Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[BlueE]

I'm not going to quote the whole thing BlueE but even that's inconsistent to what you said.

You said "serious heart inflammation adverse events seen at many times higher the expected rate"

TGA says "Our analysis of Australian data indicates there is a higher-than-expected number of cases of myocarditis in vaccinated".

Not the same thing.

TGA also advises: "The TGA is looking closely at Australian reports, however because use of Spikevax is still relatively low, we are not able to calculate reliable reporting rates for the population yet."

So again what you are saying IS NOT A FACT.

You also omitted this from the advice"

"The GACVS COVID-19 sub-committee has reviewed preliminary data from the Nordic study and notes that further analyses are ongoing to control for potential biases. The sub-committee has also reviewed data from Australia, Canada (3), Israel, and the US (4), and notes that, some, but not all data suggest a higher incidence of myocarditis after a second dose of the COVID19 vaccine from Moderna (Spikevax) than the mRNA vaccine from Pfizer (Comirnaty) in young males, although the overall risk is small. Further data are needed to understand the strengths/weaknesses of different epidemiological methodologies, sample sizes, and data sources, and their impact on these observations.

So you're just picking SOME studies and saying they are fact. That's fraudulent.


It's interesting that Finland is one of the countries mention.

I have mentioned this with kingswood71 previously that I don't believe the rate of incidences is any higher than it would normally be. A study in Finland a while back had occurrences of deaths of from myocarditis was one out of they two thousand deaths.

How many deaths from vaccine this year and how many deaths this year?

Since the TGA has limited numbers, and still have found higher than expected numbers of myocarditis than unvaccinated, while presentation to the FDA in June this year, showed many times more myocarditis in 18 to 24 male age group males after second dose, you're splitting hairs trying to say ITS NOT A FACT.

Grow up!

Another fact is that Moderna is still banned or age restricted in many countries and Pfizer's second dose for under 18s in at least two as well.

Most important fact is that long-term randomized double blinded placebo-controlled clinical trials haven't been competed or nine FDA ordered clinical trials into myopericarditis, becasue of safety concerns for under 30s and younger.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Melbourne Storm players would need to be vaccinated wouldn’t they ?

And Broncos, Titans and Cowboys

 

[DERO]

Melbourne Storm players would need to be vaccinated wouldn’t they ?

I would assume so.

 

[kingswood71]

Great! Like to see that if possible.

I made that statement based on the sharply increasing number of cases they keep calling "unclassified becasue of not enough information", so I'd like to see evidence that they've investigated test cases.

I'm also curious why they haven't reported numbers since 30th October safety report?

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 02-09-2021
In Australia, the vaccine is now recommended for adolescents aged 12 years and over.

To 29 August 2021, we have received 293 reports of suspected myocarditis and/or pericarditis following vaccination with Comirnaty (Pfizer). Nine of these reports were in children – 8 boys and 1 girl, all aged 16 or 17 years old.

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 09-09-2021
To 5 September 2021, we have received 370 reports of suspected myocarditis and/or pericarditis following vaccination with Comirnaty (Pfizer). Twelve of these reports were in children – 10 boys and 2 girls aged 15–17 years old. Five cases occurred after the first dose and 7 after the second dose.

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 16-09-2021
Of the reports received, 128 reported suspected myocarditis. We have reviewed these cases against an internationally accepted case definition for myocarditis to classify how certain it is that these cases reflect myocarditis.

90 were classified as likely to be myocarditis (3 were level 1, 35 were level 2 and 52 reports were level 3)

11 were deemed unlikely to be myocarditis

27 could not be classified because they did not contain enough information

For the cases classified as likely to be myocarditis patients were between 16 and 60 years-old

Similarly, we have seen that cases are reported more frequently in teenage boys after the second dose.

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 23-09-2021
Suggests there is a higher-than-expected number of cases in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals, indicating that in rare cases the vaccine may cause myocarditis. International data indicates that cases are more frequently reported in teenage boys after the second dose. To 19 September, we have received 8 reports of suspected myocarditis in adolescents aged 15-17 years – 7 boys and one girl.

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 30-09-2021

To 26 September 2021, we have received 850 reports of suspected myocarditis and/or pericarditis following vaccination with the Comirnaty (Pfizer) vaccine.
Of the reports received, 178 reported suspected myocarditis.

• 115 were classified as likely to be myocarditis (4 were level 1, 46 were level 2 and 65 reports were level 3)
• 21 were deemed unlikely to be myocarditis
• 42 could not be classified because they did not contain enough information

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 14-10-2021

Our analysis of Australian data indicates there is a higher-than-expected number of cases of myocarditis in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals for Comirnaty (Pfizer). This is similar to findings from other drug regulators overseas.

