Brett Burton

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WFL said:
Well in a normal workplace most employees would be instantly dismissed after an incident like the camp so that renders your argument invalid.
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But in reality, At that level, most employees would be given a chance to improve and have training provided. if they then fail to improve the are removed.
Remember Burton is not High-level management, he is middle management he a department head. The High levels are Fagan CEO and Smart COO.
 

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WFL said:
That would result in exhaustion.
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Yeah, but what can you do? This is a physically punishing game we're talking about, and he knew that when he got into it. If the strain this puts on his body forces him into early retirement, that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
 
El Doederino said:
I have plenty of FI how large organisations work. Particularly successful ones. They don't succeed because staff act like whiney little bitches and moan about others in the organisation to a bunch of schoolgirls who can't wait to pass it on purple monkey dishwasher
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If this is an example of the culture of the organisations where you have experience, then we have a different definition of what 'successful' means.
 
John Who said:
I think we have been extremely judgmental of Burton this year on the team's poor showing, the injury toll, and his lack of Media nous when speaking in the midyear conference with Pyke (where most would agree Pyke handled it much better and showing more awareness of fault).

Personally, I think Burton should be given notice that things need to be handled better for next year, or he will get the marching order. Before then, I think it's important to rationalise some points:

- Burton (and Hass) was here at the start of 2017. The year we had made the Grand Final with a decent injury toll. Had we won the GF, Burton and Pyke might had been hailed as the 2 new Crows Messiahs (along with Blight).

- you can't just fire one person for a whole year of mess. Often big messes involve many factors and/or many people, not just one.

- if it was that obvious the season was a shambles due to Burton, and Burton alone, then I think the club would have acted on common sense to discharge Burton from his role.

- following the point from above, if the club knew it was completely Burton's fault (and noone else's), and decided to still keep him, then the whole club hierarchy deserve to have their contracts terminated also!
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- we made the Grand Final in spite of a poor year injury wise. 2018 was more public as it had a bigger impact due to involving better and higher profile players. In the GF there were a lot of players cooked and carrying injuries, which is a huge reason behind the loss. Any win would have been despite Burton and Haas' efforts, not because of them.

- yes you can, and it happens. A head coach gets the boot all the time for underperformance.

- it was a high percentage, and they should have acted in common sense by ending his association with the club.
 
My biggest concern for the AFC is, has been, and remains its perceived "culture" problem.
The whole structure of the club puts us at a disadvantage to the better run Vic clubs.
Burton is clearly a very poor operator at the very least....just what we dont need after struggling to overcome the lingering effects of Trigg.
After getting so much right...it will be heartbreaking to see it wasted by mismanagement.
You could hardly accuse the Western Bulldogs of being an "elite" club with a perfect list....but here we are...they have a recent premiership and we don't.
They were prepared to bleed for each other....while our team lacks unity.
It hurts to feel so powerless....deep down we all suspect there is a issue...but we cant do a thing about it.
 
newbie_kimber said:
- we made the Grand Final in spite of a poor year injury wise. 2018 was more public as it had a bigger impact due to involving better and higher profile players. In the GF there were a lot of players cooked and carrying injuries, which is a huge reason behind the loss. Any win would have been despite Burton and Haas' efforts, not because of them.

- yes you can, and it happens. A head coach gets the boot all the time for underperformance.

- it was a high percentage, and they should have acted in common sense by ending his association with the club.
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The grand final loss was influenced by selection throughout the year. If you remember there was numerous opportunities to rest players throughout the season and within the last 6 weeks prior to the grand final. Pyke or the selection committee choose to not do this and ran particular players into the ground when carrying niggling injuries which caused bigger injuries. It stems back to match committee's philosophy that an injured experienced player is better than youth. This was a major factor for our loss on Grand final day. Also the decision to play Otten was pure stupidity. Would have picked an 80% fit mcgovern over otten any day of the week or pretty much anyone suitable on our list.
 
