BOOO-ing Goodes

[truman]

Well i wasn't basing any sort of argument on that, so you can spare me.

I was responding to obvious flaws and hypocritical double standards in his reply.

How often do we read in a match report after the game how someone like Naitanui, or Johansson (of the bulldogs) was racially taunted/abused by the crowd during a match? And do they make a spectacle of it? No. Do they run to the media/club/afl about it and turn it into a huge issue by labeling the entire crowd racist or threaten to retire? No.

It is dealt with appropriately by the suitable parties. Usually the abuser is cited and expelled from the club and/or banned from the stadium. There might be an article or a short story condemning racism and that's about it. It's how unfortunate racial incidents are usually dealt with in the AFL. A sharp blow.

Goodes on the other hand, has thrown that ^ out the window. He stopped playing, turned around and pointed directly at his ignorant "face of racism", a young child. Live on national television, on a friday night game, during prime time.

THAT ^ is one of several reasons why people do not like him. I haven't for one second said that "ape" isn't racist, but i do believe Goodes would have heard much worse in his 328 games before that. Wouldn't you? He didn't respond in the most gracious manner, something you'd expect from a professional footballer who's no doubt copped all different sorts of abuse in his career.

Look at the way Naitanui handled that racist lunatic on Twitter last year. That is professionalism.

I think isolated incidents can hardly be compared to what Goodes is receiving currently. People have their reasons for booing him, his AOTY speech and the 13 year old girl incident but often they misquote or select certain parts of his speech to suit their argument rather than using the whole speech, because as a whole the speech is actually very kind and about unity.

The 13 year old girl incident, I mean I don't think any non indigenous person can truly understand how an indigenous person feels when they are subjected to racial abuse, just like no non slave could understand how it was to be a slave or how any non persecuted person could understand how it is to be a white person in Zimbabwe now. We all react to the similar situations differently and just because some people react a certain way when subjected to abuse or prejudice that doesn't mean everyone else will react the same way.

 

[Dark Sharks]

I think his reply was poorly worded and wasn't intended to mean that while people can't also be racially abused, but he can address that himself.

The game in question was Indigenous round which likely goes some way to explaining his reaction. In any event, just because other players can brush off racial abuse doesn't mean they should all be required to.

Goodes was clearly distraught after the siren, but was classy enough to speak up later and say people should be concerned about the girl and she shouldn't be targeted.

I think you've got this all pretty wrong, personally

I think isolated incidents can hardly be compared to what Goodes is receiving currently. People have their reasons for booing him, his AOTY speech and the 13 year old girl incident but often they misquote or select certain parts of his speech to suit their argument rather than using the whole speech, because as a whole the speech is actually very kind and about unity.

The 13 year old girl incident, I mean I don't think any non indigenous person can truly understand how an indigenous person feels when they are subjected to racial abuse, just like no non slave could understand how it was to be a slave or how any non persecuted person could understand how it is to be a white person in Zimbabwe now. We all react to the similar situations differently and just because some people react a certain way when subjected to abuse or prejudice that doesn't mean everyone else will react the same way.

I wasn't suggesting he should 'brush it off'. But follow it up in the correct manner, so not to create a public outcry and this massive shit storm.

The point i was making, is that his reaction to that incident, has prompted the vitriol he recieves today.

Some people react differently sure. Goodes reacted that way, and now the crowd is reacting THIS way. Cause and effect.

I guarantee you that if the 13yr old girl incident had not happened, and was dealt with in the "usual" manner i described earlier, that girl would most likely be banned from games, Goodes would not be receiving any of the booing that he does today and playing normally, and we wouldn't be in this circle jerk.

 

[tesseract]

Three people liked this post? That's embarrassing.

Embarrassing for the professional victims aka SJW's.

 

[truman]

I wasn't suggesting he should 'brush it off'. But follow it up in the correct manner, so not to create a public outcry and this massive shit storm.

The point i was making, is that his reaction to that incident, has prompted the vitriol he recieves today.