To 10 October 2021 for Comirnaty (Pfizer), we have received 269 reports of suspected myocarditis alone or in combination with pericarditis, with 31 of these reports in adolescents (12-17 years-old). We have also received 725 reports of suspected pericarditis alone, with 37 of these reports in adolescents. In the same period for Spikevax (Moderna), we have received one report of suspected myocarditis and 13 reports of suspected pericarditis, all in adults.

Our analysis focuses on data for the Comirnaty (Pfizer) vaccine. We have reviewed the 269 reports of suspected myocarditis for Comirnaty (Pfizer) against an internationally accepted case definition for myocarditis to classify how certain it is that these cases reflect myocarditis. This assessment does not determine whether cases have been caused by vaccination.

• 161 were classified as likely to be myocarditis (12 were level 1, 48 were level 2 and 101 reports were level 3)
• 27 were deemed unlikely to be myocarditis
• 80 could not be classified because they did not contain enough information

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 21-10-2021

To 17 October 2021, we have received 312 reports of suspected myocarditis alone or in combination with pericarditis, with 43 of these reports in adolescents (12-17 years-old). We have also received 836 reports of suspected pericarditis alone, with 47 of these reports in adolescents. In the same period for Spikevax (Moderna), we have received 5 reports of suspected myocarditis and 28 reports of suspected pericarditis. Two of the pericarditis cases were in children – both boys aged 12 and 16 years. Of the 312 suspected cases:

• 175 were classified as likely to be myocarditis (20 were level 1, 109 were level 2 and 46 reports were level 3)
• 58 were deemed unlikely to be myocarditis
• 78 could not be classified because they did not contain enough information

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 28-10-2021
Details of Australian cases to 24 October 2021

Our analysis of Australian data indicates there is a higher-than-expected number of cases of myocarditis in vaccinated compared to unvaccinated individuals for Comirnaty (Pfizer). This is similar to findings from other drug regulators overseas.

In the UK, higher rates of myocarditis and pericarditis have been reported with Spikevax (Moderna) than with Comirnaty (Pfizer). The TGA is looking closely at Australian reports, however because use of Spikevax is still relatively low, we are not able to calculate reliable reporting rates for the population yet.

We have received 404 reports of suspected myocarditis alone or in combination with pericarditis, with 67 of these reports in adolescents (12- 17-years-old). We have also received 971 reports of suspected pericarditis alone, with 65 of these reports in adolescents.

Of the 404 suspected cases:

• 235 were classified as likely to be myocarditis (25 were level 1, 153 were level 2 and 57 reports were level 3)
• 75 were deemed unlikely to be myocarditis
• 97 could not be classified because they did not contain enough information.

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 11-11-2021

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.

www.tga.gov.au

It is now 511 suspected cases, 70 level 1-3.
The answer to you question about classification is simple. After inquiry they could not determine if was level 1-3 based on what has been reported.
We like to have criteria to make diagnoses.
The criteria of what is a level 1-3 is given in their table footnotes.
If (after inquiry) it is not apparent that myocarditis IS the most likely diagnosis, then its not myocarditis.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Covid and flu comparisons are ridiculous. Covid is far more deadlier, far more contagious and causes permanent damage and illness to some people (Long Covid).

So you don't think preventing thousands of deaths a year by mandating a vax is not worth it? You do realise the flu is actually just as dangerous or even more in some cases for children right? **** the kids though they don't matter. Im trying to open your eyes to how you have created an arbitrary line where you think mandates become acceptable once a threshold of death prevention is achieved.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Looks more like they are doing some restrictions to protect the 15% unvaccinated.....
"Last month, unvaccinated COVID-19 patients in Dutch hospitals had a median age of 59 compared with 77 for vaccinated patients, data provided by the Netherlands’ Institute for Health (RIVM) showed. Roughly 56 percent of Dutch COVID-19 patients were unvaccinated or partially vaccinated. Among intensive care COVID-19 patients, 70 percent were not vaccinated or partially vaccinated."

Dutch experts recommend COVID-19 lockdown to fight surge in cases

Advice from the Netherlands’ Outbreak Management Team could lead to Western Europe’s first lockdown since summer.

www.aljazeera.com

Protect them from something they don't wish to be 'protected' against. Seems right. BTW those statistics don't paint a great picture for the Vax crowd... Seems the more cases and data we get the worse the Vax performs.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

So how is it you know 15 people who have had covid and none had any side effects other than 1 person who had a night or 2 in hospital?

The world is bigger than Australia my friend.