WFL said:
Well in a normal workplace most employees would be instantly dismissed after an incident like the camp so that renders your argument invalid.
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There's plenty of incompetent people who get away with all sorts of shit in businesses across the world. We've got a projec at my work that is 18 months and millions over budget because people in charge have no clue. Guess how many people have been held responsible for it?
 
newbie_kimber said:
- we made the Grand Final in spite of a poor year injury wise. 2018 was more public as it had a bigger impact due to involving better and higher profile players. In the GF there were a lot of players cooked and carrying injuries, which is a huge reason behind the loss. Any win would have been despite Burton and Haas' efforts, not because of them.

- yes you can, and it happens. A head coach gets the boot all the time for underperformance.

- it was a high percentage, and they should have acted in common sense by ending his association with the club.
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All I'm saying is that you can't put an entire blame on a person for a disastrous year, and choose to ignore their role in the involvement of how bloody brilliant our 2017 was! Sure, we did a few poor selections, and then there were injured regulars like Smith and McGovern, which helped to screw up that year. Though team selections would have very little to do with Burton.
But no matter how you look at it, Burton was involved in 2017 just as much as he was involved in 2018.
 

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MRB37 said:
There's plenty of incompetent people who get away with all sorts of shit in businesses across the world. We've got a projec at my work that is 18 months and millions over budget because people in charge have no clue. Guess how many people have been held responsible for it?
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I think people are equating a footy club like other corporate businesses, which I don't believe is necessarily fair. People can lay claim of knowing business models all they want, but with footy clubs, we're talking of factors that are simply beyond anyone's control - luck (umpiring decisions, MRP suspensions etc) and injuries (collision-type and random tendon tears occurring each year to any team).

With business models, you more or less can predict illnesses/sickies per given year. Footy departments there is a real element of unknown.
Unless it's a monumental stuff up, a footy department can't just quickly change with the snap of a finger. There needs a period of few months to see what change in results have occurred. I think the last half of the year with 6W3L after the bye had helped Burton keep his job, as there was definitely a trend of lessened injuries and results going back in the right kind of direction. Next year will be the real moment of truth, if injuries actually have improved or not.
 
John Who said:
I think people are equating a footy club like other corporate businesses, which I don't believe is necessarily fair. People can lay claim of knowing business models all they want, but with footy clubs, we're talking of factors that are simply beyond anyone's control - luck (umpiring decisions, MRP suspensions etc) and injuries (collision-type and random tendon tears occurring each year to any team).

With business models, you more or less can predict illnesses/sickies per given year.
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GFC, economic downturn, monopolised contracts ie your major contractor goes bust, fires, etc

I think the problem is that people still think of footy clubs as footy clubs. In the AFL there should indeed be a business model and a business approach. Hiring friends and former players is ok to retain a sense of connection to the past but they also need to pass the competency test.

Being a good bloke is ok serving behind the bar, it shouldnt be a criteria to make crucial decisions on players and other staff
 
GreyCrow said:
GFC, economic downturn, monopolised contracts ie your major contractor goes bust, fires, etc

I think the problem is that people still think of footy clubs as footy clubs. In the AFL there should indeed be a business model and a business approach. Hiring friends and former players is ok to retain a sense of connection to the past but they also need to pass the competency test.

Being a good bloke is ok serving behind the bar, it shouldnt be a criteria to make crucial decisions on players and other staff
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I know what you're getting at, and I don't know what's more right. Hiring the best manager with little past connection to our club, or hiring a pretty good manager with a lot of club relevance?

Though the above is a different issue to: Should we fire Burton after the year in 2018, knowing that he did a decent job in being part of our GF appearance in 2017?

More so, I believe we should be looking at questions like:
- does Burton deserve to be fired when it was really mainly a month of bad results (rounds 10-13)?
- have we given Burton (and fitness staff as a whole) an actual chance to redeem himself?
 
John Who said:
I know what you're getting at, and I don't know what's more right. Hiring the best manager with little past connection to our club, or hiring a pretty good manager with a lot of club relevance?

Though the above is a different issue to: Should we fire Burton after the year in 2018, knowing that he did a decent job in being part of our GF appearance in 2017?

