Society/Culture Can we please stop equating the risk posed by left wing extremists with that of right wing extremists?

[Malifice]

Lets be clear here. I denounce extremism and terrorism in all its forms. Islamic, ethno-nationalist, left wing and right wing. You name it.

But I am getting sick to death of the usual crew trying to play down the threat posed by right wing extremism. We've seen recent examples of far right wing extremism time and time again in Christchurch, Norway, Calgary, Oklahoma, Charleston, El Paso, Poway etc etc. Right wing extremists and neo-fascists, radicalised online (via social media sites like 8kun, 4chan, Stormfront, and increasingly twitter, Facebook and Youtube).

Mosques, Churches, Synagogues, Government buildings and employees and other sites targeted by radicalised right wingers. Mass shootings. Bombings. Car attacks. All the hallmarks of Islamic terrorism, replete with internet radicalisation of disenfranchised angry young men (and it's always men) convinced of some sort of 'clash of the cultures' and the need to kill civilians, women and kids 'for a greater good'.

And the problem of radicalised RWNJ's is growing at a rapid rate.

In Australia, Right wing extremism accounts for 40 percent of ASIO's counterterrorism efforts:

ASIO deputy director-general Heather Cook said up to 40 per cent of the agency's counterterrorism efforts are now focussed on thwarting violent plots by right-wing groups or individuals.

Ms Cook has also revealed that ASIO is concerned that right-wing extremists are now using the same strategies as Islamic extremists to bolster their ranks.

"I think not dissimilar to the way ISIL [Islamic State] used its propaganda and its ability to manipulate social media to recruit the young and the vulnerable — I think we are seeing a similar phenomenon being used by some in that extreme right-wing milieu to good effect," she said.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-22/right-wing-extremists-asio-islamic-state-tactics/12690002

In the USA, far right wing terrorism accounts for the majority of all terrorist incidents since 1994, committing 2/3 of all plots and attacks in 2019, and over 90 percent to May 2020:

Far-right terrorism has significantly outpaced terrorism from other types of perpetrators, including from far-left networks and individuals inspired by the Islamic State and al-Qaeda. Right-wing attacks and plots account for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994, and the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown significantly during the past six years. Right-wing extremists perpetrated two thirds of the attacks and plots in the United States in 2019 and over 90 percent between January 1 and May 8, 2020.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states

And the irony of the above, is you always see the usual flood of right wingers storming in to defend the above, or downplay it. The very same people that were prepared to denounce all Muslims on account of Islamic terrorism, and called for draconian laws and banning of radicalised Islamic extremists and preachers, are now pushing for the Lauren Southerns and similar far right wing agitators of the world and their 'freedom' to spruike their shit, and radicalise even more people.

Even worse, they try and label loosely aligned anti-fascist groups as 'terrorists' and draw this false equivalency between them and the radicalised neo-fascist mass murderers from the Right or from the Islamic extremist variety (none of whom I'll name here, may they all rot in Hell).

It's about time that false equivalence was called out for what it is. A deflection and a denial by right wingers and neo-fascists about the evils of the very far right wing ideologies they hold so dear.

Instead of downplaying and deflecting, the real question is: What can be done about the surge in neo-fascist and far right wing terrorism?

 

[JCHolmes]

Cool story, but you missed one key fact, right wingers ARE terrorists bro.

 

[Malifice]

Can we please stop equating the risk posed by left wing extremists and right wing extremists with that of Islamist extremists?

Right on cue, a right winger comes in to deflect.

Are you aware that Islamic extremism is itself a form of Right wing extremism? Both types of extremists seek to use violence to impose (or maintain) a hierarchical, patriarchal, reactionary, traditional and conservative social and political system. Both types of extremists are increasingly radicalised online.

Ironically, both also hate the Jews. Because that train is never late.

The fact is that right wing extremism is the largest domestic terror threat in the USA at present, and currently accounts for 40 percent (and rising) of the domestic terror threat here in Australia as well.

Whine about anti-fascists all you like, but trying to equate left wing extremism with right wing extremism is deflection in the extreme.

 

[EDFL follower]

Right on cue, a right winger comes in to deflect.

Are you aware that Islamic extremism is itself a form of Right wing extremism? Both types of extremists seek to use violence to impose (or maintain) a hierarchical, patriarchal, reactionary, traditional and conservative social and political system. Both types of extremists are increasingly radicalised online.

Ironically, both also hate the Jews. Because that train is never late.

The fact is that right wing extremism is the largest domestic terror threat in the USA at present, and currently accounts for 40 percent (and rising) of the domestic terror threat here in Australia as well.

Whine about anti-fascists all you like, but trying to equate left wing extremism with right wing extremism is deflection in the extreme.

