News Carlton AFLW Full Scale Review - UPDATE: Harford & Blues part ways

[blueboy25]

The impression I got from that statement was that it was mainly due to Harford not being able to commit to the role full-time (I’m guessing due to his radio gig, amongst other things). Though could also be a polite way of saying he was no longer suitable for the role, who knows…

Freo also still looking for a head coach, so that makes two clubs on the hunt. Will be interesting to see how this continues to play out.

Seems a lot of the dockers players are keen on Lisa Webb who is part of the Dogs AFLW coaching set up and her husband is part of the mens program at the dogs.

She doesn't seem keen on heading back to Perth so hopefully we will be speaking to her.

 

[Aphrodite]

 

[drunkill]

It's crazy to me that we had to rebuild the men's program from the ground up, but couldn't recognise the same issues with our woman's program. Are we one club or not?

It was a conscious decision by our club to exclude the women's program from the review and then to hold a review later for it.

'too much change' or something had been mentioned by Sayers after he became president in a podcast somewhere iirc. To be fair we were in a bit of a better position on the AFLW side of things after the 2021 season, however this past year with two poor seasons has made it look even worse that this review wasn't conducted 15 months ago alongside the men's review.

 

[Doro]

Sayers and Kinnersley had a first hand look at what went wrong at the top here. Once Trigg moved on it seemed the program became an afterthought. Get the right coach in and it could improve quickly Imo.

 

[katmanblue]

.

Bottom line... the program is treated like an afterthought.

I reckon I may have said something like this to you a couple of years ago.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[katmanblue]

It's crazy to me that we had to rebuild the men's program from the ground up, but couldn't recognise the same issues with our woman's program. Are we one club or not?

I reckon they looked at the shiny new facilities going into the Prince's Park rebuild and thought that would be enough.

Like buying a shiny new computer but running MS DOS 6.2 on it. It ain't gonna keep up with the Jones's.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[bigblueboy]

How do you know he puts in more than full time hours on AFLW? He hosts a morning radio show doesn't he? How much time and preparation goes into that?

Remarkably there is 168 hours in a week. Harford was performing long hours in his role as coach - often flying interstate every other weekend, training 4-5 days a week in season. Team meetings, mentoring, game preparation, scouting meetings. Well beyond the 40 hours a week considered full time in most workplaces.
The club might justify the sacking by saying we need a full time coach - but what they are really saying is: we can’t have you as coach because since we started losing your media role creates the perception that you are not fully invested in the AFLW program … well that’s what they have been saying on BigFooty anyway.
I’m not defending Harford’s removal - he had to go. But why use the full time coach as the reason? He lost the players, had a confusing game plan and had trouble managing the enormous discrepancies in player skills, experience … and attitude.
That’s why. If the club was so direct in its public commentary the witch hunt would go on and the potential for animosity increases.
Instead they took a different path. I get it.
Will be fascinating to see how Harford reacts publicly.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I reckon I may have said something like this to you a couple of years ago.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

I was never against the idea that the AFLW team wasn't equipped with what it needed. I am against the idea that it was all on Harford and that the departed players were mistreated. I was aware of the poor player behaviour and standards a couple of years ago.

 

[katmanblue]

Now that it looks like the club is starting to address some issues, it might be time to buy an AFLW membership to show support.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Remarkably there is 168 hours in a week. Harford was performing long hours in his role as coach - often flying interstate every other weekend, training 4-5 days a week in season. Team meetings, mentoring, game preparation, scouting meetings. Well beyond the 40 hours a week considered full time in most workplaces.
The club might justify the sacking by saying we need a full time coach - but what they are really saying is: we can’t have you as coach because since we started losing your media role creates the perception that you are not fully invested in the AFLW program … well that’s what they have been saying on BigFooty anyway.
I’m not defending Harford’s removal - he had to go. But why use the full time coach as the reason? He lost the players, had a confusing game plan and had trouble managing the enormous discrepancies in player skills, experience … and attitude.
That’s why. If the club was so direct in its public commentary the witch hunt would go on and the potential for animosity increases.
Instead they took a different path. I get it.
Will be fascinating to see how Harford reacts publicly.

Are you working in the AFLW program? I mean, this seems like rhetoric as to how much time Harford was able to put in. How much time did he work in comparison to Voss for example?

I see no point in suggesting that Harford was really working full time hours and he was sacked because he sucked. It's like you're wanting to continue the witchhunt.

 

[bigblueboy]

Are you working in the AFLW program? I mean, this seems like rhetoric as to how much time Harford was able to put in. How much time did he work in comparison to Voss for example?

I see no point in suggesting that Harford was really working full time hours and he was sacked because he sucked. It's like you're wanting to continue the witchhunt.

Nope that’s where you’ve deliberately misinterpreted what I’ve said.
And no, I’m not working on the AFLW program or the AFL program - and neither do you I’m guessing - but, remarkably I still have some insight into what happens within the club. If you want to go back through my posting history on Harford and the AFLW program, feel free - it’s not like I’ve developed an overnight interest.
Harford was sacked because he sucked and our AFLW program has sucked in recent years.