 

[BlueE]

COVID-19 vaccine weekly safety report - 11-11-2021

Information about the TGA's safety monitoring of COVID-19 vaccines.

www.tga.gov.au

It is now 511 suspected cases, 70 level 1-3.
The answer to you question about classification is simple. After inquiry they could not determine if was level 1-3 based on what has been reported.
We like to have criteria to make diagnoses.
The criteria of what is a level 1-3 is given in their table footnotes.
If (after inquiry) it is not apparent that myocarditis IS the most likely diagnosis, then its not myocarditis.

How many not included becasue not enough information? Reported previously as I listed.

All it need is further investigation.

They'd already made decisions on reports were "deemed unlikely to be myocarditis" which I haven't questioned, and are separate from cases excluded becasue there is not enough information.

You claimed you have a letter they have investigated these cases and I'd like to see that.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Yes I do know somebody received Pfizer and had myocarditis. One person. Me.

I highly doubt it was because of the vaccine. And when I say highly doubt, I'm just being polite.

By the way how is yours and my anecdotal evidence versus multiple studies over years in biology and immunology regarding immune response to virus causing myocarditis more valuable?

You failed to mention but which part of my post was in contention?

You highly doubt it was because of the vaccine? So you just happened to get it not long after receiving the injection? The odds of you getting it not long after the jab and it not being because of the jab are a needle in a haystack at best. If you honestly believe that I don't know what to say.

I see you didn't answer my last question and moved on to another poster.

Why do all anti-vaxxers act in the exact same way of dodging and reposting?

Funny you call me 'anti-vax' even though I have received 2 doses of a covid jab (az i received by choice because of the heart issues). I am just willing to accept it is not perfect and there are issues with the jabs that the governments around the world really need to force the manufacturers to improve the jabs so these bad side effects don't occur for nobody or for very minimal people compared to what's happening currently.

Putting your head in the sand and denying what's happening doesn't help nobody

 

[Hawk Dork]

The world is bigger than Australia my friend.

Q is everywhere

 

[Gruffles]

Merck patent on IVM expired, so they make nothing from it's use. This is why other manufacturers are allowed to produce it and can make it cheaply.

Interestly, they pre sold Molnupirvir for billions to many countries, then in a magnanimous gesture gave the formula for third world countries to produce cheaply for their use. However, India did it's own trials on the drug which they had to halt for safety reasons.

I'm not sure this is entirely true, but correct me if I'm wrong. Merck hasn't "given the formula to third world countries", but rather gone into licencing deals with companies to manufacture generic molnupiravir to be sold at lower prices to low/middle income countries. I have no problem at all with this as it is making an effort to supply medication to all rather than only a few.

I also can't find any information showing that an India trial had been halted for "safety reasons", but rather that two companies halted their trial on covid patients with moderate symptoms due to the drug not showing significant efficacy in these cases, but they would continue the trial on patients with mild symptoms as it was showing successful outcomes there. Again, if I've missed the information you've seen then please point me to it.

BlueE, I notice you're back in the thread but you seem to have missed my post above. No problem as there's plenty of posts flying around but I was wondering if you had that information that shows that Merck gifted their formula, and that India halted trials on molnupirvir for safety reasons rather than the reasons I stated above.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

For crying out loud, Stocks. This is now the third time I've told you that I don't see the need for the blanket mandate that has been put in place, but rather support the idea of mandates in key industries, such as healthcare, police force, and teaching. I believe we would reach our vaccination targets without the blanket mandate, and I've said this a number of times with some of those times in direct reply to you.

Add this to the long list of facts that you've misrepresented and another example of where you've completely ignored what has been previously said.

I just don't see how anyone can justify the mandate for any industry. It's clear now this is about percentages and likelihoods. If you run a hospital it won't matter if you have both vaxxed and unvaxxed staff because both are capable of carrying the virus. The only way to control it would be daily antigen tests. As I said if doctor A likes to party and interact with his large social circle but is vaxxed and doctor B lives a quiet life without much social interaction at home then A is more likely to carry the virus even though he is vaxxed.

 

[DERO]

And Broncos, Titans and Cowboys

Serious question for you. If 95% of people are vaccinated, do we still need to mandate vaccination?

 

[Hawk Dork]

I just don't see how anyone can justify the mandate for any industry. It's clear now this is about percentages and likelihoods. If you run a hospital it won't matter if you have both vaxxed and unvaxxed staff because both are capable of carrying the virus. The only way to control it would be daily antigen tests. As I said if doctor A likes to party and interact with his large social circle but is vaxxed and doctor B lives a quiet life without much social interaction at home then A is more likely to carry the virus even though he is vaxxed.

are you doing your own research on this have you considered a career in youtube or politics or scented candles or all 3?

