Carlton selections round 18-22

[Bombermania]

Interesting overview of Carlton's team.

while we have been having a joke at Carlton's expense when we seriously look at the OP and think about what Libba is saying, I'm inclinde to think that Carlton was the second worst side in the comp and this ting about manning up gee last year Essendon made not manning up an art form and this thing about taking players off for a rest or dropping players for not being 10% fit when the side has no chance of making the finals.

All this talk about tanking helped Carlton obtain Judd, really Chris Judd was courted by several clubs and he chose Carlton, I suspect he went to Carlton with the offer of being captain but that is another story.

As I wrote earlier, Carlton is an easy target but just like any club that is struggling and going no-where can we really say Carlton have done anything differently than happen to at least one club every year.

Speaking from an Essendon preceptive when you are a successful club with a proud history you do not want to be at the bottom of the ladder, yes the system is rubbish but that is the system that Carlton is operating under.

I recall at the time of the Melbourne v Carlton game everyone here at least was joking that both sides were playing to lose, one other thing Carlton would never have tanked against Essendon afterall the hatred both sides have for the other drives both to want nothing more than to beat the other.

Young sides tend to drop away has the season comes to a finish.

 

[Effes]

I dont need facts or figures or bold statements. Whether the team named was playing to win or not is beside the point.

I havent a doubt in my mind that from a coaching and management perspective that there was no emphasis on winning. I doubt even any carlton supporter could argue that.

But is that wrong??? If the rules are there then they are just playing by the rules. There were a few dubious selections, but Kangaroos did no different in 06 by forcing their stars into early pre-season.

There's no doubt key players were rested at key moments of the game. I doubt there is even a debate as to whether Ratten was experimenting with players in a way that would adversely affect their chances of winning.


Who cares???? What carlton did will give them long term success worth more than flying the flag in a few dead rubbers. Carlton's loss to Collingwood when they took off Fevola probably ensured we would make the top 8, we were terribly out of form. So thanks for that.


I cant see why people are labelling carlton cheats. The AFL has the system in place. Whether Carlton named their full team or a team of no hopers...they would not have won those games. The incentive just wasnt there.


Football is very mental as well. Carlton wouldve had at the back of their mind a priority pick was up for grabs. Whilst its opposition was still playing win at all costs. That alone is enough to give a 100% advantage to the opposition.

Carlton could've had West Coasts elite midfield with cousins, kerr, embley, judd and they still wouldnt have won. Again, simply no incentive.

Who's fault??? The Afl's...not carltons.

Nice post Dave! Some common sense; and to the Collingwood poster on the previous page who used common sense

 

[Khan]

Collingwood tanked. Hawthorn tanked. Fremantle tanked. Richmond tanked. Kangaroos tanked. End of story. Why don't you say those teams are a blight on our game?

How about you offer some proof that you are demanding from the other posters. When did Richmond tank ? If you are relating to what TW said last year. Did you hear it ? I did and it wasn't said in jest. Did you watch the game ? No well once more during the season the Tigers were in a position to win at 3/4 time then we lost. No different than about 4 other times during the year. Am I proud of it no, but them the breaks.

Khan

 

[Thrawn]

Can we prove it – NO but they did.

So they tanked because you said so?

 

[Effes]

And your club tanked in 2008.

You won't find me disagreeing with you!

I'm just amazed that people can say this is a problem which only emerged last year; they are burying their heads in the sand deliberately so that they can have a crack at Carlton.

 

[mick_foley]

Why aren't you labelling other clubs as cheating tankers/

Get it through your head; it isn't hard to comprehend. Clubs besides Carlton have also tanked

I know you don't want to believe that (like lots of others out there) but they are the facts.

I don't understand the bitterness.

Surely you should be outraged at the other clubs who have tanked? Why aren't you?

Because they haven’t benefited as greatly as your club has, when they lose 9 games in a row to gain the number 1 player in the draft and have this (so called) honour 3 or 4 year in a row – it becomes a ****ing disgrace to the integrity of the league.

 

[_RT_]

I would like to pose a situation to the Carlton supporters defending their club.

If the same information was to come out that another club had done similar things, i.e. sent players for surgery, rested players with niggles/sickness or just picked kids to 'give them game time' lost 11 straight games and at the end of the season that club recieved picks 1 & 3. Would you accuse that team of tanking or would you defend what they have done as well.

Having said that I would just like to clarify that IMO Carlton did not tank (although it is fun winding their supporters up by saying they did), they just weren't good enough. What Carlton did do last year and other teams have done in the past and will do in the future is play within the rules of the competition.

If people are going to carry on about tanking then the following teams should all be investigated as each has recieved priority picks at some time in the past 10 years: Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond, St. Kilda, Essendon, Bulldogs, Melbourne, Fremantle & Brisbane.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

playing kids and out of form hacks is just the way to lose whilst having the perfect cover.