How many seppos have those peaceful BLM rioter killed so far?

 

[Malifice]

So the right wing extremists are a problem because they are targeting right wing extremists?

They're not. They're targeting women and kids praying in synagogues, churches, mosques, kids on Islands in Norway, peaceful protesters and government employees.

While Sunni Islamist extremism is the primary terrorist threat facing Australia

More deflection and Nazi cheer-leeding.

I denounced Salafi Islamic extremism in my opening line of the OP, and concede it's a massive threat that has only been overtaken as the number 1 threat in the USA recently by your lot.

How about you do the same for Right wing extremism?

Specifically, I challenge to you to denounce right wing extremism, and the fascist political ideology behind it, instead of being an apologist for it, or trying to draw some kind of false equivalence to right wing and left wing extremism.

Can you do that?

 

[Malifice]

How many seppos have those peaceful BLM rioter killed so far?

Im not sure why (or how) you equate any violence in the USA to 'BLM'.

Has it ever occurred to you that much of the violence is simple rioters and looters taking advantage of the protests, and not 'BLM'?

 

[ExcitementMachine]

The discussion in itself is more nuanced and key points go over the head of the OP. OP is dishonest and; like a lot of the RWNJ's on this board after a terrorist attack, after the one major terror attack committed by a RWNJ Brenton Tarrant - this person was like a pig in shit to the Christchurch thread.

There's no legitimate grievance - to choose to gun down people in a mosque - or - strap a bomb to oneself and blow up the Young and Jacksons. The nuance is there are reasons of which I tried my darndest explaining to this guy and they aren't just black or white. And yes, it's not nice but, the OP is part of the problem - as long as he blindly supports ANTIFA and absolutely while he revels in the actual statistic - true or false - for his dialogue in this thread.

The extreme's of both the left and right are as bad as each other and poor fuel on the fire. Malifice is part of the problem.

 

[Taylor]

We don't want either right wing or left wing extremist groups having any power politically.

When the right wing get in they start causing millions of deaths in other countries, when the left wing get in they kill a hundred million of their own people enacting their social policy.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Right-wing extremists using Islamic State tactics to recruit, ASIO warns, amid spike in surveillanc

Australia's domestic spy agency has revealed a dramatic rise in the number of violent right-wing extremists under surveillance, while warning some groups are now employing Islamic State-style radicalisation tactics.

ASIO deputy director-general Heather Cook said up to 40 per cent of the agency's counterterrorism efforts are now focussed on thwarting violent plots by right-wing groups or individuals.

Right-wing extremists using Islamic State tactics to recruit, ASIO warns

Australia's domestic spy agency reveals a dramatic rise in the number of violent right-wing extremists under surveillance, while warning some groups are now employing Islamic State-style radicalisation tactics.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Number37]

The discussion in itself is more nuanced and key points go over the head of the OP. OP is dishonest and; like a lot of the RWNJ's on this board after a terrorist attack, after the one major terror attack committed by a RWNJ Brenton Tarrant - this person was like a pig in sh*t to the Christchurch thread.

There's no legitimate grievance - to choose to gun down people in a mosque - or - strap a bomb to oneself and blow up the Young and Jacksons. The nuance is there are reasons of which I tried my darndest explaining to this guy and they aren't just black or white. And yes, it's not nice but, the OP is part of the problem - as long as he blindly supports ANTIFA and absolutely while he revels in the actual statistic - true or false - for his dialogue in this thread.

The extreme's of both the left and right are as bad as each other and poor fuel on the fire. Malifice is part of the problem.

It may be more nuanced but when has terrorism ever been discussed with nuance?
NEVER!

Whilst it is possible to draw distinctions between the motives of individual terrorists, tying those individual motives to a broader ideology isn't automatically a bad thing.
If you murder one person you're a murderer, if you murder 10 people you're a serial killer. We don't say that a person who has murdered 10 people isn't a serial killer just because the motives behind each murder were not identical. Serial killer being the broader ideology.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

It may be more nuanced but when has terrorism ever been discussed with nuance?
NEVER!

Whilst it is possible to draw distinctions between the motives of individual terrorists, tying those individual motives to a broader ideology isn't automatically a bad thing.
If you murder one person you're a murderer, if you murder 10 people you're a serial killer. We don't say that a person who has murdered 10 people isn't a serial killer just because the motives behind each murder were not identical. Serial killer being the broader ideology.

There's no legitimate grievance - for mass murder - OP believes there is and some sort of hierarchy in regards to grievances in association with terrorism.

There are many reasons - the politics of Scott Morrison's targeting of islamaphobic votes maybe more or less culpable then the brand of politics espoused by groups such as ANTIFA and sentiments from College campuses for the rise of Right Wing extremism.

