Expansion Can't all the codes just get along??

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The phoney battle of the codes

Australia’s bid to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup will be an unprecedented test case for the undeclared, so called ‘war of the codes’ in this country.



For the first time in the history of football’s long struggle to gain a foothold as a relevant sport in Australian society, football actually needs the help and co-operation of its so-called rival codes to take a giant step forward.

The country’s two most powerful winter sports competitions, the AFL and the NRL would either have to interrupt their campaigns for perhaps two months in mid-season or undergo massive dislocation by losing their biggest and most popular venues.

The World Cup finals will run from the second week in June to the second week in July. Add another two weeks at either end for venue preparation, reparation, various contingencies and the like and the venues are likely to be required for the FIFA event for eight weeks.

With venues like the MCG, Telstra Dome, ANZ Stadium, the SFS and Suncorp Stadium poised as World Cup stadia, the AFL and NRL competitions will either have to go into a two-month mid-season sabbatical or transfer their games to more modest, suburban grounds.

The former is more likely than the latter, but in either case the World Cup organising hosts, the FFA, will rely on the generous co-operation of two large, powerful but increasingly insecure sports living in fear of football’s rampaging progress.

Given the might of the World Cup’s appeal in Australia, as shown by the way the country was galvanised by the 2006 event, and what a home-hosted World Cup would do to advance the esteem of football, such co-operation from the two giants, to give football a leg up, is just about unthinkable.

But should it be? Do Aussie rules and rugby league have so much to fear from football that they should go so devilishly against the national interest and refuse co-operation?

In my view, no.

The war between football and the other ‘codes’ has always been a phoney one and remains that more than ever today.

Football presents no threat to AFL and the NRL and never has, at least not to their traditional popularity and place. There’s no better evidence for this than what has gone on in the past three years.


In that period the A-League’s attendances have grown at a healthy pace. But ironically so have the crowds of AFL and the NRL. Similar can be said of television audiences. In other words football, for all its growth in appeal, is not eating into the markets of Aussie rules and rugby league.


As Frank Lowy, football’s chief, told SBS recently: “We don’t want to threaten anybody. We just want to be successful in our own right.”

Which is perfectly possible if it is conceded that there need not be a turf war. There is enough turf for everybody, even in a country with 21 million people.

The most likely quarter from which a stumbling block will be put before the World Cup bid is the AFL. This is the body which, according to folklore, had its hierarchy opening bottles of champagne every time soccer, in the bad old soccer days, shot itself in the foot. They, at AFL headquarters, apparently still tremble in fear of football’s potential and what its global might do to their sport.

The right advice to them is that they should relax and get a life.

There is no evidence that football is a threat to Aussie rules or is ever likely to be, especially as a deep-rooted institution in its traditional regions. ‘Australian football’, and the obsession it enjoys in Melbourne and across the south of the continent, is just about unshakeable and one doubts if anything will ever change it.

Where the AFL feels more realistically threatened is in its ambition to expand and go beyond its traditional realm. In this it has some time ago declared war not just on football but also on rugby league.

It desperately wants to nationalise its game and lift it to the status of being Australia’s one true national sport, spending massive volumes of money on junior recruitment and expanding its league.

In this it will fail.

For one, rugby league will present insurmountable resistance, so deeply entrenched that sport is in the sporting traditions of the eastern states. I mean, imagine a fixture like rugby league’s State of Origin dying in Sydney or Brisbane, wimply acquiescing to the superior appeal of Aussie rules games between, say, Collingwood and the Swans.

But the major road block will come from football. The game’s global appeal, in a globalised world, is so broad and powerful, no amount of money the AFL derives from television rights will be enough to persuade the grassroots millions to defy its conquering magnetism.

The wisest thing for the AFL to do, and the NRL with it, is to collaborate, stand aside, protect what it has, and support Australia’s World Cup bid in the broad national interest.

But saying that is easy. Convincing the AFL and NRL of it will be the hard part.

------------------

Les Murray speaks the truth.

Soccer is no threat to Aussie Rules.

There is enough turf for everyone. No need to fight each other for it :thumbsu:
 
The phoney battle of the codes

Australia’s bid to host the 2018 FIFA World Cup will be an unprecedented test case for the undeclared, so called ‘war of the codes’ in this country.



For the first time in the history of football’s long struggle to gain a foothold as a relevant sport in Australian society, football actually needs the help and co-operation of its so-called rival codes to take a giant step forward.