Takes away from the fact that we dropped players like Saddington and Wiggins who were not in form. We played some kids for sure, every one of those kids would be in our round 1 side if fit, aside from Austin who got one game. We could easily argue that those players gained a heap of confidence from that game time that has given us more depth in 2008.

 

[Bombermania]

In round 22 last year did Geelong tank against Port!

 

[bourbons]

Any Carlton supproter who honestly believes they didn't tank last year is kidding themselves.

Any footy supporter who honestly believes Carlton are the first and only team to do this is kidding themselves.

 

[Forget the Stats]

One thing I do understand them doing is getting players operations done early when the season is over for them realistically. That way players like Fevola get a better go at a full preseason and a fresh start next year. If Eagles were not in the finals we would have got Judd in for the operation sometime during the season for the above reason too.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

I dont need facts or figures or bold statements. Whether the team named was playing to win or not is beside the point.

I havent a doubt in my mind that from a coaching and management perspective that there was no emphasis on winning. I doubt even any carlton supporter could argue that.

But is that wrong??? If the rules are there then they are just playing by the rules. There were a few dubious selections, but Kangaroos did no different in 06 by forcing their stars into early pre-season.

There's no doubt key players were rested at key moments of the game. I doubt there is even a debate as to whether Ratten was experimenting with players in a way that would adversely affect their chances of winning.


Who cares???? What carlton did will give them long term success worth more than flying the flag in a few dead rubbers. Carlton's loss to Collingwood when they took off Fevola probably ensured we would make the top 8, we were terribly out of form. So thanks for that.


I cant see why people are labelling carlton cheats. The AFL has the system in place. Whether Carlton named their full team or a team of no hopers...they would not have won those games. The incentive just wasnt there.


Football is very mental as well. Carlton wouldve had at the back of their mind a priority pick was up for grabs. Whilst its opposition was still playing win at all costs. That alone is enough to give a 100% advantage to the opposition.

Carlton could've had West Coasts elite midfield with cousins, kerr, embley, judd and they still wouldnt have won. Again, simply no incentive.

Who's fault??? The Afl's...not carltons.

Exactly. Why Carlton supporters get their knickers in a knot over this is mystifying. They don't have to defend their club when they've done nothing wrong.

Everyone knows Carlton tanked, just accept it and move on.

Carlton tanked, they played within the rules, they've done nothing illegal ... just say "yes, we tanked", and get on with 2008 FFS!!!!

 

[MarkT]

Was this or was this not one of Libba's contentions. You resort to one line rebuttals but enter into no debate.

Now that is lame.

Was this or was this not one of Libba's contentions. You resort to one line rebuttals but enter into no debate.

Now that is lame.

Yes it was ONE of Libba’s claims among others and among the many relevant issues and in any event he provided an example of a player who was put out to pasture. Now take a look at your round 22 side. As I keep saying though, it is never about one specific factor or incidence.

I don’t care how lame you think my post was it was meant to a one line response to a lame attempt at futility.

 

[Forzaport]

the tanking issue goes well beyond carlton.

All you need to do is look at the ladder after 22 rounds for the past few years and you will see a clear gap between teams earning a priority pick and teams that don't.

The only exception was melbourne last year. They should've planned for round 22 against carlton...

As for Carlton selections between round 18-22
-we don't know the extent of the injury of some players, despite what dribble comes out of the club. e.g. if it was an important game maybe fev would've been named
-it's also about the coaching and the position the players are in
-carlton fielded one of its youngest ever squads in round 22 (by choice, irrespective of injured players)

Either way carlton supporters can't really win,
If carlton is tanking - that's just disgraceful
If carlton isn't tanking - they're just really really shit

 

[bourbons]

The famous blues fan comeback. "Oh but everyone does it" You blatently cheat.

Lol, don't argue the point whatever you do.

If we blatently cheat, so have numerous other teams in past years. I look forward to your (and others) vitriol-laced rants on those clubs too (but somehow, I'm not holding my breath )

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I would like to pose a situation to the Carlton supporters defending their club.

If the same information was to come out that another club had done similar things, i.e. sent players for surgery, rested players with niggles/sickness or just picked kids to 'give them game time' lost 11 straight games and at the end of the season that club recieved picks 1 & 3. Would you accuse that team of tanking or would you defend what they have done as well.

Having said that I would just like to clarify that IMO Carlton did not tank (although it is fun winding their supporters up by saying they did), they just weren't good enough. What Carlton did do last year and other teams have done in the past and will do in the future is play within the rules of the competition.

If people are going to carry on about tanking then the following teams should all be investigated as each has recieved priority picks at some time in the past 10 years: Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond, St. Kilda, Essendon, Bulldogs, Melbourne, Fremantle & Brisbane.

Personally I don't recall ever accusing any club of tanking for draft picks despite knowing about season ending surgeries and so forth. I have had queries for sure but nothing so vehement as what Carlton has been faced with. I wanted to avoid the spoon in 2005 and was miffed that the Pies and Hawks did enough to keep off the bottom but avoid the spoon so I can understand the sentiment. I had no proof though so you just accept it and move on. It was more about getting the spoon for me rather than them getting the draft picks. I would have traded it for sure.

