Bluemour Melting Pot XXVIII

[Beast__Mode]

Club	Avg Age	Avg Gms	Avg Gls	Avg Hgt	Avg Wgt
Carl	25.71	97.7	65.4	188.1	87.3
W.C.	25.62	106.1	60.1	189.3	87.7

An Eagles supporter posted this in the AFL gameday thread.
I thought it was an interesting comparison including height and weight. Eagles play tall. It may help on the dryer grounds out west. I think it is more our lack of conditioning as a weakness. I also thought Carlton generally look small bodied, but this implies we arent so light framed. Again, this looks like lower match fitness/athleticism.

Average cms probably doesn’t say a lot. The issue for me is how many immobile players do you have in your 22 because every one of those compromises your ability to maintain running levels. Playing with Pitt and Casboult was madness because they were both horribly immobile, and both essentially useless in the forward line, particularly in terms of providing pressure. If they don’t mark it they may be as well be in the cheer squad. The flow on effect to the capacity of the rest of the team, never mind whatever plan the coach thinks he’s running with just compounds the error.

 

[JustaBattler]

Average cms probably doesn’t say a lot. The issue for me is how many immobile players do you have in your 22 because every one of those compromises your ability to maintain running levels. Playing with Pitt and Casboult was madness because they were both horribly immobile, and both essentially useless in the forward line, particularly in terms of providing pressure. If they don’t mark it they may be as well be in the cheer squad. The flow on effect to the capacity of the rest of the team, never mind whatever plan the coach thinks he’s running with just compounds the error.

yep

Harry aside- our talls up forward are treacle slow. Unfortunately Charlie and McGovern are out injured - those two are fast talls.
The frustrating bit is our genuinely faster players have all been unavailable so second string types are trying to play Teagues forward pressure game plan - when as you say - they cant bring pressure. TDK is still learning the ropes as a forward /ruck - he will be a great improvement going forward, Cuningham is out for the year and Fosher has just come back - whilst Martin on return was nowhere near match fit.

Most of the problem for us has been inability to put sustained pressure in our attacking fifty - and pressure is all about match up leg speed - leaving aside a bloke who is getting picked who hasnt laid a tackle in half a decade.

Cuningham Charlie Martin
Fisher Harry McGovern

that will be a balanced tall and fast dangerous forward line - one day.

 

[Beast__Mode]

yep

Harry aside- our talls up forward are treacle slow. Unfortunately Charlie and McGovern are out injured - those two are fast talls.
The frustrating bit is our genuinely faster players have all been unavailable so second string types are trying to play Teagues forward pressure game plan - when as you say - they cant bring pressure. TDK is still learning the ropes as a forward /ruck - he will be a great improvement going forward, Cuningham is out for the year and Fosher has just come back - whilst Martin on return was nowhere near match fit.

Most of the problem for us has been inability to put sustained pressure in our attacking fifty - and pressure is all about match up leg speed - leaving aside a bloke who is getting picked who hasnt laid a tackle in half a decade.

Cuningham Charlie Martin
Fisher Harry McGovern

that will be a balanced tall and fast dangerous forward line - one day.

exactly and this is what has me questioning Teague - adjust goddamn it! If your forward line can’t apply pressure, protect yourself up the ground - play a +1 in defence, increase your running capacity in the 22.
The best coaches adjust their game plan to suit the talent. Bad coaches just run their system. I fear we have the latter.

 

[Wickzki]

The Plowman is a lockdown defender is interesting as statistically he is one of the worst in the AFL (I believe this may be from 2

It's because when he has an amazing game he will keep the very best small to medium forwards goalless.

When he has a shocker it's the opposite and is capable of having a bag kicked on him in a quarter (edit: not necessarily his fault).

As others have said, the answer is somewhere in between. He's a good but not spectacular role player in this team.

We've not had the type of lockdown defender that the list needs. Midfield depth aside, it's the most obvious hole on our list that you can't readily point to injury as an excuse for. This has meant that Plow has often had to play roles that exploit him.

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

No. In every single case it would be better to get a third man to the contest.

We aren't spending those numbers elsewhere.

Individually it looks good for Jones and Weitering...in totality it means we have god awful team defense, likely far too many clean opposition entries from poor midfield defense and likely too many balls firing back in quickly from turnovers.

Anything sound familiar?

I haven't denied any of these. It's obvious,but to start all this your blanket statement was it's a ad thing we win so many one on one's.

