Carlton selections round 18-22

[Alex99]

None of this tanking issue would be a problem if the AFL looked at the situation and stopped rewarding mediocrity. That’s all the priority player system is, rewarding mediocrity.

If a system was in place where clubs that finished down the bottom knew they had to work hard to get better they would be forced to develop younger player on there list rather than just play badly (not going to use the word tank) and be rewarded for there ineptness.

Carlton can only follow the situation in front of them – to me it’s the AFL that is to blame. Everyone does it but Carlton is just in the hot seat at the moment because they have gained the most.

Remove the PP system and the allure or perception surround tanking will also disappear.

 

[Corpuscles]

LOL @ Carlton supporters trying to cover their clubs arse

ROFPMLOL

"We don't cheat & NEVER have!!! You all know it makes sense" ODN (pictured below)

Good Onya Effes.... the only sensible thing to do!!!!... when your list looks like that shown the OP

Let's hope the AFL do not investigate and punish them or any of the other teams who tanked or even those who deliberately lose NAB cup games!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ODN you're a smart man so i really don't think i need to answer that one.

But I would like you to .... please.

I will ask you a question. Do you truly believe that the match/selection commitee and the match day coaches did everything absolutely possible to win every game Carlton played in this season?

Well let's see, Libba did not say anything about hearing any deliberate poor strategies in the coaching box and if we were doing something on match day, he should have.

I understand that Carlton actually have a recording of the coaches box for the entire Port match, another game we were accused of tanking, and will make it available. That should be interesting listening.

 

[Blues_Man]

Yes it was ONE of Libba’s claims among others and among the many relevant issues and in any event he provided an example of a player who was put out to pasture. Now take a look at your round 22 side. As I keep saying though, it is never about one specific factor or incidence.

I don’t care how lame you think my post was it was meant to a one line response to a lame attempt at futility.

You sound like Libba ..you and him both have a "feeling" nothing tangible or intelligent ..just a vibe .

 

[Bluebear]

Ask yourself a hypothetical:

If the AFL drops the Priority pick and the bottom 8 go into a lottery system for picks, will clubs behaviour change?

Nope.

Before the draft clubs who weren't going to make the finals put sore players out and brought kids in........it happened then, and will happen in the future, regardless of the media and hence public perception of WHY it is done.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

ROFPMLOL

"We don't cheat & NEVER have!!! You all know it makes sense" ODN (pictured below)

Good Onya Effes.... the only sensible thing to do!!!!... when your list looks like that shown the OP

Let's hope the AFL do not investigate and punish them or any of the other teams who tanked or even those who deliberately lose NAB cup games!

That's your argument? How embarrassing for you.

 

[Mad Dog]

topic please - not personal abuse

 

[super_phaser]

Collingwood tanked. Hawthorn tanked. Fremantle tanked. Richmond tanked. Kangaroos tanked. End of story. Why don't you say those teams are a blight on our game?

Because their presidents arent criminals that ripped off hard working Aussies to the tune of tens of millions of dollars

Tanking is only one of the many problems down at Carlton

 

[Omegaman]

Replying with graphics, or head in the sand jibes says more about your capacity to debate than about me. These are the facts of our selections.

Libba has named selections, tanking jokes, failure to cover a loose man in defence and dubious injuries as issues. Those injuries are able to be proven, the selections are before you, loose men in defence have been around since the year dot. Carlton would much rather see what their players can do rather than responding to a loose man negatively. How many times does Joel Bowden play loose in defence? It happens. He might stop us scoring a bit but his hurt factor in defence is not as much as streaming into the forward 50. Who knows what was actually said with the 'tanks very much' jibe? The media and supporters were accusing us of tanking long before the last couple of games. Is it inconceivable that someone in the coaching box was making light of those accusations, if in fact it was actually said?

Libba can not confirm it, never heard it, never heard a strange instruction from the coach, is not a medical person to be able to judge if Thornton needed surgery or not. In the end, we could have expected that someone in the coaches box could lay this to rest for good as they would know for sure if we were tanking. Libba was in the coaches box and makes a statement based on a 'feeling'. If anything, Libba's thin premise actually helps us as it seems this is all that is available. Opposition supporters sweating on an 'I told you so' would have been hoping a coach would be able to give specific examples of tanking instructions, talk of losing etc. It never came.