More so, I believe we should be looking at questions like:
- does Burton deserve to be fired when it was really mainly a month of bad results (rounds 10-13)?
- have we given Burton (and fitness staff as a whole) an actual chance to redeem himself?
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You cant narrow the focus to 4 rounds of football.

To be fair the football stuff rolls along with or without Burton. Burton being footy ops doesnt get us into a GF nor does it keep us out.

There can only be redemption if the problems were unforeseen. Yet all reports suggest it was the misapplication of the Kangatech property that caused the overload injuries. I also acknowledge the players returning in poor shape. ( yet to this day we still dont know who or how many to make an assessment on this)
 
GreyCrow said:
You cant narrow the focus to 4 rounds of football.

To be fair the football stuff rolls along with or without Burton. Burton being footy ops doesnt get us into a GF nor does it keep us out.

There can only be redemption if the problems were unforeseen. Yet all reports suggest it was the misapplication of the Kangatech property that caused the overload injuries. I also acknowledge the players returning in poor shape. ( yet to this day we still dont know who or how many to make an assessment on this)
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Well then I can equally counter and say you can't narrow the focus of firing one person for an entire season of chaos.
When you're talking about injuries, everyone can potentially contribute to the cause:
- Kangatech machine itself
- misapplication of the technology by fitness staff
- players themselves - rocking up in bad shape preseason; players overloading themselves during on-season with extra private training; or players trying to push their limits during a match
- coaches - poor team selection of semi-fit players; pushing players too hard with known niggles during a match
- medical staff, not enough thoroughness with the rehab or with the medical clearance checks

Everyone needs to be looked at in improving injury prevention at a global level around the whole club. If we're just looking to put blame on one guy and ignore others, it could easily happen again next year with a new Head of Football in charge, with faults still happening underneath the potential new guy.
 
John Who said:
More so, I believe we should be looking at questions like:
- does Burton deserve to be fired when it was really mainly a month of bad results (rounds 10-13)?
- have we given Burton (and fitness staff as a whole) an actual chance to redeem himself?
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Has he?

Its now more than 1 month of bad results.

Our fitness levels must be questioned (based on the GPS data in another thread) , our selection methods must be questioned and our list management must be questioned

Is Brett individually responsible for each of these departments? Not directly but as Football manager he is the driver of ALL of these areas.
 
I have heard from a father of an aflw girl, most don't like him very arrogant.

Personally I want him gone. Doesn't surprise me at all.
 
GreyCrow said:
Has he?

Its now more than 1 month of bad results.

Our fitness levels must be questioned (based on the GPS data in another thread) , our selection methods must be questioned and our list management must be questioned

Is Brett individually responsible for each of these departments? Not directly but as Football manager he is the driver of ALL of these areas.
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With the addition of Saunders, I’m not exactly sure what role Burton has now. Though we can say injuries have certainly improved since last year.

Regarding fitness, it’s a hard one to be objective about. We seem to be doing ok in the first half then get beaten in the second half. Is this pattern a fitness thing or a mental thing, or perhaps both? I feel it’s more a mental thing (by the players) or a gameplan breakdown (by our opponents).

Purely poor fitness would see us likely to be:
- losing in each quarter (this has not been the case)
- have less forward entries/scoring shots than our opponents (again, not been the case)
 
John Who said:
With the addition of Saunders, I’m not exactly sure what role Burton has now. Though we can say injuries have certainly improved since last year.

Regarding fitness, it’s a hard one to be objective about. We seem to be doing ok in the first half then get beaten in the second half. Is this pattern a fitness thing or a mental thing, or perhaps both? I feel it’s more a mental thing (by the players) or a gameplan breakdown (by our opponents).

Purely poor fitness would see us likely to be:
- losing in each quarter (this has not been the case)
- have less forward entries/scoring shots than our opponents (again, not been the case)
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Like most other people, I have no real insight into whether Hass and Burton are competent or incompetent at their roles, but this I do know - Steve Saunders is an elite operator in his field, and would be sought after all over the world for his skills. He isn't going to hang around if the Crows continue to be a circus. He has been working for 30 odd years to get the reputation he has, and he would not want his good name to be associated with a club that is about to drop off the cliff into irrelevance.
 

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