Carlton by over 39.5...

[GuzzLG]

Exactly. Round 22 vs Demons. Win and get Pick 2 (and get only Judd or Kreuzer) or lose and get Picks 1 and 3 (Judd and Kreuzer). Hmmm, I wonder what happened?










On a side note I would say that Carltank's culture and future would be better if they had won that game, and picked up Cotchin with Pick 2, then they would have had a chf (Kennedy) and a decent young mid (Cotchin) instead of a player with one leg (Judd) another Cain Ackland (Kreuzer) and 'good' young mids including Murphy (Shaun McManus Mach II) and Gibbs (Simon Godfrey Mach II).

It's funny how karma works out for carltank. Their constant failures brings people plenty of reassurance about the world.

 

[bourbons]

Look, hit back do what you want. Its your club after all.

The thread might have started out as a carlton bash session but not our discussion. I thought you realised this.

This is how our Libba discussion started;

Not when talking about carlton. No one is allowed apparently.

No one has integrity when having a go at the once famous club.

If you want to try to say it wasn't related or it wasn't a dig, fine, but I don't think anyone's buying it

 

[Jesse Custer]

This is how our Libba discussion started;



If you want to try to say it wasn't related or it wasn't a dig, fine, but I don't think anyone's buying it

Its related yes, but not bashing no.

Two different things.

 

[bourbons]

Everybody knows that carlton tanked lol. I don't even know why you guys are debating that. Embarrassing for the carlton fans denying it.

No question, and I'm not denying it.

What pisses carlton fans of is when we are accused of cheating because of this, or being the only club in history to tank for draft pics.

 

[bourbons]

Its related yes, but not bashing no.

Two different things.

Ah so finally we get to it, it was related. Cheers.

See, wasn't that hard to 'fess up.

 

[choco123]

No question, and I'm not denying it.

What pisses carlton fans of is when we are accused of cheating because of this, or being the only club in history to tank for draft pics.

Sniff Sniff....No I'm not Troy Buswell, but I smell a backtrack.

You are the same guy who has been debating for three pages about how Libba is a lying thug who lied about Carlton tanking for attention, and then quickly retracted his allegations after he was made aware of how serious they were?

Carlton cheated the system (however flawed it is ). That is what other posters are talking about. And there can be no denial that they have been, and will probably in the future, cheat the Salary Cap!

That's why Carltank are regarded as a bunch of cheaters!

 

[Beerfish]

No question, and I'm not denying it.

What pisses carlton fans of is when we are accused of cheating because of this, or being the only club in history to tank for draft pics.

Wait a minute. Wait a minute.

You spend a considerable amount of time arguing about Libba's integrity and you state that he lied about Carlton tanking because he was bitter about getting the arse, then you turn around and say yes they tanked, no question and I'm not denying it.

Soooo Libba lied when he said something which you also believe to be true...because he has no integrity, despite the fact he was an employee of the club who sat in the coaches box every week and you're just a supporter who has no contact with the coaching staff whatsoever?

 

[bourbons]

Nope, backtracking is JColeman's department

It comes down to how you define it. Of course Carlton made some questionable selections and moves but, for me, as long as the 22 players out on the ground are going their hardest, tanking is not as big a deal as its made out to be. I know you probably won't agree but FWIW, there is still no definition of what tanking actually is.

Clubs did it before the draft was even invented, its called list management and getting games into younger players when you're no chance for finals. Why shouldn't a club send players off for ops and get them right for next season?

Carlton cheated the system (however flawed it is ). That is what other posters are talking about. And there can be no denial that they have been, and will probably in the future, cheat the Salary Cap!

I realise thats what other posters are talking about - its just plain wrong. We operated within the system, therefore cannot have cheated - its a fairly simple concept. There are concerns about the system which are very valid, but thats for the AFL to be hit with, not Carlton.

RE: Salary cap - again, are we the only club to have done it? I can't help but notice none of the usual suspects have responded to Johnny's post.. gee I wonder why;

Read and learn:
* Essendon paid Lloyd and Hird a sum of money OUTSIDE of the cap for the rights to their websites: matthewlloyd.com and jameshird.com. Amount was believed to be $10-20k per player.