The country’s two most powerful winter sports competitions, the AFL and the NRL would either have to interrupt their campaigns for perhaps two months in mid-season or undergo massive dislocation by losing their biggest and most popular venues.

The World Cup finals will run from the second week in June to the second week in July. Add another two weeks at either end for venue preparation, reparation, various contingencies and the like and the venues are likely to be required for the FIFA event for eight weeks.

With venues like the MCG, Telstra Dome, ANZ Stadium, the SFS and Suncorp Stadium poised as World Cup stadia, the AFL and NRL competitions will either have to go into a two-month mid-season sabbatical or transfer their games to more modest, suburban grounds.

The former is more likely than the latter, but in either case the World Cup organising hosts, the FFA, will rely on the generous co-operation of two large, powerful but increasingly insecure sports living in fear of football’s rampaging progress.

Given the might of the World Cup’s appeal in Australia, as shown by the way the country was galvanised by the 2006 event, and what a home-hosted World Cup would do to advance the esteem of football, such co-operation from the two giants, to give football a leg up, is just about unthinkable.

But should it be? Do Aussie rules and rugby league have so much to fear from football that they should go so devilishly against the national interest and refuse co-operation?

In my view, no.

The war between football and the other ‘codes’ has always been a phoney one and remains that more than ever today.

Football presents no threat to AFL and the NRL and never has, at least not to their traditional popularity and place. There’s no better evidence for this than what has gone on in the past three years.


In that period the A-League’s attendances have grown at a healthy pace. But ironically so have the crowds of AFL and the NRL. Similar can be said of television audiences. In other words football, for all its growth in appeal, is not eating into the markets of Aussie rules and rugby league.


As Frank Lowy, football’s chief, told SBS recently: “We don’t want to threaten anybody. We just want to be successful in our own right.”

Which is perfectly possible if it is conceded that there need not be a turf war. There is enough turf for everybody, even in a country with 21 million people.

The most likely quarter from which a stumbling block will be put before the World Cup bid is the AFL. This is the body which, according to folklore, had its hierarchy opening bottles of champagne every time soccer, in the bad old soccer days, shot itself in the foot. They, at AFL headquarters, apparently still tremble in fear of football’s potential and what its global might do to their sport.

The right advice to them is that they should relax and get a life.

There is no evidence that football is a threat to Aussie rules or is ever likely to be, especially as a deep-rooted institution in its traditional regions. ‘Australian football’, and the obsession it enjoys in Melbourne and across the south of the continent, is just about unshakeable and one doubts if anything will ever change it.

Where the AFL feels more realistically threatened is in its ambition to expand and go beyond its traditional realm. In this it has some time ago declared war not just on football but also on rugby league.

It desperately wants to nationalise its game and lift it to the status of being Australia’s one true national sport, spending massive volumes of money on junior recruitment and expanding its league.

In this it will fail.

For one, rugby league will present insurmountable resistance, so deeply entrenched that sport is in the sporting traditions of the eastern states. I mean, imagine a fixture like rugby league’s State of Origin dying in Sydney or Brisbane, wimply acquiescing to the superior appeal of Aussie rules games between, say, Collingwood and the Swans.

But the major road block will come from football. The game’s global appeal, in a globalised world, is so broad and powerful, no amount of money the AFL derives from television rights will be enough to persuade the grassroots millions to defy its conquering magnetism.

The wisest thing for the AFL to do, and the NRL with it, is to collaborate, stand aside, protect what it has, and support Australia’s World Cup bid in the broad national interest.

But saying that is easy. Convincing the AFL and NRL of it will be the hard part.

------------------

Les Murray speaks the truth.

Soccer is no threat to Aussie Rules.

There is enough turf for everyone. No need to fight each other for it :thumbsu:

The number of times he contradicts himself in that article is amazing!

So Australian Football has no chance of being a national game - becaue of rugby league, but Soccer does? Because of its conquering magnetism?

Scuse moi?

What is it conquering then? If not other football codes? Isn't that exactly the point?

Much as the World Cup would be a great festival, and everyone - and I do mean everyone - would have a great time partying up and enjoying the carnival atmosphere - longer term, what is a possible consequence?

It just increases the likelihood that we could turn into just another homogenised global outpost, sending our best athletes across the seas to compete in foreign lands.

What do we have left? The dregs? And what about our unique sporting creations?

Shouldn't they be supported above all else? As part of being a country called Australia?

Spoken like a true Hungarian, still bitter about 1954.
 
