!

If they were average defenders we’d be in a real world of pain.

Shows how bad our game plan is and the reliance we place on those 2 winning or halving their contests.

The scatterplot doesn't list all defenders from all teams - but wow - yeah Weits and Jones have probably saved Teague' job a few times over - what an indictment on the midfield!

 

[Stiffler's Dad]

Thank fu** for Jones and Weiters!

If they were average defenders we’d be in a real world of pain.

Shows how bad our game plan is and the reliance we place on those 2 winning or halving their contests.

Agreed.
We do need to find or develop another at least though with Jones getting on in age.
I like the way Melbourne look with May and Lever.
We need to sure up our succession and soon.
I like Parks a lot but he's a different type.

 

[Arr0w]

It's still an indictment on Teague given he still is, to this stage, reluctant to play a +1 and or more defensive structures

This puts more pressure on the midfield to assist the defensive unit

 

[Blue since 72]

It's still an indictment on Teague given he still is, to this stage, reluctant to play a +1 and or more defensive structures

This puts more pressure on the midfield to assist the defensive unit

1 on 1 is a bloody tough gig when the ball is moving up the ground quickly, Teague needs to pull his head in regarding this and give the defense more help.

 

[Blue__Balls]

Not sure I like this. Purely because no one should be safe before the review has even happened.

Probably a few factors, some of which people won't like but will absolutely be relevant to the club/board.

Optics - the one people will hate most. Sacking another senior coach already is going to look bad, and if you think the media won't have a field day with it then you're kidding yourself. Club needs to look strong, or as strong as they can at least.

Financials - if we're going to chase "better" assistants, then we're probably not in the position to also be paying Teague out on top of signing a new senior coach. It's possible a couple of the current assistants who get turfed might be in line for a payout as well, depending on their contracts. Can we pay Teague + a replacement (high value) senior coach + the assistants we keep + some of the assistants we cut + all the assistants we recruit...? Doubt it.

Performance - whatever failings Teague has are most probably due to inexperience, and are things that can likely be rectified with better people around him. We signed an untried coach but didn't support him properly, so before we make a final judgement on him it would be in our and his best interests to see how he performs with the right support.

All in all, I don't think this is the year to be culling Teague. He should be part of the review, insofar as it explores selection, gameplan, culture etc. But his position shouldn't be at risk because the aim of the review should be in improving him as much as anyone else.

 

[katmanblue]

Rubbish. Saad is what he is. A cream player who relies on being unaccountable to be at his best.

Saad was the wrong type of defender to get. What we needed, in reality, is a lockdown defender. We already had a, largely, unaccountable dashing halfback type in Sam Docherty. As it is, the coaching staff have already realized that you really cannot play both Docherty and Saad in the same backline.

My kingdom for Neville Jetta in his prime.

 

[Bluebag13]

It's still an indictment on Teague given he still is, to this stage, reluctant to play a +1 and or more defensive structures

This puts more pressure on the midfield to assist the defensive unit

We have seen him do this at times but yeah its usually a last resort and he is generally pretty late or reluctant to pull the trigger

 

[Lace_Out]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

View attachment 1156296

Interesting.

Would love to know the % of times Plow has been undersized in his 1 on 1's. Be pretty high you would think.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[CJMB]

Re: McGovern

Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow aside, McGovern is the only medium-or-taller forward that we have on the list that demands a defender play on him at all times. I'll dismiss the suggestions of Casboult because the opposition understands that his kicking doesn't hurt them consistently enough regardless of how much improvement he has had from the beginning of his career to now.

Clearly, he has been injured and hasn't lived up to the promise and expectations that we placed on him. Obviously, he needs to shoulder the responsibility placed on his performance. However, I can't help but feel that we've been robbed of the ability to see him play the role that was envisioned for him when he came to the club.

Count me as one of the few who still believe that there is potential there for him to play a significant role when he and Charlie Curnow return. If Charlie comes back remotely close to what he was (let alone what he could be) McGovern will lift so much weight off his (Charlie's) and Harry's shoulders. Potential is there for us to have our best forward line since the '95 season when Sticks, Brad Pearce, and Earl Spalding were at their best.