* A subsequent investigation found that to this day the website addresses have NEVER EVER been registered.

* Result = Essendon paid 2 players a sum of money OUTSIDE of the salary cap for NOTHING. In the words of the great Dire Straits it was "Money for nothin'".

I would very much like to see this one tested again by another club, but then again i guess they can't rely on their mates on the AFL commission (cough Ron Evans cough) to get them out of trouble like the Bummers did.

RE: Libba, I still believe he came out and said what he said coz he's a bitter little man who didn't get offered a job. It comes back this myth about Carlton being the only team in history to tank for draft pics - other teams have done, will do, and are doing it. We just happened to be the poor buggers Libba was working for, in the situation that we were - he just saw an opportunity to give us some trouble on his way out and took it. You can't really argue that Libba thought it through all that well..

 

[Barry Zuckercorn]

Sniff Sniff....No I'm not Troy Buswell, but I smell a backtrack.

You are the same guy who has been debating for three pages about how Libba is a lying thug who lied about Carlton tanking for attention, and then quickly retracted his allegations after he was made aware of how serious they were?

Carlton cheated the system (however flawed it is ). That is what other posters are talking about. And there can be no denial that they have been, and will probably in the future, cheat the Salary Cap!

That's why Carltank are regarded as a bunch of cheaters!

The love affair with Carlton continues i see choco?

 

[Beerfish]

It comes down to how you define it. Of course Carlton made some questionable selections and moves but, for me, as long as the 22 players out on the ground are going their hardest, tanking is not as big a deal as its made out to be. I know you probably won't agree but FWIW, there is still no definition of what tanking actually is.

Okay so we're getting into the murky depths and grey areas of definitions and what "tanking" actually is..

FWIW I define tanking as purposely not giving your club the best opportunity possible to win any given match in the hopes to attain higher draft picks at the season's conclusion.

I realise thats what other posters are talking about - its just plain wrong. We operated within the system, therefore cannot have cheated - its a fairly simple concept. There are concerns about the system which are very valid, but thats for the AFL to be hit with, not Carlton.

So you're happy to be known as tankers? Why all the argument then?

RE: Libba, I still believe he came out and said what he said coz he's a bitter little man who didn't get offered a job. It comes back this myth about Carlton being the only team in history to tank for draft pics - other teams have done, will do, and are doing it. We just happened to be the poor buggers Libba was working for, in the situation that we were - he just saw an opportunity to give us some trouble on his way out and took it. You can't really argue that Libba thought it through all that well..

Certainly can't.

He should've been wired.

 

[bourbons]

FWIW I define tanking as purposely not giving your club the best opportunity possible to win any given match in the hopes to attain higher draft picks at the season's conclusion.

As I said, been going on for years before the draft was even thought of. Not playing some of your best players in games they would normally get up for and sending them away for surgery when you're out of the finals race is not a new concept.

Its only a big issue now because of the way the system is set up which, again, is the AFLs problem.

So you're happy to be known as tankers? Why all the argument then?

Thats my point exactly. If we're known as tankers, why not Collingwood, Hawthorn and a few others?

 

[Jesse Custer]

The only thing bourbons is good at is giving people whacks in other posts.

The game last year against Melbourne smelled worst than my shits in the morning.

You have been caught with your pants down.

 

[Beerfish]

As I said, been going on for years before the draft was even thought of. Not playing some of your best players in games they would normally get up for and sending them away for surgery when you're out of the finals race is not a new concept.

Its only a big issue now because of the way the system is set up which, again, is the AFLs problem.

Essendon don't tank.

Thats my point exactly. If we're known as tankers, why not Collingwood, Hawthorn and a few others?

This thread isn't about Collingwood, Hawthorn and a few others. It's about Carlton. Maybe you should start one if it bothers you that much.

You can't deny that in the modern era, no team deserves the reputation and associated stigma more than Carlton because nobody has done it for as hard and as long as Carlton. In fact, Carlton may well be the first club in history to actually have supporters that recognise this and consider it a thing to be proud of.