Soccer is a sport that is almost to simple for Australians. Like the yanks and their obsession with Statistics in sport we too can relate with the Statistics in our sports.

Just going to AFL games and hearing the crowd boo when a player kicks backwards and the frustration that boils over, I just can't see the same people watching 90 minutes of soccer where players pass backwards all the time, even all the way back to their goal keeper!
 

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The phoney battle of the codes



Les Murray speaks the truth.

Soccer is no threat to Aussie Rules.

There is enough turf for everyone. No need to fight each other for it :thumbsu:

This whole "let's all be friends" is annoying. It is so dishonest. Every code is fighting tooth and nail to be number one, as they should be doing. Their job is to make their respective codes number one. Even if another code is relatively insignificant, a yappy dog can scare away big game. In more specific terms, if soccer keeps making boasts about becoming number one, it could attract some sponsors that might have otherwise gone to the AFL.

I like the honesty that is coming out of rugby league. They aren't getting into all this bullshite" lets be friends". (I like that about league. Very honest.) Here are a few quotes from Gallop http://www.realfooty.com.au/news/ne...1204226995213.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

"There are many spoils. The most prized are watchers and viewers, the hearts and minds. "There’s no doubt we’re in competition," Gallop said. "I’ve always liked that John Paul Getty saying that there’s only three secrets to success: ‘Get up early, work hard and find oil.’ Oil for us is seven-year-old kids getting involved in our game and hopefully making a lifelong connection....Gallop is less ecumenical. "We expect these days a lot of people are going to sample all the codes," he said. "But the people we love are the people who don't go to anything else but rugby league, become season ticket-holders, talk about it over the water cooler every day and come up to you in the summer and say, 'Can't wait for the footy to start'." Those people, said Gallop, were also the likeliest to be volunteers in junior clubs, and so the code's truest apostles.
 
The recently-scrapped rotation policy was in place during the 2014 bidding process, meaning only South American countries were eligible to apply. Columbia also expressed interest, but was discouraged late in the piece by the South American confederation. Out of the rest of the continent, probably only Argentina possesses the necessary resources to host an event as big as what the World Cup is nowadays.

What resources would you need to host a wold cup? It seems all you need is a willingness to spend $100 million on bid/bribe and then $2 billion on building stadiums. If there is $27 billion profit to be made, surely it would take more that some "discouragement" from a confederation.
 
Although the salary cap is good for the NRL and AFL, I actually think soccer would be better off without it. It would allow Sydney and Melbourne to dominate every year, and perhaps have some of this markee players. Soccer especially seems to need them. Also, a lot of soccer fans around the world from loser teams don't actually care that much about winning. For them, holding a glamour team to a draw is very satisfying for them. Also, its possible in soccer because ability is not always reflected on the scoreboard. All they really need is hope that they can win, and in soccer that hope is always there.

That said, a big part of soccer's strategy in Australia seems to be to undermine rugby league in regional areas, so it probably does need this salary cap to achieve that objective.

Really struggling now.
 
Like the A-leaue.

In season 1 a certain number of people attended the A League
In season 2 a larger number of people attended the A League.
This year an even larger number of people attended the A League.

As the third number is bigger than the second number which was bigger than the first number we can conclude that growth has occurred.
 
I think what some of what Les Murray says is true. The popularity of the A-League has increased but not at the expense of the AFL in Melbourne (which has had a bumper year last season I think)

Why? Because a substantial number of people who attend A-League also attend AFL. So the A-League is an additional sporting experience, rather than swapping one for the other. That is one of the main reasons why the A-League is played in summer.

And as I said before while many people like me follow both codes, there is competition for sposorship money, young talent etc. So I also agree somewhat with ghengiskhan that codes cannot really 'be friends'.

They are competing for markets, like any business in a capitalist system would do.
 
What resources would you need to host a wold cup? It seems all you need is a willingness to spend $100 million on bid/bribe and then $2 billion on building stadiums. If there is $27 billion profit to be made, surely it would take more that some "discouragement" from a confederation.

$2 billion (a fairly arbitrary figure, methinks, but I'll work with it) isn't all that easy to come by for the economic basket case that it is the bulk of South America.

Brazil will have more than its share of organisational headaches between now and 2014, and unlike the rest of the continent it has a 180 million population to call upon to support the event once it actually starts. How many will be able to afford tickets is a different matter.
 
$2 billion (a fairly arbitrary figure, methinks, but I'll work with it) isn't all that easy to come by for the economic basket case that it is the bulk of South America.