We aren't spending that extra elsewhere because we havent really played with an extra.... If we did and they sat in the leafing lanes of those mid sized guys that rip us apart and left Weits and Jones as is we'd be a dominant defence again, depending on midfield help... Again, as geelong did with Scarlett.
Oh and every single case being better with a third man isn't true either. What's the point of playing a man down elsewhere so a third man can assist Weits who loses 12% of those contests when the extra could be doing something more productive like helping stoppages or a different defender who isn't so dominant 1v1...

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

The % is correct, but it's based on a fairly general circumstance. Not all one on one contests are the same - aerial, ground, on the lead, running back into space, crowded 50, open 50, kicked to advantage, to disadvantage.

It's just another CD special stat that tells very little.

Add another few layers of context and you can draw some relevant conclusions from it.

Yes but it's still consistently applied across all players which makes it a decent comparative tool still. Especially got players in the same team. Parks got dropped because he was getting bet 1v1 too much. The stat shows that.

Of course there are more layers to it after that but it can still be used to support observations

 

[Arr0w]

Every game we went with Casboult we were too tall, in my view. Because he gave zero pressure when in the forward line and was ineffectual in the ruck - so effectively that was one pair of legs we were down before we started each game. a creative coach would have rucked someone like JSOS or Setters for the five minutes the first ruck is having a spell. sacrifice the HO and create more pressure/numbers at the stoppage, increase running power available and lose nothing in the forward line.

You could make a case for Levi not playing early in the season, due to carrying a knee and picking OMac, but playing a non jumping JSos type chopout in the ruck would have been idiotic not creative

Our current situation isn't due to playing tall, as most of the better sides/contenders have done similar

 

[Kramer1]

I haven't denied any of these. It's obvious,but to start all this your blanket statement was it's a ad thing we win so many one on one's.

We aren't spending that extra elsewhere because we havent really played with an extra.... If we did and they sat in the leafing lanes of those mid sized guys that rip us apart and left Weits and Jones as is we'd be a dominant defence again, depending on midfield help... Again, as geelong did with Scarlett.
Oh and every single case being better with a third man isn't true either. What's the point of playing a man down elsewhere so a third man can assist Weits who loses 12% of those contests when the extra could be doing something more productive like helping stoppages or a different defender who isn't so dominant 1v1...

To save you a lot more words, I never said it was a negative to win one on one contests. The clear outlier is the number we contest.

And I'm not sure we are ready for comparisons to a defensive structure that had Enright, Mackie, Milburn, Hunt and often Kelly around that one out Scarlett...and one of the great all time midfields ahead of him.

 

[Beast__Mode]

You could make a case for Levi not playing early in the season, due to carrying a knee and picking OMac, but playing a non jumping JSos type chopout in the ruck would have been idiotic not creative

Our current situation isn't due to playing tall, as most of the better sides/contenders have done similar

who are they playing tall with, though? No one is going with two talls as immobile and ineffective at applying pressure as Pitt/Casboult.

anyway, Casboult was finally dropped, and hopefully when Charlie comes back Pitt is banished as well and we’ll have a more athletic group of talls, alongside a forward line more able to keep the ball inside F50.

 

[Arr0w]

who are they playing tall with, though? No one is going with two talls as immobile and ineffective at applying pressure as Pitt/Casboult.

anyway, Casboult was finally dropped, and hopefully when Charlie comes back Pitt is banished as well and we’ll have a more athletic group of talls, alongside a forward line more able to keep the ball inside F50.

So when TDK is the number one ruck, who does the chopout?

Seriously, Teague has more important priorities to rectify our output than worrying about playing tall, given all the better sides go in with similar or even taller structures

 

[Wickzki]

So when TDK is the number one ruck, who does the chopout?

Seriously, Teague has more important priorities to rectify our output than worrying about playing tall, given all the better sides go in with similar or even taller structures

Spot on.

Given our list one of Casboult, McDonald or Pittonet must play with TDK.

Jones could pinch hit (has the athleticism) but is too important down back.

McKay could pinch hit (has the athleticism) but is too important up forward (even when Gov/Curnow back).

Mirkov is not remotely close to ready.

The most left-of-field idea that has a remote chance of working is putting Cripps into the ruck and hoping the ball hits the deck but then you're risking significant injury to one of your A players.

 

[Beast__Mode]

So when TDK is the number one ruck, who does the chopout?

Seriously, Teague has more important priorities to rectify our output than worrying about playing tall, given all the better sides go in with similar or even taller structures

Firstly - if we’re playing a different system than other teams - which our players have told posters on this site directly - then I question the relevance of comparing us to other teams, but anyway;

Richmond is playing Pickett as relief ruck.