That Spalding role (to clarify: tertiary target who opens the game up for the other two) is what I envision McGovern playing for us. No expectation for him to kick 45+ goals but to primarily open the game up for the other two and to impact the contest. If he can do that and the three of them can stay fit then it wont be a question of how much McGovern is making to play that role because he'll be worth his weight in gold.

Still holding out hope and have confidence. It all hinges on the three of them staying healthy and not just two of them.

hear, hear

 

[CJMB]

The thing about having a player as determined as Jack is that there'll almost always be a role that he can play.

Might not always be in the forward line but when it's not he could slide down back (as could Gov) but also play that determined tagger role like he did when he shut down Fyfe.

Not sure Jack's that good as a 3rd tall anyway, his best moments are either scrapping/crumbing/1%er efforts (sometimes close to goals) or as that hff/hhf link player where he makes a good decision that puts us in a better position to score (like that kick back inside from the right forward flank the other week).

He's not a great mark, although does bring it to ground a bit and will follow up with a 2nd/3rd effort once it hits the deck. He's far from a good shot on goal, particularly set shots, but can kick a blinder in general play occasionally.

Kind of a utility player. I think his best work is as a forward flanker or inside mid (/tagger on similarly sized players). he can swing back but I'm yet to be truly convinced about that due to his leg speed. One thing I'm fairly confident of is that, at least right now, he really ain't a 3rd tall despite being listed at 194cm.

 

[Gethelred]

My kingdom for Neville Jetta in his prime.

As underrated a player as there is in this competition.

Wanted to try and get him 3-4 years ago.

 

[CJMB]

I don't actually know, but I'd be surprised if the AFLPA allowed these sorts of things into every players contract. Maybe in certain circumstances for certain players it would be but I'd be surprised if it was every players contract.

There's guaranteed money, match payments, there's incentives for various KPIs like games played, goals kicked, B&F fininish, Brownlow, Coleman, and a stack of other things.

Player X could be reported to be on 750k. That could include a guaranteed base of 500, match payments of 5, and the remaining split up with incentive payments based on winning/placing/top10 in the B&F, Brownlow, AA, AFLPA MVP, AFLCA MVP & Coleman, along with other KPIs. So for them to get that reported 750 they have to absolutely brain it. The

Those incentives will obviously vary player to player; Weitering certainly ain't gonna have anything about goal kicking, while a younger player (exc Walsh) likely isn't going to have anything relating to competition-wide awards.

Some players may not have match payments as part of their contract, they might have a higher base instead and that 'security' of guaranteed money was what their manager was chasing in contract negotiations (as opposed to the chance to get more if things go well). Ie player Y "on 750" might be on 650 base with 100 incentivised, or even 700:50 if that 'security' was a big part in the negotiation process. In both cases I'm pretty confident the number being leaked out to the media is the maximum possible payment, and quite possibly with a bit of mayo on top of that.

Bottom line is this stuff happens, it's in a lot of them but none of us have any f****** idea what's actually written on these contracts unless you're the player, their manager, the club, or someone close enough to somehow be told (but even then I'm sure you're not getting the full details, maybe an overall picture of expected or max).

 

[ferrisb]

Re: McGovern

Harry McKay and Charlie Curnow aside, McGovern is the only medium-or-taller forward that we have on the list that demands a defender play on him at all times. I'll dismiss the suggestions of Casboult because the opposition understands that his kicking doesn't hurt them consistently enough regardless of how much improvement he has had from the beginning of his career to now.

Clearly, he has been injured and hasn't lived up to the promise and expectations that we placed on him. Obviously, he needs to shoulder the responsibility placed on his performance. However, I can't help but feel that we've been robbed of the ability to see him play the role that was envisioned for him when he came to the club.

Count me as one of the few who still believe that there is potential there for him to play a significant role when he and Charlie Curnow return. If Charlie comes back remotely close to what he was (let alone what he could be) McGovern will lift so much weight off his (Charlie's) and Harry's shoulders. Potential is there for us to have our best forward line since the '95 season when Sticks, Brad Pearce, and Earl Spalding were at their best.

That Spalding role (to clarify: tertiary target who opens the game up for the other two) is what I envision McGovern playing for us. No expectation for him to kick 45+ goals but to primarily open the game up for the other two and to impact the contest. If he can do that and the three of them can stay fit then it wont be a question of how much McGovern is making to play that role because he'll be worth his weight in gold.