Brazil will have more than its share of organisational headaches between now and 2014, and unlike the rest of the continent it has a 180 million population to call upon to support the event once it actually starts. How many will be able to afford tickets is a different matter.

I don't know how much it costs. I know South Africa, another third world country, is spending about a billion on new stadiums.

Whether they are basket cases or not, if there is $27 billion profit to be made, then the government could take out loans up to $27 billion or so and still come out ok. Of course, that is presuming that this $27 billion they are referring to originates from foreign countries, and represents money flowing into the country. If you need to rely upon the local population to attend all the games, and pay for everything, then maybe the country isn't making anything at all. Overall, the country may actually be paying to host the cup and suffer a net loss as a result of it.

I don't know where this figure came from. I just know that if a country was $27 billion better off from hosting a world cup, then all the countries in South America would have fought a little harder to get that.
 
In season 1 a certain number of people attended the A League
In season 2 a larger number of people attended the A League.
This year an even larger number of people attended the A League.

As the third number is bigger than the second number which was bigger than the first number we can conclude that growth has occurred.

The growth isn't huge. Of course it would go up for the first few years but when all the hype wears off in a few years crowds will dip beleive me.

A-league preliminary had 16,000 buddy. Or did you watch that amazing A-league Grand final the other weak? Now that was exciting stuff. With it's 120,000 veiwers nation wide would have been captivated.

This short term success was expected. It's the long term that matters.
 

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The growth isn't huge. Of course it would go up for the first few years but when all the hype wears off in a few years crowds will dip beleive me.

A-league preliminary had 16,000 buddy. Or did you watch that amazing A-league Grand final the other weak? Now that was exciting stuff. With it's 120,000 veiwers nation wide would have been captivated.

This short term success was expected. It's the long term that matters.

Agreed. In sport, there are fashions just as there are in other areas of life. For example, in the mid-90s, more about half a million people went to baseball games in the Australian baseball league. This is probably about ten times as many people who went to state cricket games. I remember baseball was even on TV. Likewsie, i even remember the northern spirit soccer team averaging crowds around 15,000 at nth Sydney oval.
 
I think what some of what Les Murray says is true. The popularity of the A-League has increased but not at the expense of the AFL in Melbourne (which has had a bumper year last season I think)

Why? Because a substantial number of people who attend A-League also attend AFL. So the A-League is an additional sporting experience, rather than swapping one for the other. That is one of the main reasons why the A-League is played in summer.

And as I said before while many people like me follow both codes, there is competition for sposorship money, young talent etc. So I also agree somewhat with ghengiskhan that codes cannot really 'be friends'.

They are competing for markets, like any business in a capitalist system would do.


I bet the management of Coca Cola and Pepsi all sit around and work out how they can be nice to each other and share the market = bollocks!
Business is business and the winner takes all and lets stop all this bullshit about being "nice' to each other.

A sport can easily die just look at aussie basketball a "final" in Sydney got just 3000 last night and it was only a few years back when the stadiums were full and basketball was going to be the next big thing.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom or survival.

Th Aleague doesnt effect the AFL atm because its not played at the same time and is not on FTA TV!
 
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I bet the management of Coca Cola and Pepsi all sit around and work out how they can be nice to each other and share the market = bollocks!
Business is business and the winner takes all and lets stop all this bullshit about being "nice' to each other.

A sport can easily die just look at aussie basketball a "final" in Sydney got just 3000 last night and it was only a few years back when the stadiums were full and basketball was going to be the next big thing.
Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom or survival.

Th Aleague doesnt effect the AFL atm because its not played at the same time and is not on FTA TV!

Everyone in Western Sydney gets to support this team because they have never seen the game, once the AFL put a team in there, they'll all get to see Afl for the first time and go out and buy a TV.

The Western suburbs are as poor as you guys think, once they see AFL, the territory is theres!
 
The growth isn't huge. Of course it would go up for the first few years but when all the hype wears off in a few years crowds will dip beleive me.

A-league preliminary had 16,000 buddy. Or did you watch that amazing A-league Grand final the other weak? Now that was exciting stuff. With it's 120,000 veiwers nation wide would have been captivated.

This short term success was expected. It's the long term that matters.