All this does provoke an interesting conversation: the AFL refuses to treat AFLW players as full time athletes - yet Carlton FC wants the coach to be full time (and paid in alignment with a FT role)… seems to be a little contradictory?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Nope that’s where you’ve deliberately misinterpreted what I’ve said.
And no, I’m not working on the AFLW program or the AFL program - and neither do you I’m guessing - but, remarkably I still have some insight into what happens within the club. If you want to go back through my posting history on Harford and the AFLW program, feel free - it’s not like I’ve developed an overnight interest.
Harford was sacked because he sucked and our AFLW program has sucked in recent years.

All this does provoke an interesting conversation: the AFL refuses to treat AFLW players as full time athletes - yet Carlton FC wants the coach to be full time (and paid in alignment with a FT role)… seems to be a little contradictory?

I haven't deliberately misinterpreted anything. You're pushing the narrative that Harford was only sacked because he sucked. You're furthering the conspiracy. If I misinterpreted, I've only done so based on what you said.

So neither of us work within the program. I'm not claiming I know Harford's worth here. I've only got his record to go on. A couple of successfull years and some crappy years. I see fault in Harford, the club, the development coaches and the recruitment.

Harford lost some players but some have been steadfastly in his corner. I see the divide as being based on player standards.

I can see where Harford might have fallen away in communication as our development and game plan application sunk. Nobody likes losing and everybody becomes harder to be around when these things happen and careers are on the line.

I don't see any contradiction between the AFL treating the competition as part time and Carlton wanting to appoint a full time coach. They are separate bodies.

Do we know if other AFLW clubs have full time coaches appointed?

 

[katmanblue]

I was never against the idea that the AFLW team wasn't equipped with what it needed. I am against the idea that it was all on Harford and that the departed players were mistreated. I was aware of the poor player behaviour and standards a couple of years ago.

I meant that the AFLW program was an afterthought or even box ticking exercise for the board, rather than something that was fully backed and supported.

The cynic in me thinks that AFLW getting upgraded facilities was only because it was required to get government funding not because it was a priority for the club.

 

[bigblueboy]

I don't see any contradiction between the AFL treating the competition as part time and Carlton wanting to appoint a full time coach.

Wonder if our AFLW players would agree?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I meant that the AFLW program was an afterthought or even box ticking exercise for the board, rather than something that was fully backed and supported.

The cynic in me thinks that AFLW getting upgraded facilities was only because it was required to get government funding not because it was a priority for the club.

Pressure was obviously put on to the club to carry out the review. We were getting embarrassed by the rapid decline. Whatever our reason for doing it, we've done it and just like it took Trigg to address our anti-female culture several years back, Sayers is stepping in to fix our club wide lack of effort again in this space. I don't really care why we did it, just that we are doing it.

We've always been pathetically slow to adjust to the way things should be done. Our history is littered with it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Wonder if our AFLW players would agree?

A contradiction in this case would be the AFL appointing a full time administrator for the AFLW, while maintaining the players are only part time. The contradiction lies with the AFL. Carlton's decision is completely separate.

I'm pretty sure several AFLW clubs have full time senior coaches. I've found articles where AFLW assistants have suggested they needed to be full time too, because you can't have just one full time coach for a team.

 

[FitzroyBlueBagger]

I feel a bit for Harf, i think he was invested as coach the playing group and the club, he gave it his best but once the review was announced it seemed inevitable it was going to discover a host of key areas which where clearly not up to standards and/or non existent altogether…

I think the review statement by Sayers underlining all of the key areas were quite predictable, although i think the line of needing a full time coach was out of respect for Harf although that comes at no surprise in which direction we need to go…

Like the men’s review i hope this is the chance also for the club to finally get fair dinkum in becoming the properly professional run club it needs to be, possibly a tough few years coming up on the field while resetting…

 

[branedotorg]

I reckon they looked at the shiny new facilities going into the Prince's Park rebuild and thought that would be enough.

Like buying a shiny new computer but running MS DOS 6.2 on it. It ain't gonna keep up with the Jones's.

On SM-F926B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Just got to load up the autoexec.bat and himem.sys and finals bound

 

[bigblueboy]

A contradiction in this case would be the AFL appointing a full time administrator for the AFLW, while maintaining the players are only part time. The contradiction lies with the AFL. Carlton's decision is completely separate.

I'm pretty sure several AFLW clubs have full time senior coaches. I've found articles where AFLW assistants have suggested they needed to be full time too, because you can't have just one full time coach for a team.

Well that’s your view and one I disagree with.

We know the AFL restricts player and coach earning ability by the imposition of soft caps on coaching staff, by regulating the AFLW season length and through collective bargaining agreements.