Still holding out hope and have confidence. It all hinges on the three of them staying healthy and not just two of them.

It almost doesn't even matter on the calibre of the targets, but just the availability and fitness of them.

I remember years ago, when we were rotating Waite, Henderson and Casboult through the forward line. None of them were elite forwards (apart from Waite when he was 'on'), but they all demanded a defender. And you couldn't afford to double team anyone coz that would free up the other two.

We almost never had all three fit at the same time. But I distinctly remember one match where all three played forward and they kicked 13-14 goals between them.

OK, that won't happen every week. But just having three genuine targets AT THE SAME TIME makes each of them individually and collectively more dangerous.

 

[BeijingBlue]

Not sure Jack's that good as a 3rd tall anyway, his best moments are either scrapping/crumbing/1%er efforts (sometimes close to goals) or as that hff/hhf link player where he makes a good decision that puts us in a better position to score (like that kick back inside from the right forward flank the other week).

He's not a great mark, although does bring it to ground a bit and will follow up with a 2nd/3rd effort once it hits the deck. He's far from a good shot on goal, particularly set shots, but can kick a blinder in general play occasionally.

Kind of a utility player. I think his best work is as a forward flanker or inside mid (/tagger on similarly sized players). he can swing back but I'm yet to be truly convinced about that due to his leg speed. One thing I'm fairly confident of is that, at least right now, he really ain't a 3rd tall despite being listed at 194cm.

Jack's skill set is just as a utility player. All sides need them to do the grunt work and the better skilled players finish off the work. Jack is not a finisher.

 

[ferrisb]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

View attachment 1156296

Plowman lumped in with KPPs there.

Those other players listed are playing on FFs and CHFs. Plowman is playing on small and med fwds, not sure that's the right cohort for him.

Would love to see that chart rejigged to have him compared to other 'small defenders*'.






* He's not a small defender, but that is how he is often used.

 

[Coops93]

There's guaranteed money, match payments, there's incentives for various KPIs like games played, goals kicked, B&F fininish, Brownlow, Coleman, and a stack of other things.

Player X could be reported to be on 750k. That could include a guaranteed base of 500, match payments of 5, and the remaining split up with incentive payments based on winning/placing/top10 in the B&F, Brownlow, AA, AFLPA MVP, AFLCA MVP & Coleman, along with other KPIs. So for them to get that reported 750 they have to absolutely brain it. The

Those incentives will obviously vary player to player; Weitering certainly ain't gonna have anything about goal kicking, while a younger player (exc Walsh) likely isn't going to have anything relating to competition-wide awards.

Some players may not have match payments as part of their contract, they might have a higher base instead and that 'security' of guaranteed money was what their manager was chasing in contract negotiations (as opposed to the chance to get more if things go well). Ie player Y "on 750" might be on 650 base with 100 incentivised, or even 700:50 if that 'security' was a big part in the negotiation process. In both cases I'm pretty confident the number being leaked out to the media is the maximum possible payment, and quite possibly with a bit of mayo on top of that.

Bottom line is this stuff happens, it's in a lot of them but none of us have any f****** idea what's actually written on these contracts unless you're the player, their manager, the club, or someone close enough to somehow be told (but even then I'm sure you're not getting the full details, maybe an overall picture of expected or max).

I also discussed some of the potential incentives being unable to be reached due to injury. I'd doubt there's penalties per se based on being injured (i.e. losing some of your salary) but losing out on incentives due to injury would undoubtedly a real thing.

 

[Ash24]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2020)

On a side note it also shows how much action Weitering and Jones get compared to the rest of the league - lol

View attachment 1156296

I believe that data is old. These are our defender's contested 1v1 loss percentages:

Jones - 12%
Newman - 17%
Stocker - 18%
Weitering - 21%
Saad - 25%
Plowman - 26%
Parks - 40%
Docherty - 42%


EDIT - Just for reference as a comparison across other defenders in the league: Salem (12%), Stewart (13%), Hurn (15%), Grimes (18%), Broad (19%), May (20%), Andrews (24%), Barrass (26%), Maynard (30%).