Some people react differently sure. Goodes reacted that way, and now the crowd is reacting THIS way. Cause and effect.

I guarantee you that if the 13yr old girl incident had not happened, and was dealt with in the "usual" manner i described earlier, that girl would most likely be banned from games, Goodes would not be receiving any of the booing that he does today and playing normally, and we wouldn't be in this circle jerk.

But that's really not the result we want. We want her to be educated not punished. All Adam Goodes did was point out someone making a racist remark. He then went on to say "People need to get around her. She's 13, she's uneducated. If she wants to pick up the phone and call me, I'll take the call … I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night. It's not a witch hunt. I don't want people to go after this girl."

The girl ended up getting punished, not because of Adam Goodes, but because the Herald Sun published her name and face. Everyone asks, why did Goodes point her out? It was in the heat of the moment. Why did he talk about her the next morning? Because her name and face had already been published.

People should be asking, why did the Herald Sun value a story and some money over a little girls well being and show absolutely no journalistic integrity?

There was no heat of the moment for a bunch of editors and writers. If no one asks the right questions the right answer will never be uncovered.

Don't you think what ever negative outcomes the girl suffered are a greater result of her details being published than anything Adam Goodes did in the heat of the moment?

As far as Goodes is getting what he deserved by pointing her out, we will just have to disagree. My POV is that people are punishing him because he didn't react the way he should have. But how on earth would the majority of people know how he should have reacted?

 

[Dark Sharks]

But that's really not the result we want. We want her to be educated not punished. All Adam Goodes did was point out someone making a racist remark. He then went on to say "People need to get around her. She's 13, she's uneducated. If she wants to pick up the phone and call me, I'll take the call … I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night. It's not a witch hunt. I don't want people to go after this girl."

The girl ended up getting punished, not because of Adam Goodes, but because the Herald Sun published her name and face. Everyone says why did Goodes point her out, it was in the heat of the moment. Why did he talk about her the next morning? Because her name and face had already been published.

People should be asking why did the Herald Sun chase a story and some money by publishing her name and face rather than care about her well being and show some journalistic integrity?

Depends on how you look at it. It's not like dealing with it in that manner was going to instantly have it forgotten. I'd have expected Goodes to draw on it and highlight it from the moment he gets into politics once he retires.... "I was once called an Ape by a 13yr old girl during a football game, she didn't know what she was saying, this highlights the lack of education when it comes to racism in this country, i think we should do this......" etc etc.

He could use the incident all he wants, and educate/spread the word/give voice to, whatever you want to call it, but in the most effective and appropriate way without everything that this has become.

Right now people are looking at it as simply as this. A grown man was called an ape by a young girl. The young girl is humiliated on national television, evicted from the football game and questioned by police whilst her mother did not know what was going on. The grown man continued playing football.

It doesn't look good. As it stands he's pretty much upset half the country because of it.

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

I wasn't suggesting he should 'brush it off'. But follow it up in the correct manner, so not to create a public outcry and this massive shit storm.

The point i was making, is that his reaction to that incident, has prompted the vitriol he recieves today.

Some people react differently sure. Goodes reacted that way, and now the crowd is reacting THIS way. Cause and effect.

I guarantee you that if the 13yr old girl incident had not happened, and was dealt with in the "usual" manner i described earlier, that girl would most likely be banned from games, Goodes would not be receiving any of the booing that he does today and playing normally, and we wouldn't be in this circle jerk.

What's the 'correct' way to follow up someone offending and upsetting you in front of a crowd of 65,000? And if there is a correct way, why is he being criticised for his possibly incorrect reaction in the moment, that was followed up with more 'correct' statements of concern for the girl?

And if that's truly the cause of the booing, why did it only start in season 2015, 18 months after the incident?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Depends on how you look at it. It's not like dealing with it in that manner was going to instantly have it forgotten. I'd have expected Goodes to draw on it and highlight it from the moment he gets into politics once he retires.... "I was once called an Ape by a 13yr old girl during a football game, she didn't know what she was saying, this highlights the lack of education when it comes to racism in this country, i think we should do this......" etc etc.