I also had a query about Essendon losing the last game to the Tigers in round 22, 2001 and then caning them the next week. A win to the Bombers in round 22 would have given Carlton a top 4 spot and we were more of a threat to them than the Tigers I believe.

 

[Bombermania]

the tanking issue goes well beyond carlton.

Either way carlton supporters can't really win,
If carlton is tanking - that's just disgraceful
If carlton isn't tanking - they're just really really shit

I take the bolded option

 

[Thrawn]

If the same information was to come out that another club had done similar things, i.e. sent players for surgery, rested players with niggles/sickness or just picked kids to 'give them game time' lost 11 straight games and at the end of the season that club recieved picks 1 & 3. Would you accuse that team of tanking or would you defend what they have done as well.

I would not accuse them of tanking, because I think it's a whole load of bullshit anyway. As for defending them, well... it wouldn't really involve me, they would have their own to defend themselves quite adequately. I really wouldn't interfere but if I was asked for my opinion, I would. I have my own team to worry about first and foremost.

If people are going to carry on about tanking then the following teams should all be investigated as each has recieved priority picks at some time in the past 10 years: Carlton, Collingwood, Hawthorn, Richmond, St. Kilda, Essendon, Bulldogs, Melbourne, Fremantle & Brisbane.

It would be unfair to target a single club in all of this, so yeah, I agree.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Demetriou has invited Libba to come in and make a specific allegation i.e details not feelings and has stated that Carlton have contacted him and said they will make themselves, any staff member, any document available and open their doors to any investigation.

Carlton on the front foot, over to you Libba.

He also pointed out the difference between tanking (losing on purpose) and list management (trying young players).

 

[SirJimi05]

What IS being done? Specify.

ODN you're a smart man so i really don't think i need to answer that one.

I will ask you a question. Do you truly believe that the match/selection commitee and the match day coaches did everything absolutely possible to win every game Carlton played in this season?

ODN you have to understand i do not believe that Carlton did anything that any other team wouldn't do in the same position but the rules should not allow for this to happen.

 

[_RT_]

Personally I don't recall ever accusing any club of tanking for draft picks despite knowing about season ending surgeries and so forth. I have had queries for sure but nothing so vehement as what Carlton has been faced with. I wanted to avoid the spoon in 2005 and was miffed that the Pies and Hawks did enough to keep off the bottom but avoid the spoon so I can understand the sentiment. I had no proof though so you just accept it and move on. It was more about getting the spoon for me rather than them getting the draft picks. I would have traded it for sure.

I also had a query about Essendon losing the last game to the Tigers in round 22, 2001 and then caning them the next week. A win to the Bombers in round 22 would have given Carlton a top 4 spot and we were more of a threat to them than the Tigers I believe.

I would not accuse them of tanking, because I think it's a whole load of bullshit anyway. As for defending them, well... it wouldn't really involve me, they would have their own to defend themselves quite adequately. I really wouldn't interfere but if I was asked for my opinion, I would. I have my own team to worry about first and foremost.

It would be unfair to target a single club in all of this, so yeah, I agree.

I was not aiming that at either of you, more towards other Carlton fans who say that their team has never tanked but have no problem accusing other teams of doing the same.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I was not aiming that at either of you, more towards other Carlton fans who say that their team has never tanked but have no problem accusing other teams of doing the same.

No problem. Hypocrites abound around every club. They also make life harder for those that refrain.

 

[SirJimi05]

LOL @ one liners and lack of addressing the points.



So you know 45 Carlton supporters personally, and know enough of their opinions on the issue to conclude them... every single one? And not one of them think that we didn't tank?

Everyone of them that i have spoken to about this (it was spoken about a hell of alot towards the end of last season) have agreed that the system is flawed and that until something is done about it Carlton are well entitled to shut up shop and prepare for next season. I agree with them entirely.

BTW - i canhged the figure at my club to 10 after doing a count in my head.

Cheers.

 

[Thrawn]

I was not aiming that at either of you, more towards other Carlton fans who say that their team has never tanked but have no problem accusing other teams of doing the same.

Yeah, I understand that. Personally, I can't believe some supporters would condone/accept/admit to tanking... but that's their view, and fair enough. The thoughts on this issue is quite split - I've even had a few run-ins with our very own.

 

[hong_kong_bond]

Demetriou has invited Libba to come in and make a specific allegation i.e details not feelings and has stated that Carlton have contacted him and said they will make themselves, any staff member, any document available and open their doors to any investigation.

Carlton on the front foot, over to you Libba.

He also pointed out the difference between tanking (losing on purpose) and list management (trying young players).

nothing will come of this - guarantee that Libba won't take it any further....you can't attempt to hang a club out to dry (no matter how bitter and twisted you are after you got the arse for poor performance as an Assistant Coach) - you'd just look (even more) like a fool.

"It's a feeling I had" = "It's the vibe, man"

Libba = Denis Denuto