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

You highly doubt it was because of the vaccine? So you just happened to get it not long after receiving the injection? The odds of you getting it not long after the jab and it not being because of the jab are a needle in a haystack at best. If you honestly believe that I don't know what to say.


Funny you call me 'anti-vax' even though I have received 2 doses of a covid jab (az i received by choice because of the heart issues). I am just willing to accept it is not perfect and there are issues with the jabs that the governments around the world really need to force the manufacturers to improve the jabs so these bad side effects don't occur for nobody or for very minimal people compared to what's happening currently.

Putting your head in the sand and denying what's happening doesn't help nobody

Exactly this - I'm also vaccinated but can see clearly that the 'vax' does indeed have side effects for a lot of people and doesn't work as well as it's supposed to.. Requires boosters every 6 months which I'm not sure many people signed up for - definitely not worthy of a mandate and removing good people from society for having valid concerns.

 

[Gruffles]

I just don't see how anyone can justify the mandate for any industry. It's clear now this is about percentages and likelihoods. If you run a hospital it won't matter if you have both vaxxed and unvaxxed staff because both are capable of carrying the virus. The only way to control it would be daily antigen tests. As I said if doctor A likes to party and interact with his large social circle but is vaxxed and doctor B lives a quiet life without much social interaction at home then A is more likely to carry the virus even though he is vaxxed.

It's all good that you can't see the justification that I see. It just means we are seeing things a little differently.

I don't see the purpose in asking a cafe staffer to be vaccinated in order to work. I absolutely see the purpose in asking a hospital staffer to be vaccinated in order to work. Much the same as I wouldn't see the purpose in asking a cafe staffer to be vaccinated against TB in order to work but I absolutely see the purpose in asking a hospital staffer to be vaccinated against TB in order to work.

(Note: by hospital staffer I mean those that are in direct contact with patients)

 

[Louie the Lipinski]

If only Essendon's 2012 team had Liam's "courage"

 

[Hawk Dork]

Serious question for you. If 95% of people are vaccinated, do we still need to mandate vaccination?

waning efficacy
and % of unvaxxed clogging hospitals says yes

 

[kaiserchief13]

waning efficacy
and % of unvaxxed clogging hospitals says yes

Isn't the solution to improve the vax rather than force everyone to get it? If getting a vax meant 100% or close to it immunity from being sick from covid what would it matter if people don't want to get it? You can get it yourself, live your life like normal and not worry about what other people do

 

[Hawk Dork]

Isn't the solution to improve the vax rather than force everyone to get it? If getting a vax meant 100% or close to it immunity from being sick from covid what would it matter if people don't want to get it? You can get it yourself, live your life like normal and not worry about what other people do

Yes and no
Both matter
When Germany has 90% unvaxxed clogging its hospitals a better vax isnt going to help

 

[The 747]

Exactly this - I'm also vaccinated but can see clearly that the 'vax' does indeed have side effects for a lot of people and doesn't work as well as it's supposed to.. Requires boosters every 6 months which I'm not sure many people signed up for - definitely not worthy of a mandate and removing good people from society for having valid concerns.

Most anti vaxxers are vaccinated. Either grifting or getting off on spreading bullshit.

 

[kaiserchief13]

Yes and no
Both matter
When Germany has 90% unvaxxed clogging its hospitals a better vax isnt going to help

Isn't it up to the governments to build infrastructure that can support its citizens, part of which are people who don't want the jab?

Victoria for example, a better leader than Andrews could have found out if Victorian people actually would willingly take the jab and prepare a plan on medical infrastructure based on that 18 months ago

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

waning efficacy
and % of unvaxxed clogging hospitals says yes

That's the vaccines fault it doesn't work that well. Clogging hospitals - so now you are going to decide who can and can't use hospitals. I'm pretty sure they all pay taxes.. Should I complain when smokers end up there because they shouldn't have smoked or people with heart disease for living a unhealthy lifestyle?

If our hospitals cannot deal with current case numbers at 90+% vaxxed then we have a real problem and it starts with how the government has managed the healthcare system. Why isn't that being discussed? What is the current treatment protocol for patients anyway?

 

[The Cryptkeeper]

Wheckjob quits due to being a whackjob.

Later Liam. w***er.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Most anti vaxxers are vaccinated. Either grifting or getting off on spreading bullshit.

No we just value people's rights to decide what gets injected into them, especially when there are valid safety concerns and everyone is in a different situation health wise. Not a difficult concept and think history will side with us.