He could use the incident all he wants, and educate/spread the word/give voice to, whatever you want to call it, but in the most effective and appropriate way without everything that this has become.

Right now people are looking at it as simply as this. A grown man was called an ape by a young girl. The young girl is humiliated on national television, evicted from the football game and questioned by police whilst her mother did not know what was going on. The grown man continued playing football.

It doesn't look good. As it stands he's pretty much upset half the country because of it.

In fact the grown man went and wandered around the change rooms looking distraught while his teammates celebrated the win.

 

[Dark Sharks]

In fact the grown man went and wandered around the change rooms looking distraught while his teammates celebrated the win.

Were you there? Because we know how legitimate and how much integrity the media has shown over the course of this debacle don't we?

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Were you there? Because we know how legitimate and how much integrity the media has shown over the course of this debacle don't we?

No but I saw the footage at the time.

Unless you're suggesting the media has so little integrity that they somehow fabricated it?

 

[malkolm]

Can we get a 'Why did you boo Goodes' poll on this thread?

I'd be amazed if anyone chooses the 'Because he's a darkie' option.

 

[truman]

Depends on how you look at it. It's not like dealing with it in that manner was going to instantly have it forgotten. I'd have expected Goodes to draw on it and highlight it from the moment he gets into politics once he retires.... "I was once called an Ape by a 13yr old girl during a football game, she didn't know what she was saying, this highlights the lack of education when it comes to racism in this country, i think we should do this......" etc etc.

He could use the incident all he wants, and educate/spread the word/give voice to, whatever you want to call it, but in the most effective and appropriate way without everything that this has become.

Right now people are looking at it as simply as this. A grown man was called an ape by a young girl. The young girl is humiliated on national television, evicted from the football game and questioned by police whilst her mother did not know what was going on. The grown man continued playing football.

It doesn't look good. As it stands he's pretty much upset half the country because of it.

This will be last post discussing this with you, not because I'm angry just because I don't think I've much else to say. I think we differ on a couple of critical points, that is I don't think I can understand what was going through Adam Goodes is mind when he heard that remark (because of Indigenous history with Australia) in which real reconciliation has really only begun since the Red Fern speech. Of course you may disagree with me regarding Redfern but I think we both agree it wasn't until past 1950 that anything resembling reconciliation was developed. From what I gather you expected Adam Goodes to let it go, because of her age, but again I feel he wouldn't have been thinking that clearly at the time.

What I really don't understand is that you seem to apportion all the blame on Goodes when in my eyes I apportion all the blame on the media for publishing her details. I believe that Adam Goodes is not responsible for any negative outcomes that befell the girl. That goes to both her parents/family/teachers who had not provided with her the knowledge that some words and phrases are inherently wrong and the media for publishing her details.

Either way I feel this discussion is one the country needs.

 

[jakethebear]

I would love it if this week- Multicultural Round- if for each game the clubs/the afl arranged for 3 or four young children. A 'white' child, a child of aboriginal descent, a child from Asian decent, and maybe even a child from middle eastern descent. After the game, all four children walk around the field with the winning team, holding hands.

I don't know if its just me being sentimental, but it would be a nice symbolic gesture.

 

[Belltower]

No but I saw the footage at the time.

Unless you're suggesting the media has so little integrity that they somehow fabricated it?

Look at how they are reporting this at the moment. They keep showing the part where he kicks the goal and surprise surprise the boos are the loudest then. We thought there should have been a free kick that is why the boos were so loud

 

[tumtum]

Depends on how you look at it. It's not like dealing with it in that manner was going to instantly have it forgotten. I'd have expected Goodes to draw on it and highlight it from the moment he gets into politics once he retires.... "I was once called an Ape by a 13yr old girl during a football game, she didn't know what she was saying, this highlights the lack of education when it comes to racism in this country, i think we should do this......" etc etc.

He could use the incident all he wants, and educate/spread the word/give voice to, whatever you want to call it, but in the most effective and appropriate way without everything that this has become.