At present, the message they are sending is: the AFLW is a part-time competition - employ and pay your staff and players in line with this approach.

Now Carlton is saying we need greater investment in full time coaching. There’s really only a few possibly avenues to pursue this outcome:
1. Employ a coach for longer hours on a lower hourly rate to remain under the soft cap.

2. Pay the coach full time at the appropriate hourly rate but reduce the FTE coaching staff overall

3. Find a way to pay a coach outside the soft cap

If I’m a player, I’d be asking questions as to why the club is adamant about investing in a “full time” coach but seemingly hasn’t explicitly identified full time players as a need in its review … only suggesting it needs to address “professionalism”.

And I’d be asking how the club intends on structuring the coaching group given there’s no indication (at this point) that more money will be available in the soft cap.

 

[Teen Wolf]

Well that’s your view and one I disagree with.

We know the AFL restricts player and coach earning ability by the imposition of soft caps on coaching staff, by regulating the AFLW season length and through collective bargaining agreements.

At present, the message they are sending is: the AFLW is a part-time competition - employ and pay your staff and players in line with this approach.

Now Carlton is saying we need greater investment in full time coaching. There’s really only a few possibly avenues to pursue this outcome:
1. Employ a coach for longer hours on a lower hourly rate to remain under the soft cap.

2. Pay the coach full time at the appropriate hourly rate but reduce the FTE coaching staff overall

3. Find a way to pay a coach outside the soft cap

If I’m a player, I’d be asking questions as to why the club is adamant about investing in a “full time” coach but seemingly hasn’t explicitly identified full time players as a need in its review … only suggesting it needs to address “professionalism”.

And I’d be asking how the club intends on structuring the coaching group given there’s no indication (at this point) that more money will be available in the soft cap.

You're way off the mark. There are no soft cap issues. Carlton lured Lauren Morecroft from North Melbourne due to being able to pay her more as an assistant coach.

Where is she now? Coaching a NAB League boys team. Why? Can't address that elephant in the room, might reflect poorly on some members of the current playing group.

 

[jj1978]

Basically like the release of SOS from list management the club had a perceived out by using in this instance the full time role thing. Reading between the lines in terms of confusion on game plan, standards, etc... so the full time thing is just a polite way to not publicly fully shame him. Time to freshen up the list, the coaching and get some revenge and start poaching a couple decent players from other teams.

Ladies, time to get serious about your footy and professionalism too, as "game changers" and acknowledgement it was going to take a good 10-15 years for the AFLW to establish itself you're not going to end up being as well paid as future gens but you'll setup the groundwork for them and hopefully in time the competition can compensate you somewhat retrospectively.

 

[gbatman]

It's crazy to me that we had to rebuild the men's program from the ground up, but couldn't recognise the same issues with our woman's program. Are we one club or not?

You'd think we would learn a bit from the mistakes of the past with the AFL program. But no, we were very much Carlton of 2000-2020 about this. Being half-arsed, going without with our off field staff and getting poor results. This has been us forever. Sure we have been in poor financial positions in the past but being where we are now there is no excuse.

 

[bigblueboy]

You're way off the mark. There are no soft cap issues. Carlton lured Lauren Morecroft from North Melbourne due to being able to pay her more as an assistant coach.

Where is she now? Coaching a NAB League boys team. Why? Can't address that elephant in the room, might reflect poorly on some members of the current playing group.

I'm not saying there has been in the past.
But if we are talking about employing full time coaches and assistants in the future, that's beyond the scope of the current soft cap. The soft cap as it current stands is aligned with the AFL's approach that it is a part-time competition.
Some clubs (not all want to spend more money in AFLW) have been advocating for an extension of the AFLW soft cap so they can invest more in coaching and development ... this is the only palatable way I can see us delivering on the promises of the AFLW review without compromising either coaching/development experience or numbers.

 

[jj1978]

You'd think we would learn a bit from the mistakes of the past with the AFL program. But no, we were very much Carlton of 2000-2020 about this. Being half-arsed, going without with our off field staff and getting poor results. This has been us forever. Sure we have been in poor financial positions in the past but being where we are now there is no excuse.

you mean harf-arsed?

 

[BlueGum]

I'm not saying there has been in the past.
But if we are talking about employing full time coaches and assistants in the future, that's beyond the scope of the current soft cap. The soft cap as it current stands is aligned with the AFL's approach that it is a part-time competition.
Some clubs (not all want to spend more money in AFLW) have been advocating for an extension of the AFLW soft cap so they can invest more in coaching and development ... this is the only palatable way I can see us delivering on the promises of the AFLW review without compromising either coaching/development experience or numbers.

Other clubs have good programs with the same soft cap limitations. We should be able to find a way to get the resourcing and personnel improved.

 

[ItsAllAboutMe]

Harf should have walked at the end of last season, has been abysmal since taking the reigns.. He coached Balwyn in the EFL to many flags because they had double the match payments of the nearest competitor.. this doesnt make you a good coach