You seem to continually have a problem understanding and appreciating that soccer is more than just the 'A-league', and its growing in ways that the AFL can't compete. There are 30% higher crowds for just the A-league, and even if they fell, you need to get it into your head this:
  1. A national youth league starting next year (AFL doesn't have this)
  2. A national womens league next year (AFL does not have this)
  3. Asian Champions League higher money (AFL doesn't have this)
  4. Ongoing world cup qualifiers here and overseas (AFL doesn't have this)
  5. Two new teams in 2009 on Gold Coast and possibly Townsville (AFL Doesn'ty have this)
  6. A-league teams in regional parts of Aust, including Gosford, NewCastle, Gold Coast, Townsville, possibly Wooloongong in 2009. (AFL has NO regional presence other than Geelong)
  7. INCREASING participation rates at junior level (higher than AFL for both boys and girls)
  8. Potential Asian TV rights on ASIA Star in next 2 years (AFL has no hope of this - Nobody in Asia cares about AFL)
See my point. AFL has nothing on Soccer, even if your repetitive doom predictions come true about A-league. You need to keep hoping and praying that all these other aspects of soccer fail.

You seem to hope for failure. Good on you.
 
Everyone in Western Sydney gets to support this team because they have never seen the game, once the AFL put a team in there, they'll all get to see Afl for the first time and go out and buy a TV.

The Western suburbs are as poor as you guys think, once they see AFL, the territory is theres!

Thank God for that!

You had me worried there for a minute.. ;)
 
You seem to continually have a problem understanding and appreciating that soccer is more than just the 'A-league', and its growing in ways that the AFL can't compete. There are 30% higher crowds for just the A-league, and even if they fell, you need to get it into your head this:
  1. A national youth league starting next year (AFL doesn't have this)
  2. A national womens league next year (AFL does not have this)
  3. Asian Champions League higher money (AFL doesn't have this)
  4. Ongoing world cup qualifiers here and overseas (AFL doesn't have this)
  5. Two new teams in 2009 on Gold Coast and possibly Townsville (AFL Doesn'ty have this)
  6. A-league teams in regional parts of Aust, including Gosford, NewCastle, Gold Coast, Townsville, possibly Wooloongong in 2009. (AFL has NO regional presence other than Geelong)
  7. INCREASING participation rates at junior level (higher than AFL for both boys and girls)
  8. Potential Asian TV rights on ASIA Star in next 2 years (AFL has no hope of this - Nobody in Asia cares about AFL)
See my point. AFL has nothing on Soccer, even if your repetitive doom predictions come true about A-league. You need to keep hoping and praying that all these other aspects of soccer fail.

You seem to hope for failure. Good on you.

Vinnie, Vinnie , Vinnie, Did you ever play for Carlton? It's disappointing to read your comments, they are neither factual or honest. I like everyone here loves a good arguement; 1908 for instance, even thou I am not keen on RL I like his sense of history. You on the other hand sir, are a horses arse, and I could easily knock down your hyperbole, but why should I? Your sport of soccor will do it for me. Are you sure you didn't play for the Blues?
 
From today's article from Caroline Wilson:

GEELONG president Frank Costa likened the threat from soccer and the two rugby codes to a fruit and vegetable war.

Can someone explain this simile?

Does he means like competition between greengrocer shops? Or the type of mafia wars in the Melbourne fruit markets in the 60's? Or a fight where everyone throws fruit and vegies at each other?
Or he likened AFL to an apple, soccer to a grapefruit and rugby to a banana?
 
From today's article from Caroline Wilson:



Can someone explain this simile?

Does he means like competition between greengrocer shops? Or the type of mafia wars in the Melbourne fruit markets in the 60's? Or a fight where everyone throws fruit and vegies at each other?
Or he likened AFL to an apple, soccer to a grapefruit and rugby to a banana?
:confused: he should know even if noboddy else has any clue to what he is talking about
http://www.costalogistics.com.au/Logistics.asp?_=Company%20History
 
From today's article from Caroline Wilson:



Can someone explain this simile?

Does he means like competition between greengrocer shops? Or the type of mafia wars in the Melbourne fruit markets in the 60's? Or a fight where everyone throws fruit and vegies at each other?
Or he likened AFL to an apple, soccer to a grapefruit and rugby to a banana?
Great questions that deserve an answer.
 
From today's article from Caroline Wilson:



Can someone explain this simile?

Does he means like competition between greengrocer shops? Or the type of mafia wars in the Melbourne fruit markets in the 60's? Or a fight where everyone throws fruit and vegies at each other?
Or he likened AFL to an apple, soccer to a grapefruit and rugby to a banana?

Talking what he knows. If had been a baker he probably would have described it as a bunfight.
 

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