That ladder might be confronting to people like Malifice but if he's passionate about confronting this problem - and it's something to be ashamed of - he has to look into a mirror at his own behavouir.

As it is, it's ****ed up to try and understand the Muslim psychopath - yet, when to right wing extremism - which is abhorent - to not make any efforts to understand the underlying reasons how it got this bad.

 

[Number37]

There's no legitimate grievance - for mass murder - OP believes there is and some sort of hierarchy in regards to grievances in association with terrorism.

Until the mid 90's-ish we were a strong supporter of the Taliban, so was the USA & UK & France and all the partners in the "coalition of the willing".
We had no issue with the legitimacy of their grievance with the Soviets.

For exactly the same grievance we became their enemy.
So, it's not a question of legitimacy.

Unfortunately, we don't get to decide what other people think is legitimate. It doesn't work that way.

Part of the solution to the mass murder problem is that we have to accept that grievances are legitimate so that we can encourage those that believe they have a legitimate grievance that mass murder isn't the solution.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

Until the mid 90's-ish we were a strong supporter of the Taliban, so was the USA & UK & France and all the partners in the "coalition of the willing".
We had no issue with the legitimacy of their grievance with the Soviets.

For exactly the same grievance we became their enemy.
So, it's not a question of legitimacy.

Unfortunately, we don't get to decide what other people think is legitimate. It doesn't work that way.

Part of the solution to the mass murder problem is that we have to accept that grievances are legitimate so that we can encourage those that believe they have a legitimate grievance that mass murder isn't the solution.

I was just a kid in the nineties it had nothing to do with me.
Most terrorist attacks - or a good percentage here in Aus - are second generation migrants - almost always has next to nothing to do with what happened in Afghanistan.

People have a legitimate grievance with say, The Greens party - who - are savage on Right Wing terrorism - but to reference SHY - offer thoughts and prayers when it comes to Islamic terrorism. And that's just at the surface. This sort of politics is very influential in society today - cancel culture is real.

It would be racist to think that you talk for white people, because your white. You have many things you identify with - and your left leaning identity is of far greater significance to you then your whiteness. And we don't get to decide what is a legitimate grievance. There's no legitimacy to mass murder. Yes grievances are legitimate - and with the rise of Right Wing extremism - the far left, cancel culture are absolutely part of the problem.

ANTIFA are failures and absolutely so are the social scientists who espouse the cancel culture rhetoric. The OP is absolutely a failure. He should be more ashamed then most given his long time investment into the 'problem'.

 

[Malifice]

the OP is part of the problem - as long as he blindly supports ANTIFA

I blindly support who now?

Proof? Im not an anarchist nor a communist. I dont support fascism either for that matter.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

I blindly support who now?

Proof? Im not an anarchist nor a communist. I dont support fascism either for that matter.

You support ANTIFA"S cause. That doesn't make you a communist.

 

[Number37]

I was just a kid in the nineties it had nothing to do with me.
Most terrorist attacks - or a good percentage here in Aus - are second generation migrants - almost always has next to nothing to do with what happened in Afghanistan.

People have a legitimate grievance with say, The Greens party - who - are savage on Right Wing terrorism - but to reference SHY - offer thoughts and prayers when it comes to Islamic terrorism. And that's just at the surface. This sort of politics is very influential in society today - cancel culture is real.

It would be racist to think that you talk for white people, because your white. You have many things you identify with - and your left leaning identity is of far greater significance to you then your whiteness. And we don't get to decide what is a legitimate grievance. There's no legitimacy to mass murder. Yes grievances are legitimate - and with the rise of Right Wing extremism - the far left, cancel culture are absolutely part of the problem.

ANTIFA are failures and absolutely so are the social scientists who espouse the cancel culture rhetoric. The OP is absolutely a failure. He should be more ashamed then most given his long time investment into the 'problem'.

That's a very long winded of saying you hate SHY and Antifa and that you have a bee in your bonnet about Malifice.

Which doesn't address the subject of the discussion.

 

[Taylor]

I'm not sure you can affect rapid social change without acts that would be considered terrorism or fascism.

Thankfully we live in a democracy that for the most part doesn't bend to the will of the loudest voices.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

That's a very long winded of saying you hate SHY and Antifa and that you have a bee in your bonnet about Malifice.

Which doesn't address the subject of the discussion.

Nope, don't hate SHY - find her more appealing and agree with a lot of what she has to say more so than conservatives. Try addressing my post - I know it's confronting as to what you identify with - your values - even your online identity.

 

[Malifice]

There's no legitimate grievance - for mass murder.

