Bryce Gibbs - best 2 way player in the competition?

[blues4flag]

Has been given a new role this season in playing primarily a shut down role on the opposition's best player while hurting them the other way.

Many opposition supporters have claimed he's being wasted as a tagger, but is it really tagging in the traditional sense? He's much more a run with player and doing it brilliantly at present. Ironically, was repeatedly called a downhill skier alongside the rest of our team last year, but he's showing himself to be anything but (as they all have).

In the past month:

vs. Sydney:
Goodes: 13 touches (worst for the season), 0 goals (1 of two goalless games)
Gibbs: 19 touches

vs. St. Kilda:
Goddard: 16 touches, 1 goal
Gibbs: 26 touches, 2 goals

vs. Geelong:
played on Steve Johnson in the second half after Russell struggled
Stevie J: 5 touches in second half (19 for game), 1 goal (3 for game)
Gibbs: 9 touches (22 for game)

vs. Melbourne:
Moloney: 15 touches
Gibbs: 27 touches

As you can see, he does a great job negating the opposition's best/most damaging player (at worst, top 3 for each team) while managing to rack it up himself.

 

[bulletproof]

Enright and Heath Shaw do the same thing every week from the back flank, is that any different?

 

[forwardflanker]

lol @ tagger no 1. draft picks

and lol @ this thread

 

[the dog's kennel]

Gibbs is obviously having a great patch, and is a good player.

But I don't see how this role you describe isn't tagging "in the traditional sense". Isn't it exactly what tagging has been about for ages?

That's exactly what Ling used to do years ago.

In fact I would say since Old Libba retired the vast majority of taggers have played this role. You simply can't afford to waste a midfield slot on pure negation.

 

[blues4flag]

Gibbs is obviously having a great patch, and is a good player.

But I don't see how this role you describe isn't tagging "in the traditional sense". Isn't it exactly what tagging has been about for ages?

That's exactly what Ling used to do years ago.

In fact I would say since Old Libba retired the vast majority of taggers have played this role. You simply can't afford to waste a midfield slot on pure negation.

That's a fair point, but when people shit-can him for being a tagger (see characteristic Collingwood supporter in post 3), it's because they view him as a purely negating player who forgoes his influence on the game to stop somebody else.

It's still got that negative stigma attached to it, with guys like Ling and Kornes viewed as exceptions rather than the norm. The majority either didn't find much of the footy, or didn't do much with it when they did (can probably include Kornes in that latter category).

What make Gibbs different than your ordinary accumulating tagger type is that he's far more damaging with his disposal than most. He's the sort of guy that you don't want the ball in his hands but by playing on the opposition's most dangerous player, he avoids getting paid much attention himself and just ends up racking it up.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I don't think he's necessarily the best 2-way player in the game, but the sort of match-ups he's able to win are extremely influential to your cause.

Guys like Goddard and Goodes are almost impossible to tag out of a game because if you shut them out with a running player, they'll move forward of the play and out-mark their opponent. Put a tall on them and they'll run up the ground and rack up 20 kicks and 15 handpasses. Often you'll notice with a Goddard or Goodes that if the disposals are down, the marks and goals are up. Gibbs has a great record against them and isn't vulnerable to that strategy.

So I guess the reason for the criticism is that you've got a #1 draft pick with these attributes - why is he not running riot and influencing games to the point the opposition are worried about him in a Goddard/Goodes sort of way.

 

[Wickzki]

So I guess the reason for the criticism is that you've got a #1 draft pick with these attributes - why is he not running riot and influencing games to the point the opposition are worried about him in a Goddard/Goodes sort of way.

Before I start I want to point out that I believe Luke Hodge when in full flight is marginally ahead of Gibbs in this respect.

Gibbs doesn't have to run riot. He is getting his possessions and is influencing games to the level that we expect. How many Judd and Murphy type players does a team need? We also have Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Robinson, etc. getting a lot of possession as well. When Gibbs racks up his numbers he is generally using it extremely well - lace out type stuff.

For Gibbs it's playing the team to it's strengths. If he can get more of the ball than his opponent (which is certainly the case) and is winning his matchup against some of the biggest names in the game then he's doing what we expect him to do. Perhaps in a year or so when the likes of Scotland retire he'll have to carry more of the possession winning responsibility. Until then he's doing everything asked of him.

 

[NobleBlood]

Can't any half decent player tag? Nick Smith is like a 50 gamer Swan who does an effective job on a tonne of quality players. Yeah there are a few who are better than others, but none of these statistics are very compelling. For example it was raining like crazy against the Swans which nullified Goodes' marking ability at CHF.

Goddard has struggled on most oponnents this year. Half a game of footy against S.Johnson isn't a fair measurement, though I admit that the numbers are good for Gibbs in that game. The only one of those games I think was impressive was against Moloney, but that was in a pretty heavy Melbourne defeat.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Before I start I want to point out that I believe Luke Hodge when in full flight is marginally ahead of Gibbs in this respect.

Gibbs doesn't have to run riot. He is getting his possessions and is influencing games to the level that we expect. How many Judd and Murphy type players does a team need? We also have Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Robinson, etc. getting a lot of possession as well. When Gibbs racks up his numbers he is generally using it extremely well - lace out type stuff.

