Society/Culture Can a purely socialist society exist?

[barreness]

None of those things are 'the means of production'.

A state run fire service saves a private factory
" " health service keeps the workers functional
" " military keeps the workers safe(ish? has been used against unionised workers)

These are all factors of the means of production, in fact quite important, and when the state opts out we see corps/business impose terrible conditions on them

And liberalism (which has nothing to do with socialism) is why we have those things. Because its the duty of a Liberal State to protect its citizens from harm.

Questionable at best. In the past they have done some things to protect the working class, arguably from the ruling elites fears of socialism.

Liberal sates have also colonised/enslaved those on the imperial peripheral and seemingly had no duty for those citizens. Often under the liberal guise of "civilising" them

That's the only reason the State exists.

Lol. The state exists to propagate the wants of the ruling class.

A state is an institution that can monopolise violence in a given area, whether that be liberal, socialist, monarchist, fascist etc

 

[barreness]

Firstly, Yugoslavia is an outlier because it's been wrought with a raging ethnic conflict in the decades post perestroika. You cant ignore the fact its been tearing itself apart for most of the past 40 years.

Almost like it was a bad idea to tear apart a state with nationalism and imf loans, very liberal though

And secondly, I didnt just post economic results for Poland, I also posted them for China, Vietnam, North Korea and East Germany (which account for over 1/3 of the world's population).

I mean only one of those state is not currently socialist, and they were part of a reunification. You'll note that east Germany is now a bastion of far right(and left) voting blocks as liberalism fails

China (vs Taiwan)

Taiwan wasn't liberal

, East Germany (vs West Germany)

Yeh ok, soviets denazifided hard as aposed to the west and wanted to keep them down, cause WW and shit

and North Korea (vs South Korea)

South Korea also not liberal, unless you count massacring commies

were even starker examples because they show clear and overwhelming evidence of literally the same peoples, with the same starting position, the same culture and the same ethnicity but each going a different way - and hazard a guess which (out of the capitalist vs the communist States) fared infinitely better?

A capitalist state is better at exploiting energy and destroying the environment, congrats. They only had the world hegemon on there side too

The evidence is overwhelming.

In literally every single former Communist State, since ditching Communism and embracing the free market (and I mean in literally every single one of them) GDP has drastically increased

GDP again, almost irrelevant. What about the current socialist states? oh they've increased too. bad argument

, quality of life has drastically improved, freedoms and liberty have drastically expanded, and there is also this:

Please define these in a quantifiable way

View attachment 2154823

You had to use the 4chan meme, like I know that's where you're coming from but just look up the statistics properly and don't be an edgelord

I'm sure they'll enjoy that extra 6 years with no pension. Or maybe they have a state that has welfare and a public health system, very socialist of them

No I'm saying 'Free Market liberal capitalism would have been quicker and less genocidal'.

Free market liberal capitalism is at the heart of European colonialism and has the worst record in history for genocide(maybe the mongols, depending how you measure it)

Chinas 'Great leap forward' killed 15-40 million people in famines in the 60's.

Oh I know. It's why you'd never repeat the rural collectivisation and urban push at the same time. Mao made terrible decisions at times, he also stepped down after these massive mistakes.

there was a great famine, lower estimates from chinese scholars go at around 3 mil and up to 75 mil from dissidents. Census records were pretty sus in those days(600/700 million pop, give or take I guess lol), incentives to overstate for more rations and understate deaths etc

If you take 20mil as a middle ground then it's ~3% of the pop. The imposed Irish famine saw a death toll of ~8% of the population, from one of your favourite liberal capitalist states, don't get me started on India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_communist_regimes

Of course, after that, millions more were purged during the Cultural revolution:

Forums are modern public shaming sessions lol

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution#Death_toll

You're putting China forward as an example of 'Good Socialism'? Even leaving the above aside, China only started getting its shit together (and people's lives actually improved) when they ditched pure socialism and implemented free market reforms.

A lot of things did improve during the leap and CR, perhaps not in GDP but **** that.

Would it be better that they stayed under colonial rule? Boxer rebellion had a few 100k. Or better under the nationalist? that ran a 30 year martial law

But yes China is a somewhat good example of socialism now. Of course many mistakes, as with all countries, but they have made many GDP gains(with state capitalism and to the detriment to the environment)

You mean to say 'as soon as Russia stopped propping the economy of North Korea up, it went utterly **** up.'

A small nation excluded from global trade doesn't do well, what a surprise

Here is a map of the Korean peninsula at night:

Like blackout? whats the source? date?

One satellite photo proves that one of the most unsustainable states on earth is better because they can't see the stars

View attachment 2154841

There is no starker an image that shows the discrepancy between Communism and Capitalism that I could show you than above.

Dude source your stuff, this is meaningless. Does this reflect a one day situation? a decade long thing? Was it earth hour? was it recent?

Again, Liberal capitalism is not perfect. In that glowing wealthy bit to the South there are hundreds of thousands in abject poverty (even if millions in the middle classes are doing it well).

Exactly

Roughly 15% live under the poverty line, aka 8 million

https://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20210128000487

Almost half their old people live in poverty, a great example

I still reckon even they the impoverished of the South it better than literally everyone North of the 38th parallel (barring Kim and his cronies running the show of course).

Because you're propagandised, as we all are

Here's a vid from Australians that went there a few years back

What? Quality of life in the Capitalist nations was significantly better (for the majority). People fled Cuba to head to the USA, crossed the Berlin Wall to head West and defected from North Korea to the South for a reason (and not, generally speaking, the other way around).

How are you defining quality?

The owner class of Cuba fled, many more did in recent times because of the impoverishment from embargoes(and poor policy)

You know west Berlin was an enclave deep in the heart of the warsaw pact right? It was the very definition of 'propped up'

I mean there's been quite a few that went back and many defectors the other way(but yeh the numbers in your favour here by far). It's strange to use SK as an example here, one of the most repressive conservative states going around that's borderline one party, run by a few corps, and was a brutal dictatorship back in the day

Life in Communist States was (and is) utterly ****ed. You have zero freedoms. Shit is stagnant. The State controll every aspect of your life.

Great, now we have corporations that do, more sparkel than the kings I guess

Everyone is poor (but at least they're equally poor).

That's legit how people judge their position. A more equal society, no matter how poor, has better social cohesion

Well.. everyone is poor except the Communist party hierarchy that run the show of course. They have billions. Gold plated Lamborghinis and harems of women.

Great, it's better that the dickheads that run my liberal capitalist society(and a few youtube stars) get to have gold plated lambo's

And those people exist at the top in every single communist shithole. country

Yep

Just like us Liberals warned you would happen.

What's the line about the soviets?

Everything they said about communism was a lie, everything they said about capitalism was the truth

I'm a community legal sector lawyer. I help people in not for profits.

Solid

And no, Law doesnt serve itself. Punters get into trouble with the law (or wish to avoid trouble with the law) so they come to us for advice and assistance.

If you want to describe that as 'Byzantine' be my guest.

I still would, but fair enough