Mass murder is never justified, and I have never once said it was. I've said that extremism doesnt exist in a vaccuum and that terrorists have grievances (usually expressed in a manifesto or similar) against another group.

So you dont think the IRA had any actual grievances? Tell me what their grievances were please. Why were they attacking the English?

How about Al-Queda? Tell me what their grievances were. Why did they target the USA?

Now try doing the same with Far Right wing terrorists. Tell me what their grievances are? 'Cultural Marxism'? 'The Left'? Explain to me the evils of socially progressive politics please.

 

[Malifice]

You support ANTIFA"S cause.

No, I repudiate violence in any form other than in legitimate self defence, or the defence of others. I support their cause in that their cause is to oppose fascism.

But if that makes me an 'ANTIFA supporter' then it also makes the Allies in WW2 ANTIFA supporters. It makes those that opposed Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy or the White Rose movement in Nazi Germany 'ANTIFA supporters'.

 

[Number37]

Nope, don't hate SHY - find her more appealing and agree with a lot of what she has to say more so than conservatives. Try addressing my post - I know it's confronting as to what you identify with - your values - even your online identity.

Again, incoherent rambling.

What is confronting to identify with?

 

[Taylor]

Explain to me the evils of socially progressive politics please

Those would include but not limited to:
Growing dependence of the population on government handouts, further pushing the agency of the individual into the service of the state - making people vote to continue their cycle that has so far shown to not work but they are dependent so they must continue.
The erosion of the family unit resulting in single parent households with worse outcomes for children and the continuation of that cycle of poverty, crime and disadvantage.
The erosion of gender roles which are now starting to hit home as young women who put their career first are finding out the cost might well have been their chance at a family - but this is anecdotal. Men are finding themselves in a limbo of value, killing themselves more and more and latching onto people like Peterson who simply reinforced that their role in society as men is to be men.
The erosion of the liberty and freedom of law abiding citizens with restrictions on language or the possession of tools.
I don't consider rampant drug use a progressive caused issue, people should be free to do what they want with their body.
...but that doesn't include the sexualisation of children which is happening.

I'm all for people being free to to what they want but there have been some big lies spread by the progressives that the bill is coming for. Such as, "women can have everything" and "men and women are the same".

The more recent drive to push people back from their value as an individual into their value being based on the group they come from is another evil presenting itself.

Thankfully we have neither a conservative or progressive dominance over society.

 

[ExcitementMachine]

Mass murder is never justified, and I have never once said it was. I've said that extremism doesnt exist in a vaccuum and that terrorists have grievances (usually expressed in a manifesto or similar) against another group.

So you dont think the IRA had any actual grievances? Tell me what their grievances were please. Why were they attacking the English?

How about Al-Queda? Tell me what their grievances were. Why did they target the USA?

Now try doing the same with Far Right wing terrorists. Tell me what their grievances are? 'Cultural Marxism'? 'The Left'? Explain to me the evils of socially progressive politics please.

Firstly - the IRA and their grievance of the past is a false equivalency to that of Al Queda. Try Palestine and apartheid South Africa.
Secondly - Islamic terrorism in Australia - and it's supporters has more in common in it's development to right wing extremism than any 'legitimate grievance with what has happened in the Middle East in the past 60-70 years. Majority of the subscribers are second generation migrants.

Progressive politics isn't evil in itself - however when it's taken to an extreme (where it's not even progressive) as to become a brand of politics then it's problematic in creating the problem that is growing today.

 

[Taylor]

Majority of the subscribers are second generation migrants.

I wonder how much of the identity politics of late has contributed to this. Teenagers spend most of their day desperately trying to cling onto what they determine to be their social group and identity - leaning heavily into their ancestry because for the most part they haven't developed a strong character of their own yet. Becoming a caricature of culture to conform with the rest of their group in lieu of personal growth but ostracisation.

Now it's enough to be a "person of [x] decent". That will bring with it ingrained dogma, taking on the greivences of those they've never met in some patriotic like duty for "their" kind.

We could really do with less grouping by sexuality, gender, race - all the things you can't control, and focus more on character, values, spirit - the things you can.

But then if you do focus on the things you can't control and life doesn't work out for you, it's not your fault. Much easier message to sell.

 

[Malifice]

While I could critique every single thing you said above, this stuck out to me:

The erosion of the liberty and freedom of law abiding citizens with restrictions on language or the possession of tools.

You mean to say 'prohibitions on hate speech and restricting access to assault weapons'.

Which in the context of the OP regarding the rise of fascist white nationalist mass shooters, maybe you can see why this is a good idea.

Thankfully we have neither a conservative or progressive dominance over society.

Boris Johnson, Donald Trump and Scott Morrison might have something to say about that.