 

[bourbons]

Essendon don't tank.

They haven't needed to and have never been in the situation to do so.

This thread isn't about Collingwood, Hawthorn and a few others. It's about Carlton. Maybe you should start one if it bothers you that much.

You seem suprised that I defend my club when they are singled out over actions that other clubs have also carried out. I've already covered this, and btw starting a new thread seems like a strange way to respond to posts I have issue with in this thread.

You can't deny that in the modern era, no team deserves the reputation and associated stigma more than Carlton because nobody has done it for as hard and as long as Carlton.

No team has ever been as bad for as long as Carlton in the modern era, therefore we got the picks. Are you seriously going to suggest Carlton weren't all that bad over the last few years?

Again, it sounds like you have a problem with the system - don't blame the club that works the system.

In fact, Carlton may well be the first club in history to actually have supporters that recognise this and consider it a thing to be proud of.

I said I don't deny it, where do I say I am proud?

The game last year against Melbourne smelled worst than my shits in the morning.

You have been caught with your pants down.

I don't deny it, but have been caught with my pants down? Riiigght

 

[VelvetSledge]

Thanks for the info guys.......it's reassuring knowing we are capable of re-surfacing from the depths to being the greatest Premiership winning team ever within the next few seasons, while Essendon will probably be cleaning out 'Chickenliver' Knights cupboards, so that a 65 year old Sheedy can come back and save the club from being re-located to Phillip Island!

Fevola, Stevens gone = Carlton gone

Chickenliver?

Only clubs with financial troubles are threatened to move somewhere. We're one of the most well off clubs in the league.

You're an A-Grade flog.

 

[Beerfish]

They haven't needed to and have never been in the situation to do so.

Incorrect. We could have tanked for at least the last couple of seasons if our club had no pride.

No team has ever been as bad for as long as Carlton in the modern era, therefore we got the picks. Are you seriously going to suggest Carlton weren't all that bad over the last few years?

Not at all. Carlton were bad alright, in fact they were terrible. The point is you could have been better than you were but concsiously chose not to be.

Again, it sounds like you have a problem with the system - don't blame the club that works the system.

Yes I do. By virtue of this I also have a problem with clubs that systematically rort the failings in the system at the expense of pride and self respect not to mention the other clubs who might need those picks more.

I said I don't deny it, where do I say I am proud?

I wasn't referring to you specifically in this sense. I said supporters. I was being general. They do exist. Sorry to be the one to break this to you if you weren't already aware.

 

[SANFORDWHEELER]

Everybody knows that carlton tanked lol. I don't even know why you guys are debating that. Embarrassing for the carlton fans denying it.

thanks for the trolling snapperhead. you'll have plenty of time to develop some abolsute corkers during coming Septembers.

Is it hard typing with one hand?

 

[sunnyTEE]

thanks for the trolling snapperhead. you'll have plenty of time to develop some abolsute corkers during coming Septembers.

Is it hard typing with one hand?

I suggest it would be easier than humming your post for your boyfriend to type whilst his plums are base deep in your mouth.

 

[Beerfish]

I suggest it would be easier than humming your post for your boyfriend to type whilst his plums are base deep in your mouth.

I'm glad I didn't have a mouthful of coffee then because that, my furry little friend, was f_____n hilarious.

 

[Jesse Custer]

I suggest it would be easier than humming your post for your boyfriend to type whilst his plums are base deep in your mouth.

My friend Sunny, you are a comedy genius.

That is f@@king funny.

 

[Burzum]

i Suggest It Would Be Easier Than Humming Your Post For Your Boyfriend To Type Whilst His Plums Are Base Deep In Your Mouth.

Lmao

 

[bourbons]

Incorrect. We could have tanked for at least the last couple of seasons if our club had no pride.

lol, tanked your way to what, 13th instead of 12th? You won twice as many games as Melbourne last year! Essendon has never really been in a position where you are derelict if you don't consider tanking as an option, certainly not to the extent carlton has.

Not at all. Carlton were bad alright, in fact they were terrible. The point is you could have been better than you were but concsiously chose not to be.