For Gibbs it's playing the team to it's strengths. If he can get more of the ball than his opponent (which is certainly the case) and is winning his matchup against some of the biggest names in the game then he's doing what we expect him to do. Perhaps in a year or so when the likes of Scotland retire he'll have to carry more of the possession winning responsibility. Until then he's doing everything asked of him.

Yep, Hodge is a good example to add to the list. Those guys around 6'3" - 6'4" who can play quite tall, but have huge tanks and elite disposal (Goodes iffy, but also taller).

I take your point about Gibbs playing his role, and it's true that the Blues have probably got the biggest collection of ball-magnets in the league. But look at the Saints of the last 2-3 years. Hayes, Montagna, Dal Santo, (Ball), and Jones through the middle. Gram, Fisher and Gilbert off half-back. Riewoldt up forward. Those guys all won a huge amount of the footy, but it didn't stop Goddard being the dynamic match-winner.

I'd still be very happy with how Gibbs is going, and it's not knock on him that he's playing a run-with role. I just think we all heard of this potential from when he was about 15 yrs old. Inevitably he went at #1, and now he's pretty much shown he has all the attributes to be a match winner. Run-with players are still needed, but is it the best way to maximize his impact on the game? Or is this just a phase before he reaches that point? Going back to Goddard, it took him quite a while to find his best position and start to really dominate.

 

[Wickzki]

I think you nailed it with the question of it being the phase before he reaches that point to be honest with you. The question isn't "has Gibbs got it?" because we all know that he has. When they first played him at half back the immediate thought that occurred to me was that they were forcing him to have a defensive side to his game -- which he clearly lacked. However, more so that he would learn the tactics that defensive taggers would be using on him in the years to come.

He was arguably the biggest downhill skier in the team in 2009 when we first made the finals. He'd get most of his possessions on the wing with some coming through the middle and up towards the forward fifty and that'd be Gibbs game in a nutshell. This has really taught him how to use the complete ground to his advantage. The best comparison that I can make would be to compare him to teaching a netballer (with their specific zones, not insinuating that Gibbs is feminist) how to play basketball.

Going back to what I said - this education of Gibbs has been perfect because of what I wrote in my earlier post - Carlton have been blessed with having a lot of marquee ball winners. It's not as though Gibbs isn't getting his disposals as that'd be an outright lie. He's averaging 23.4 per game so it isn't as though he' simply a specialist tagger. It's just that he isn't playing the dominant game. With our team he doesn't have to. Educate him in how to play a two way game all over the field now and when you need him to dominate he'll be ready. (That and his body wont be wrecked from having to be the one tagged out of games early on in his career, eg. Adam Cooney (to a certain point), Brock McLean, among a number of others).

 

[Judd2Sewell]

Before I start I want to point out that I believe Luke Hodge when in full flight is marginally ahead of Gibbs in this respect.

Gibbs doesn't have to run riot. He is getting his possessions and is influencing games to the level that we expect. How many Judd and Murphy type players does a team need? We also have Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Robinson, etc. getting a lot of possession as well. When Gibbs racks up his numbers he is generally using it extremely well - lace out type stuff.

For Gibbs it's playing the team to it's strengths. If he can get more of the ball than his opponent (which is certainly the case) and is winning his matchup against some of the biggest names in the game then he's doing what we expect him to do. Perhaps in a year or so when the likes of Scotland retire he'll have to carry more of the possession winning responsibility. Until then he's doing everything asked of him.

I'm assuming it's because I'm tired, but I don't quite get the point you're making regarding Hodge there. Hodge has MUCH more of a presence on the pitch than Gibbs and is the one that cops the tag, or 'minder' week in week out. He moves around the park wherever he's needed most and does more than his job... He's inspirational in his play, and his skill set is second-to-none at Hawthorn.

Anyway as for Gibbs, half the 'tactical' battle thesedays is to simply keep the ball off your opponents: If they don't have it they can't score. And the best way for sides to do that is get it in the hands of their best users. Gibbs is undoubtedly one of the best kicks in the AFL, and people who complain about the impact he has on games need to look a little deeper... He doesn't need to crunch bodies or steam-roll through packs, he just needs to get the ball moving the right direction and scoring chances will be created.

Let Judd dish out the hard-ball, let Murphy burst out of packs, let Simpson bust his nut running down the ground and let Gibbs keep the ball flowing the right way - and in Carlton's hands.

 

[Big Sledge #32]

He is annoying the shit out of my SC team, he keeps tagging my players (Goodes/Goddard) & is getting crap scores as he isn't free enough.*







*I do agree he is doing a good team role at the moment, just a little SC venting.

 

[m7jebus]

Gibbs is in good touch at the mo, but it's a little soon to start labelling him the best 'two-way player' IMO. You could argue he's the most skillful guy in this role, and one of the more versatile in that he seems to be able to take athletic, decent-sized forwards as well as outright midfielders.