Right now people are looking at it as simply as this. A grown man was called an ape by a young girl. The young girl is humiliated on national television, evicted from the football game and questioned by police whilst her mother did not know what was going on. The grown man continued playing football.

It doesn't look good. As it stands he's pretty much upset half the country because of it.

Do you think simply disagreeing with how he has gone about his activism should condemn him to be booed every time he steps onto a football field? So much so that it is affecting not only him but his whole team (as confirmed by Kieren Jack and Jarrad McVeigh today)? Is it proportional that it causes emotional distress for a large portion of the aboriginal community? Is it proportional that his mum cries every time she tries to watch him play on TV? And that other members of his family feels the same way? Is all that OK to you just because you don't like how he has handled some very complex situations?

 

[truman]

Look at how they are reporting this at the moment. They keep showing the part where he kicks the goal and surprise surprise the boos are the loudest then. We thought there should have been a free kick that is why the boos were so loud

No doubt but then do you agree that it was the Media responsible for naming and shaming the 13 yr old girl?

 

[Belltower]

I would love it if this week- Multicultural Round- if for each game the clubs/the afl arranged for 3 or four young children. A 'white' child, a child of aboriginal descent, a child from Asian decent, and maybe even a child from middle eastern descent. After the game, all four children walk around the field with the winning team, holding hands.

I don't know if its just me being sentimental, but it would be a nice symbolic gesture.

What about African, you missed them. Majak Daw would be offended

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

Look at how they are reporting this at the moment. They keep showing the part where he kicks the goal and surprise surprise the boos are the loudest then. We thought there should have been a free kick that is why the boos were so loud

True, but I actually watched the footage of him wandering around the dressing room by himself looking distraught in the final stages of the Collingwood match. How are you suggesting they manipulated that?

 

[Dark Sharks]

True, but I actually watched the footage of him wandering around the dressing room by himself looking distraught in the final stages of the Collingwood match. How are you suggesting they manipulated that?

Parallax error?

 

[Belltower]

No doubt but then do you agree that it was the Media responsible for naming and shaming the 13 yr old girl?

I actually don't care about that event at all, it was racist comment, it was sorted out and is done. I still think he is a tool, my opinion, but the whole point of our argument is that he and others claim that the booing is racially motivated, which it is wasn't. He maybe offended by the booing and I don't care if he is because he needs to get over himself and stop acting bigger than the game. I hope he does retire because he will forever go down in history as a sook now.

 

[greennick]

Honestly I don't think it's my, yours or anyone else's right to be determining what he has a right to get offended at considering history. Yes many things happened more than a century ago but significant steps towards reconciliation have only happened recently. I mean it wasn't until 1992 that an Australian leader acknowledged that land and more importantly lives had been taken.

Well the thing about bringing people together is that they've all got to want to. We all have a tendency of picking quotes and facts to suit our arguments. Case in point the below quote. If people want to come together they will focus on this quote, if people want to hate and leave things as status quo they'll always go back to "face of racism".

"People need to get around her. She's 13, she's uneducated. If she wants to pick up the phone and call me, I'll take the call … I've got no doubt in my mind she's got no idea what she was calling me last night. It's not a witch hunt. I don't want people to go after this girl." - Adam Goodes 2013

To be honest, I kind of agree with you. I'm having a bob each way. I understand why he was hurt and it is not my place to determine whether he should be hurt, however by taking significant offence, he made it impossible to bring people together. The past few days I've looked into the philosophy and psychology of taking offence and what is the best way to get the desired outcome. It's very interesting reading.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Goodes retiring won't end this farce. It will just get worse and worse.

Media, politics, interviews... The media know it's a juicy debate at the moment at they'll milk it for all it's worth.

If he ends up walking away from the game due to boo's from the most recent clash at Subiaco.... oh my lord will we hear about it.

 

[truman]

To be honest, I kind of agree with you. I'm having a bob each way. I understand why he was hurt and it is not my place to determine whether he should be hurt, however by taking significant offence, he made it impossible to bring people together. The past few days I've looked into the philosophy and psychology of taking offence and what is the best way to get the desired outcome. It's very interesting reading.