Based on the games I watched, I felt the Blues were capable of picking up one or two wins before the end of the season- but we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. But to clarify the tanking, I have gravitated towards "blame the system".

Not so much debating as idly musing:
Regardless of who is picked, the key questions imo are:

• How many of the players were aware winning the game would not be in the clubs best long term interests viz the draft?
• Would this doubt, subconciously or otherwise have influenced the way they approached the games?

IIRC, tanking for picks only entered the popular footy consciousness early this decade, now suspicions are cast everywhere (take BF as a microcosm). You don't need an internal directive when the wider world is pointing to it like its conventional wisdom. With that in mind, my answer to both questions is "how could it not?", especially for a club with a string of atrocious seasons such as Carlton have endured (not to say it is exclusive to them).

But if Roos can be investigated because of what an AFL official overheard, then the testimony of what a club insider heard and saw over the course- however questionable- will surely warrant the same treatment. Similarly, I doubt it will yield much (unless they subpeona all club records and find a board memo saying "LOSE EVERYTHING OR ELSE", which I kinda doubt) and Libba will say goodbye to any future in football he might have had. No one likes a squealer, especially one that goes all "Fatal Attraction" when things don't go his way.

 

[super_phaser]

That's your argument? How embarrassing for you.

There is no need for rgument

Why?

Because when it comes to Carlton, it is fact - they are tankers

Blues fans know it. You are just doing your duty by defending the team you support.

 

[Thrawn]

ROFPMLOL

"We don't cheat & NEVER have!!! You all know it makes sense" ODN (pictured below)

Where's my pic?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Yes it was ONE of Libba’s claims among others and among the many relevant issues and in any event he provided an example of a player who was put out to pasture. Now take a look at your round 22 side. As I keep saying though, it is never about one specific factor or incidence.

I don’t care how lame you think my post was it was meant to a one line response to a lame attempt at futility.

I took a look at the round 22 side. I posted it in the OP and commented on ins and outs. Can you expand further on that side, that is what the OP asked for?

He did provide an example on a player put out to pasture. He had surgery and didn't get back on track until Christmas due to a slower recovery. We also played Walker because the specialist said he did not need surgery, he hurt himself again ... and now again. But no, we rest people who don't need to be rested.

 

[hong_kong_bond]

There is no need for rgument

Why?

Because when it comes to Carlton, it is fact - they are tankers

Blues fans know it. You are just doing your duty by defending the team you support.

please provide said facts

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

There is no need for rgument

Why?

Because when it comes to Carlton, it is fact - they are tankers

Blues fans know it. You are just doing your duty by defending the team you support.

There is no need for argument because you do not have one. I am calling you out. You believe so strongly in what you are saying, surely you can back it up and argue it. It really is looking fairly soft at the moment.

Won't somebody put their nuts on the line ... anyone .... Bueller?

 

[Alex99]

Stupidity, well we all know that. But you would be basing some of your unfounded allegations on what Libba said last night and I used one of his examples for your team in last years final. So if you go by the master coach and tactical guru Libba then you tanked???

But hey because it doesnt sit well with you it crap - basically like everything you have posted about the tanking issue.

What did the Adelaide Football Club have by allegedly tanking that game?

We all know the benefit Carlton received in allegedly losing the last half a dozen games.

As you said most clubs have tanked so the issue is not losing the game – the issue is what you have received in return for losing.

 

[Bluebear]

Can anyone provide me with an explanation to the following:

After our flogging by the Lions, which rsulted in Pagan's departure, Fevola had an MRI scan on his (?)right quad. Initial prognosis was a 4 week injury.

IF the mantra of the club for those last 6 games was to lose, can anyone explain why you wouldn't take this free pass to remove the one player out on the ground that could actually win a gamer off his own boot (as he very nearly did vs Saints the week after)?

Please, explain it to me.........

 

[Spartan]

This has been an interesting read.

The Carlton fans on here claim that they didn't tank. They quickly point the finger at North Melbourne and Collingwood in the past and say that they didn't do anything that other teams have done in the past. Unfortunately that doesn't make it right. North Melbourne may well have tanked in 2006, however its a little more clear that Carlton tanked in 2007.

To determine first if Carlton tanked we need to identify what constitutes tanking. You could argue that tanking is going into a game without your best chance of winning, be it from player selections, coaching strategy, game plans, etc. A number of teams at the end of the season with no chance of making the finals will rest key players and blood some youngsters.