Maybe, marginally better. So what? We get Cotchin instead of Kreuzer, Thomas instead of Murphy, would that make you feel better? Point is we were legitimately woeful by anyone's standards. The only thing of substance that would be different is we wouldn't have got a priority pick last year and, as unpalatable as tanking is, I can't honestly say that I'm sorry we did it, coz that extra pick eventually allowed us to get Judd.

I also can't quite bring myself to believe supporters of other teams would be that down on their club for not playing their best 22 week in, week out, in the back half of a season after languishing at the bottom of the ladder for 5 years, if it enabled them to snare the best player in the comp.

Yes I do. By virtue of this I also have a problem with clubs that systematically rort the failings in the system at the expense of pride and self respect not to mention the other clubs who might need those picks more.

I'd support getting rid of the priority pick, it avoids the situation I just described. But you're kidding yourself if you think there were clubs who needed picks more than Carlton over the last few years. I understand that you hate us more, but don't let that cloud your judgement.

Since the draft came in, Essendon has never been as low as Carlton was recently and, while I'm sure you'll say that the bombers won't tank, ever, no matter how bad it might get, I don't see how you can say that with any certainty until you're in that situation.

I honestly hope Essendon never are, its not fun

 

[Beerfish]

lol, tanked your way to what, 13th instead of 12th? You won twice as many games as Melbourne last year! Essendon has never really been in a position where you are derelict if you don't consider tanking as an option, certainly not to the extent carlton has.

I love the way you try to justify it as the right thing to do. Carlton could have just sucked it up and done it tough and kept what little pride and reputation they had left intact. Instead they chose to tank. Now they have to suffer the derision of every other club instead.

Derelict my balls.

Maybe, marginally better. So what? We get Cotchin instead of Kreuzer, Thomas instead of Murphy, would that make you feel better? Point is we were legitimately woeful by anyone's standards. The only thing of substance that would be different is we wouldn't have got a priority pick last year and, as unpalatable as tanking is, I can't honestly say that I'm sorry we did it, coz that extra pick eventually allowed us to get Judd.

That's the sad thing about Carlton supporters. I'd be devastated and ashamed to know my club didn't try to win for whatever reason no matter what their position and outlook. It makes eventual success that much sweeter and taint free.

As it stands I'm not sure what would be worse, tanking for all those years to eventually win a tainted flag or tanking all those years and eventually winning nothing.. probably the latter I guess.

I'd support getting rid of the priority pick, it avoids the situation I just described. But you're kidding yourself if you think there were clubs who needed picks more than Carlton over the last few years. I understand that you hate us more, but don't let that cloud your judgement.

If you hadn't tanked there's a fair chance you wouldn't have finished last, meaning that another team who legitimately required the picks would have got them. If you substitute the word "wanted" for "needed" in the highlighted part of your post I'd agree with you.

Since the draft came in, Essendon has never been as low as Carlton was recently and, while I'm sure you'll say that the bombers won't tank, ever, no matter how bad it might get, I don't see how you can say that with any certainty until you're in that situation.

I honestly hope Essendon never are, its not fun

2005 - 13th
2006 - 15th
2007 - 12th

We could have tanked in any one of these seasons with 2006 being the standout opportunity. Not necessarily to come 16th but to improve our allocation of selections nonetheless.

We've never been as low as Carlton because we don't tank.

 

[Jesse Custer]

We've never been as low as Carlton because we don't tank.

Sorry for deleting most of your post, but that quote is basically the bottom line and the difference between the two clubs.

 

[GuzzLG]

And even more proof why carlton fans are the scum of the AFL.

They are telling us we need to consider doing something to get some high draft picks. This is of course because all clubs need spend 6 years in the bottom 2 to have ANY chance at all of building a successful team. You see, stockpiling #1 picks is the only thing to do. It's impossible to draft good players if they're not number 1. See Andrew Walker and Jordan Russell for example.

Hello! Our list is better than yours, more promising, yet you're telling us we need to do this and do that. LOL, you have to love their arrogance.