Hmm wouldn't mind doing a bit of reading about these things as well. I'm of an ethnic background and a lot of my mates shout racism when things don't go their way, semi joking but I can honestly say I've never experienced any in my life. Would be interesting to see what offends people. I did live in an indigenous community and I honestly believe that they are the minority group in Australia with the best justification to make a noise.

 

[Schrodinger]

And yet anyone and everyone laughs in my face when i suggest Aboriginals calling me a white c*** all the time is racist.

It's a funny old world we live in isn't it?

Amazing how racism apparently only applies to a certain color. I will always rue the day i was born blonde and Caucasian, as i obviously have no rights.

According to you, if a person deems something racist, it is. Just not in my case?

Hey Dark Sharks, let me preface this by saying that I have been a lurker on the Eagles BF forum for ages and during this time you have been by far my favourite poster. I like anyone with a irreverent sense of humour. And I totally get why a lot of people are unhappy at how this topic has escalated (especially as an Eagles match was the flashpoint) and how they believe/know that they weren't booing out of racist reasons.

However the regular theme I am seeing in may of your posts and the posts of the others who share your point of view, is either inconsistent internal logic or a fundamental misunderstanding of how racism works. So, while I will continue to enjoy your posts regarding the Eagles specifically, I will continue to point out these strangely misguided comments I keep seeing in this thread, whether by you or the others who share your view.

I will address some of these points in subsequent posts to ensure that the specific points can be debated without getting muddled. However first let me make a couple of points which are general and not directed specifically at you -

- I have seen this topic played out with depressing predictability on my Facebook page and my closest friends have eerily noticed the exact same thing. I have around 400 or so Facebook "friends" (only about 100 of these are real life friends however). Prior to this incident, if you had asked me to list the dumbest 20 of these (whether based on EQ or IQ), strangely it is only these people who have taken an anti-Goodes stance. These are the same friends who complain about muslims/immigrants or any other topic where intelligence and compassion is required.

- I have even seen it posted by someone on Facebook pointing out the spooky correlation between spelling and grammar and degree of enmity towards Goodes. This really gives you pause to stop and think about what the root cause of racism is.

- The other universal feature of the anti-Goodes arguments is that they are largely based on straw man arguments or logical inconsistencies. The most common of these and the one which seems impervious to logic is the "If I am racist how come I don't boo all aboriginal players? It's because he is a flog!" argument. This one falls down immediately by pointing out a simple fact or two and then re-posing a question -

1. OK. So if we can agree that no player has been subjected to this level of enduring booing and vitriol by all opposition teams (and if we can't agree on that then the rest of the exchange becomes redundant and the person you are talking to should not be allowed to handle sharp objects), as you believe he is booed simply by being a flog, by that measure, he must surely be the biggest villain in the history of the game?

2. Another aspect of this particular debate is the "Well, Stephen Milne got booed after those rape charges and Wayne Carey got booed after he was caught sleeping with the wife of his captain". This is my favourite. Putting aside for a moment the fact that the booing of those guys didn't come close to what we have seen with Goodes, the first thing that becomes apparent here is that people are putting Goodes in the same category as a rapist for "not advocating for aboriginal rights in a way I deem appropriate" or "calling out a 13 year old girl for calling him an ape". The simple fact that people believe this should serve as a useful heuristic device for working out whether you are racist or not (as we would all agree, not one of the anti-Goodes crew has dared to openly admit this, so clearly there is self-deception at work)

No one in their right mind would argue that Goodes is the biggest villain/flog in the history of the game, yet here we are subjecting him to the worst example of sustained, systematic booing in recent history. Reconciling why that may be the case is problematic, which is why so many people have found this episode so troubling.

OK, next I will briefly address specific comments.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

posted this over in the goodes thread on the main board, but i think it's also relevant here

I've been mulling over this for a while...