If the winner (as opposed to the loser) of the Carlton vs Melbourne game got the priority pick, do you think the game would have been played differently by Carlton? Wouldn't different players have been selected? Would Travis Johnstone have been allowed to run buck wild carving up the Blues? Just quickly on that, Scotland is a very good player, however in terms of foot skills, Johnstone works him like a cheap hooker at a $2 brothel. Johnstone was very damaging, if the Blues wanted to experiment and play Scotland as a loose man in defence why didn't they just shift someone else onto Johnstone and have a less damaging Melbourne player as a loose man? I'm no footy coach but that seems like common sense to me.

There was a comment by Blues fan made that if was unfair to say Whitnall kicked 3 behinds on purpose because he was unfit and couldnt even kick it 40m or something along those lines. Why then was he selected? Experience? Please. If he was that out of form then they would have been better off blooding yet another youngster.

For the record I don't think (well hope anyway) that any player tanked. I think when you get onto the field as a player you play to win and as someone quite correctly pointed out a number of them were playing for their careers.

However lets look at things logically.

Question: As a club, would it have been in Carlton's best interests to lose the last couple of games?
Answer: Yes.

Question: As a club would you do whats in your best interests?
Answer: Yes.

Even if it wasn't blatantly said to the players or even Ratten for that matter, lets be honest. There would have been a culture at the club during the last few weeks of season 2007 that its 'ok to lose'. I would wager a fair amount of money that Ratten was specifically told that winning or losing the games would not affect his chances. "Its not whether you win or lose, its how you play the game" would have been the strong message, with the words 'lose' being stressed a little harder than the rest of the statement.

Blues fans ask yourself this. That last game, if the winner got the draft picks, would you have played differently and wanted to win? Answer is yes. If you could have made the finals would you have played differently? Yes again. Due to the circumstances you were faced with you made a decision.

I believe Carlton tanked. I don't think they have specifically done anything wrong. What?! Spartan are you crazy?! Well no. Its the system that led to this. In the rules of the game Carlton did nothing wrong. Even if they performed unnecessary surgey on their players (not claiming that they did or didn't) there is no law to say that they couldn't. They were saving themselves for 2008. They wanted to blood their rookies. Again nothing wrong with that. Sure morally it rubs some people the wrong way, however the fact of the matter is unless someone comes out and says "person x at the blues told us to lose" there will never be any 'proof' that Carlton tanked and lets face it thats never going to happen.

I think the AFL needs to look at the system and fix it fast or this is just going to keep happening.

Alot of anti-Carlton fans have been posting rubbish on here which makes it easier for the Blues fans to point out that the people claiming Carlton tanked are mindless imbeciles that just say "uhhhh you tanked cause i said so" and so on. There have been one or two quality posts similiar to my line of thought that have been glossed over or ignored either intentionally or cause there were bigger fish to fry.

In summary, yes Carlton tanked, as teams in the past have also tanked. They are more in scrutiny because they got a priority pick out of it and eventually led to Chris Judd joining the Blues (no hard feelings on that by the way, hope Juddy rips it up). However they did it because that was best for their club. If we should be angry at anyone it should be at the AFL for having a system that while correctly helps those teams that struggle also encourage teams to 'lose' in order to 'win'.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

But if Roos can be investigated because of what an AFL official overheard, then the testimony of what a club insider heard and saw over the course- however questionable- will surely warrant the same treatment. Similarly, I doubt it will yield much (unless they subpeona all club records and find a board memo saying "LOSE EVERYTHING OR ELSE", which I kinda doubt) and Libba will say goodbye to any future in football he might have had. No one likes a squealer, especially one that goes all "Fatal Attraction" when things don't go his way.

Happy for an investigation. It can only help us because everyone assumes the worst anyway. Carlton have already said they welcome an investigator and will make everything and everyone available. The AFL have called on Libba to make a specific allegation. 'It was never said but I had a feeling' is not really an allegation. We can produce the medical reports for Thornton though as he was specifically named.

 

[SirJimi05]

But I would like you to .... please.

Well let's see, Libba did not say anything about hearing any deliberate poor strategies in the coaching box and if we were doing something on match day, he should have.

I understand that Carlton actually have a recording of the coaches box for the entire Port match, another game we were accused of tanking, and will make it available. That should be interesting listening.