Melbourne has Gawn - very mobile - supported by Jackson - extremely mobile.

Brisbane has one statue - Big O - an forward/mobile relief - McStay

Swan’s run with Hickey and relief from a mobile tall forward eg McDonald

Dogs run with Martin (not super mobile but ok) and English - very mobile

So maybe substitute the word tall with mobile - and the point is better made. No team runs out with two statues who need to mark it to have impact, and even if they do mark it are walking turnovers by foot.

I would run with TDK and either Harry for five minutes, Gov for five minutes or a taller mid who’s going to bang bodies and essentially be an extra rover at the stoppage.

given how totally ineffectual Casboult has been in either ruck or F50 there is no acceptable argument for him to play a game. None.

 

[chunkylover53]

The data presented...however current it may be...shows Plow attends more one on ones than most KPDs...and Jones, Weitering more than all.

I think the question here is why?

I am suggesting that Plow gets caught in one on ones a lot, maybe as much for what others aren't doing, as anything he is doing.

Because he is isolated by the opposition coaches and forced into 1 on 1s....

The reason why is the opposition coaches understand that's their easiest way for a shot on goal. It's not rocket science and has been picked up by several commentators from several different shows the past 18 months.

 

[BlueJet]

Plowman is often the one left manning dangerous forwards deep which increases the instances where he's in a 1v1 - this isn't the problem so much as woeful defensive work by the midfield, Doc etc which effectively sees the opposition with a spare when entering f50 resulting in low/no pressure kick to the advantage of the forward.
Under these circumstances SOS, Scarlett etc would also have goals kicked on them..

Personally, I'd have TDK playing forward rotating into the ruck to give Pitt a spell.
Despite the hype, he's still quite raw and needs time to build his body to withstand the rigors of being a full time ruckman but he has shown some promising signs when left inside f50 & as much as I admire Levi, TDK's more agile and offers more when thrown into the ruck.

 

[Coops93]

yep

Harry aside- our talls up forward are treacle slow. Unfortunately Charlie and McGovern are out injured - those two are fast talls.
The frustrating bit is our genuinely faster players have all been unavailable so second string types are trying to play Teagues forward pressure game plan - when as you say - they cant bring pressure. TDK is still learning the ropes as a forward /ruck - he will be a great improvement going forward, Cuningham is out for the year and Fosher has just come back - whilst Martin on return was nowhere near match fit.

Most of the problem for us has been inability to put sustained pressure in our attacking fifty - and pressure is all about match up leg speed - leaving aside a bloke who is getting picked who hasnt laid a tackle in half a decade.

Cuningham Charlie Martin
Fisher Harry McGovern

that will be a balanced tall and fast dangerous forward line - one day.

Calling our talls up forward treacle slow is inaccurate. The only slow tall forward on the list is Casboult.

Harry, TDK, McGovern (more medium than tall tbf) and Curnow are all good athletes.

 

[Coops93]

Cripps into the ruck and hoping the ball hits the deck but then you're risking significant injury to one of your A players.

Ruck injuries aren't as common as they used to be. Shaun Grigg who's a twig managed to be a backup ruckman. The ruck being a massive risk is a myth in modern times imo.

 

[LakeMungoMan]

Firstly - if we’re playing a different system than other teams - which our players have told posters on this site directly - then I question the relevance of comparing us to other teams, but anyway;

Richmond is playing Pickett as relief ruck.

Melbourne has Gawn - very mobile - supported by Jackson - extremely mobile.

Brisbane has one statue - Big O - an forward/mobile relief - McStay

Swan’s run with Hickey and relief from a mobile tall forward eg McDonald

Dogs run with Martin (not super mobile but ok) and English - very mobile

So maybe substitute the word tall with mobile - and the point is better made. No team runs out with two statues who need to mark it to have impact, and even if they do mark it are walking turnovers by foot.

I would run with TDK and either Harry for five minutes, Gov for five minutes or a taller mid who’s going to bang bodies and essentially be an extra rover at the stoppage.

given how totally ineffectual Casboult has been in either ruck or F50 there is no acceptable argument for him to play a game. None.

100% spot on. Too many immoblie talls and it's been that way for 18 months

 

[Arr0w]

Firstly - if we’re playing a different system than other teams - which our players have told posters on this site directly - then I question the relevance of comparing us to other teams, but anyway;

Richmond is playing Pickett as relief ruck.

Melbourne has Gawn - very mobile - supported by Jackson - extremely mobile.