 

[THE_GUN]

Do you think that some of these possesions gibbs gets is because he is the allocated defence player that gets the kick out duties ?

also the link up player coming back out of defence

Statts can be so so decieving sometimes but he is good for dream teamers i suppose.

 

[bulletproof]

My god Carlton supporters are desperate for their side to be taken seriously, embarrassing really.

 

[refresh]

My god Carlton supporters are desperate for their side to be taken seriously, embarrassing really.

i would be disappointed if Freo used their overall pick one to choose a tagger

 

[tazhawk]

Before I start I want to point out that I believe Luke Hodge when in full flight is marginally ahead of Gibbs in this respect.

Gibbs doesn't have to run riot. He is getting his possessions and is influencing games to the level that we expect. How many Judd and Murphy type players does a team need? We also have Carrazzo, Scotland, Simpson, Robinson, etc. getting a lot of possession as well. When Gibbs racks up his numbers he is generally using it extremely well - lace out type stuff.

For Gibbs it's playing the team to it's strengths. If he can get more of the ball than his opponent (which is certainly the case) and is winning his matchup against some of the biggest names in the game then he's doing what we expect him to do. Perhaps in a year or so when the likes of Scotland retire he'll have to carry more of the possession winning responsibility. Until then he's doing everything asked of him.

I'm assuming it's because I'm tired, but I don't quite get the point you're making regarding Hodge there. Hodge has MUCH more of a presence on the pitch than Gibbs and is the one that cops the tag, or 'minder' week in week out. He moves around the park wherever he's needed most and does more than his job... He's inspirational in his play, and his skill set is second-to-none at Hawthorn.

Carlton supporters read this reply.

Spot on.

Insult to compare Gibbs to the AA captain and NSM.

 

[King Kieran]

Im a big Carlton fan, and dont oubt Gibbs ability, but I would be happy to request a trade with Adelaide

Gibbs to Adelaide > Dangerfield to Carlton

 

[piesaregreat]

That Carlton are using a number one draft pick to play a role as well as most teams similar type position player who was drafted around round three suggests either Gibbs was overvalued or hasnt produced.

Isn't he doing exactly what sixteen other players do? The go-to HBF who receives the kickout? Collingwood had Ryan Lonie do the exact same role.

 

[King Kieran]

I do think hes a better number one draft pick then Josh Fraser!

 

[SIDE BY SIDE]

I do think hes a better number one draft pick then Josh Fraser!

Yes and a better tagger to.

 

[leons magic]

To me Bryce Gibbs is a good player with above average footskills, who is overhyped by many. I would never criticise Carlton for selecting him at pick 1 because at the time he was clearly the standout junior player in the land. However in hindsight Joel Selwood is undoubtedly the better prospect for mine. He has that will for the contest that Gibbs doesn't seem to have, and if Bryce attacked the ball in such a way he does have physical and technical attributes to be an elite player, although this is not a trait that can easily be taught.

Bryce regardless of his role has never looked like taking a game by the scruff of the neck, and to those who say Carlton has other players to do this thats fine but i do not think Gibbs could do this even if that was his role in the team.

Gibbs has above average footskills but they are not elite in my opinion, he is a neat kick that rarely makes a mistake, is good either side however he is not a damaging kick that slices through teams like say a Luke Hodge, or a Nathan Buckley of his time who could drill 55 meter passes and hit people running full tilt on the chest.

Gibbs has never been a hard player and as many will mention that is not his role, he has improved in this area since his early days and is much better in at the contest than he used to be. To me though it looks like he lacks that fire in the belly for a contest and hard ball that only the real elite players seem to have.

Whilst Gibbs is good in most areas, he has no standout feature to his game that is elite. As for his role at the moment he is a tagger, no matter how you try to put it, he is being played on the better opposition players to try and stop them being influential, to his credit he has done this well and managed to hold his own going the other way. In answer to the OP he is not the best two way player in the game, for starters there are better players who play this role in the competition who have done it for a longer period at a higher level. Lets not forget Bryce has played this role for the rounds of this season and parts of last year.

Whilst Carlton fans may shoot me down because it is a pies supporter writing this, i will say i have the total opposite opinion on your two other number one drafts picks Murphy and Kreuzer, Murphy being borderline elite already and Kreuzer will get there. Both players have that little bit of something that make them great players, i do not see this in Bryce Gibbs. I wish him all the best and will be happy to cop it if he becomes an elite player, but to me since he has come in he has been overhyped for the output he has produced and has in my opinion shown nothing to suggest he is or will become an out an out star of the game!

 

[ausbacker]

Not a chance in hell. Scotland has a better chance of accepting an English apology for tyranny inflicted than Bryce Gibbs being celebrated as a two way player let alone the best in the game.

 

[Vass]

This year is a learning year for Gibbs. I remember Thomas played as a tagger in 2009 and came out on fire in 2010. The coach it teaching Gibbs to have a better defensive game with the hope next year Gibbs will be the one tagged. Next year I reckon Gibbs will take that next step.

 

[HFF]

Outside of Heath Scotland, is only the other Carlton mid to run and work hard both ways which makes him difficult to expose as an opposition player.

However, he is not the best 2-way player in the comp.