Some examples would be:

• Playing players out of position
• Not playing players with very minor injuries who would normally play.
• Bringing forward operations which would normally be done post season.
• Resting players in order to play kids.
• Bringing off key players during key moments of games.
• Not addressing matchups or reacting with urgency in the box.
• basically not be as committed in coaching on game day.

Just on another comment you made about the Essendon vs Richmond game in round 22, 2001. I was at that game and the final the next week and Richmond were red hot in the first game. They came out firing and played that game as if it was their final. Essendon lifted about 20% in intensity for the final which is what should be expected so i don't feel it was out of the ordinary. Richmond were to blame as they came out very flat in the final. It was like they had their victory the week prior and had no more to give.

 

[cougar000]

I bet if you run a survey to all Carlton supporters about if they wanted to win that last game the greater number will be NO even Kouta said it himself, of course they will say they never tanked or shit will hit the fan, it is just so obvious Carlton did not want to win there is no argument!

 

[Nikita Blue]

Every single Carlton supporter i know acknowledges/believes that Carlton shut up shop and played for 2008. Why do all the Carlton supporters on BF try defend this?

The system is flawed and Carlton are using it to their advantage. Why hide from it?

Maybe you need to meet more Carlton supporters. I don't believe they tanked - unfortunately having watched them play over the last five years or so they were just crap.

 

[mjonc]

1. You lost your last 9 games consecuitively

2. You made some dubious selections towards the end

3. Your own Assistant Coach stated publicly that Carlton tanked.

All the proof I need.

How could any dury deny a guilty a plea with those facts

PS: We lost 11 in a row

 

[wotdoiput]

Not sure why people are going on about the Blues tanking. I ean its not like they were a great team or anything. You dont collect so many number 1 picks if your a good team.

Their start to the season was good but then they lost their best midfielder in Stevens. Suddenly guys like Gibbs and Murphy are the headof the midfield brigade when they are still too young to do so. Fev was playing much of the season. While Whitnall was hopeless for most of last year he was a pretty important part of their team imo.

Whats with having a go at clubs (not just Carlton) for losing games where they were leading and were in winning postions? Should we crucify all clubs that have lost a game they should of won in the history of VFL/AFL football??

The only things that raised my eyebrows where Kouta's comments last year and Fev being benched against the Pies. But with Fev being injured that may have been fair enough.

If the AFL took away the prizes for losing then no one would talk about tanking imo.

Remember Carlton have not been good in a long time.

 

[Carnthe]

Travis Johnstone[/SIZE]

42 disps (35 kicks 7 hballs), 9 marks and a goal in Rd 22 31-pt win over Carlton at the MCG (2 Sep 2007)

i think its fair to say that if a bloke's had 35 kicks against you, you would generally look at matching him up. if someone's had the time and space to kick the footy 35 times in a game that would suggest that not alot of pressure is being put on him. and for all his shortfalls travis johnstone is a beautiful kick of the footy.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Some examples would be:

• Playing players out of position

• 
  Which players, which positions?
  
  

  [*]Not playing players with very minor injuries who would normally play.

  Which ones? We can discuss Thornton and Fevola if you like or we can discuss how we continued to play Walker and made it worse. Maybe you have news on hammy strains or sickness?
  
  

  [*]Bringing forward operations which would normally be done post season.

  See above
  
  

  [*]Resting players in order to play kids.

  Happens every year. It is called list management. It just so happens that we can demonstrate that every single one of those kids is amongst our best 22 as we speak, except for one of them.
  
  

  [*]Bringing off key players during key moments of games.

  Read Fevola coming off briefly to be checked during the Collingwood game or midfield rotations. Fev was injured btw.
  
  

  [*]Not addressing matchups or reacting with urgency in the box.

  Read, continued the loose man in defence shootout with Travis Johnstone getting 42 possessions and his opposite Heath Scotland getting 41 possessions.
  
  

  [*]basically not be as committed in coaching on game day.

?????????????

Just on another comment you made about the Essendon vs Richmond game in round 22, 2001. I was at that game and the final the next week and Richmond were red hot in the first game. They came out firing and played that game as if it was their final. Essendon lifted about 20% in intensity for the final which is what should be expected so i don't feel it was out of the ordinary. Richmond were to blame as they came out very flat in the final. It was like they had their victory the week prior and had no more to give.

I was just miffed as it cost Carlton big time.