Brisbane has one statue - Big O - an forward/mobile relief - McStay

Swan’s run with Hickey and relief from a mobile tall forward eg McDonald

Dogs run with Martin (not super mobile but ok) and English - very mobile

So maybe substitute the word tall with mobile - and the point is better made. No team runs out with two statues who need to mark it to have impact, and even if they do mark it are walking turnovers by foot.

I would run with TDK and either Harry for five minutes, Gov for five minutes or a taller mid who’s going to bang bodies and essentially be an extra rover at the stoppage.

given how totally ineffectual Casboult has been in either ruck or F50 there is no acceptable argument for him to play a game. None.

Not questioning the validity of being mobile, but you seem to think this is the most important aspect of our current situation

When the Tigers use Pickett, they generally lose the stoppage which at centre bounces exposes them down back with the 6 6 6 rule. It's why the game has shifted away from Grigg type ruckmen

A 2nd ruck/forward doesn't excuse our small forwards from not being at the fall of the ball, applying pressure/tackles or gathering the loose ball

The main areas of concern is our gameplan the lack of contested ball, a long kicking game that does utilize players in space and a general lack of speed of non KPP players

You just can't go into games with just one ruckman in the modern game

 

[Beast__Mode]

Not questioning the validity of being mobile, but you seem to think this is the most important aspect of our current situation

When the Tigers use Pickett, they generally lose the stoppage which at centre bounces exposes them down back with the 6 6 6 rule. It's why the game has shifted away from Grigg type ruckmen

A 2nd ruck/forward doesn't excuse our small forwards from not being at the fall of the ball, applying pressure/tackles or gathering the loose ball

The main areas of concern is our gameplan the lack of contested ball, a long kicking game that does utilize players in space and a general lack of speed of non KPP players

You just can't go into games with just one ruckman in the modern game

I can’t say I agree with your last point but I’ve enjoyed the discussion. And your points re: pressure from small s and non KPPs is spot on - that aspect is collective.

it’s going to be a fascinating watch this week - two weeks two prepare, new voices. Let’s see what changes are in store.

 

[Blue Pulse]

Spot on.

Given our list one of Casboult, McDonald or Pittonet must play with TDK.

Jones could pinch hit (has the athleticism) but is too important down back.

McKay could pinch hit (has the athleticism) but is too important up forward (even when Gov/Curnow back).

Mirkov is not remotely close to ready.

The most left-of-field idea that has a remote chance of working is putting Cripps into the ruck and hoping the ball hits the deck but then you're risking significant injury to one of your A players.

Found this to be a really strange decision to pick him up with him being so raw with our ruck situation the way it has been and is. Apart from Kreuzer when fit we have struggled to develop a decent ruck man.
Next year we will more than likely retire Casboult and we have seen the hole created without him, especially this season due to him not being fit to play while playing. Is this where our red time goals are coming from when he moves into the ruck or Pittonet tires?
Pittonet is very average, TDK shows potential, but has a fair way to go and is still raw himself, I hope we have a plan B going into next season.

 

[Wickzki]

Ruck injuries aren't as common as they used to be. Shaun Grigg who's a twig managed to be a backup ruckman. The ruck being a massive risk is a myth in modern times imo.

Grigg started playing the ruck in 2017 as a healthy player. Within 18 months he was wrecked and retired.

 

[Coops93]

Grigg started playing the ruck in 2017 as a healthy player. Within 18 months he was wrecked and retired.

He was doing it well before that, as early as 2012.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Interesting.

Would love to know the % of times Plow has been undersized in his 1 on 1's. Be pretty high you would think.

Plow being oversized would be more the issue. I'd wager that the majority of Plowman's 1-on-1's are him trying to defend a quick lead by a small forward into a huge pocket of space created by our midfielders refusing to run defensively.

Meanwhile Jones and Weitering are more often contesting hip-to-hip with their opponent or in a pack. (but they still do an amazing job)

 

[zeeCFC]

Plowman has proven he has talent, he is a valued member of the side and we look worse now that he's out. We get it, when the other team gets a goal he is the guy standing the mark and it looks bad, but perhaps the issue also lies with the other 17 blokes upfield. Stocker looked shook at FB too, the issue is we play far too loose all over the ground and don't give our defenders a chance

 

[Gethelred]

To save you a lot more words, I never said it was a negative to win one on one contests. The clear outlier is the number we contest.

And I'm not sure we are ready for comparisons to a defensive structure that had Enright, Mackie, Milburn, Hunt and often Kelly around that one out Scarlett...and one of the great all time midfields ahead of him.

I wish someone would save me a lot more words...