I don't know why people boo goodes, there's obviously numerous reasons as shown in the thread poll. I'm real behind the times so I didn't even know he was being booed, I thought he was a generally well respected guy.

I haven't booed him & haven't even considered booing him until all this blew up following a west coast game. So I thought about all the reasons why I would be annoyed by goodes... in the latter part of his career as his skills/speed etc have diminished with age I feel like he's turned a lot more to diving & (felt similar about Cox tbh) & sniping, and I felt that happened several times in the west coast game. I also feel he whinges about frees/not getting frees & more often than not seems to get looked after by the umpires. I can see why people would see him as being protected. Accurate or not that's how I feel. Would I boo him? Probably not, but maybe if any instances like that occurred and I don't feel bad about that.

There's also the fact that he's been a brilliant player for many years & I think in general fans see him as a player they love to hate - Love how he plays the game, hate how he's helped beat our teams with his performances. For instance, I can't remember the last time west coast beat sydney, maybe even the 06 GF? It was a huge thing to finally get to beat them and wipe smile off someone who always seems to be the posterboy for all those wins.

I'm reluctant to say people shouldn't boo him because everyone loves booing a good villain and there's certainly some valid reasons to boo goodes... But then of course there's the racial ones. I'm happy he's a voice for indigenous Australians, I'm happy he's bringing indigenous issues to the foreground, I'm perfectly fine with him being AOTY, I can deal with him calling Australia day invasion day because for indigenous Australians that's what it was (why can't it be federation day instead?), and calling out that girl who called him an ape took courage, bummer that it turned out she was so young, but he wouldn't have known that & it's obviously something black players have had to deal with for some time and it's made us conscious that it's happening and it's wrong, it's made it a discussion point & that can only be a good thing. As for the spear dance, who cares how anyone wants to celebrate a goal, if he wants to do something culturally relevant to him then power to him.

It's really easy for me to sit back as a privileged white male and judge him for being a millionaire that isnt tough enough for put up with a couple of boos... but I think we need to put ourselves in his shoes. I don't know what it's like to be an indigenous Australian, I haven't had to deal with the prejudice he's faced & my family haven't had to deal with so many years of disadvantage (the white Australia policy wasn't that long ago). I haven't had to deal with people yelling racial slurs at me - even if only one person is racially abusing him amidst the boos it would put a different spin on what the boos meant to him. Surely we can empathise with him?

Anyways, I don't really know what the right answer to this whole thing is, it's obviously complex. Only thing I can say is if you're going to boo him, reflect on why you're going to do it - if it's about how he plays his game then boo to your hearts content... But if on thinking about it you realise there's maybe a racial component to it, & that's a harsh realisation to deal with because no one wants to label themselves a racist... Then maybe reassess your own personal beliefs & actions.

 

[Schrodinger]

And yet anyone and everyone laughs in my face when i suggest Aboriginals calling me a white c*** all the time is racist.

It's a funny old world we live in isn't it?

Amazing how racism apparently only applies to a certain color. I will always rue the day i was born blonde and Caucasian, as i obviously have no rights.

According to you, if a person deems something racist, it is. Just not in my case?

- You are partially right - racism is not the exclusive domain of Caucasians. For example, the Japanese (who I generally love dearly) are the most casually racist people in the world. Their whole immigration policy is probably the single most racist I have seen. They think Koreans and Chinese are beneath them. Using the strictest definition, yes if an aborigine calls you a white c**t he is being "racist". This is the single most over used counter argument I see on this general topic "Person X who had dark skin called me a white so and so". It misses the point of why racism makes compassionate people uncomfortable, because racism involves the majority not giving the minority a fair go, based on their merits. To be honest, I wouldn't give a toss whether you went around returning the favour by calling aborigines "black ****", as long as you then gave them a fair go in a job interview or had no problems with your son/daughter marrying one.

- Or to put this another way, let's assume that every single aborigine alive was completely racist (wouldn't give you a job or a fair go, treated you like crap etc). To what degree would that affect your life? Your job prospects? Think about that for a moment and you will have the answer for why minorities need to be afforded special protection.