Carlton selections round 18-22

[wotdoiput]

No resistance? So our players stood there and did not attempt to stop them? Did you see Hawthorn lead 74-4 in our NAB Cup game this year? Were we tanking then too?

As for this myth that the Dees side was weaker, let's take a look:

Cain Ackland
Mark Austin
Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Paul Bower
Andrew Carrazzo
Bryce Gibbs
Shaun Grigg
Shaun Hampson
Ryan Houlihan
Ryan Jackson
Michael Jamison
Josh Kennedy
Marc Murphy
Setanta OhAilpin
Jordan Russell
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker
Lance Whitnall


Matthew Bate
Clint Bizzell
Jace Bode
Nathan Brown
Cameron Bruce
Nathan Carroll
Lynden Dunn
Ryan Ferguson
Brad Green
Mark Jamar
Chris Johnson
Paul Johnson
Travis Johnstone
Nathan Jones
James McDonald
Brock McLean
Brad Miller
Michael Newton
Byron Pickett
Russell Robertson
Daniel Ward
Jeff White

Melbourne had a lot lot better team than Carlton in ROund 22. Melbournes problem was the amount of injuries they had at the start of the year. The put their best team on the field and they would still be pretty good I reckon.

Hampson will be a damn good player imo. Not sure about Grigg havent seen much of him.

 

[MadDawg]

Amazing, Carlton fans dont think their team tanked last year

 

[Thrawn]

Amazing, Carlton fans dont think their team tanked last year

Yes! Amazing I think that all this tanking talk, for any team, is a load of garbage.

 

[RECORDS!]

You aren't aware of too many facts are you?

Pagan was sacked after round 16; if we wanted to tank EVEN MORE we would have left Denis in then wouldn't we? Why would we appoint Ratten who may improve the team's performance when we simply could have let Denis continue coaching and suffer massive defeats

Other clubs made dubious selections before the end of the season; in particular Collingwood in 2005, Kangaroos in 2006. Why aren't you questioning them? You are changing the facts to suit your argument but any sensible person can see you have stuffed up a number of the facts

You are kidding aren't you? They sacked Dennis because he would continue to at least try and win. They would have told Ratten that if he didn't win another game the job was his. When Dennis was sacked you had some very winnable games coming up towards the end of the season.

Look, I hate Carlton, but I don't blame them for this, as many teams have done the same.

It is the fault of VLAD and his cronies. Their arrogance and inability to recognise their own mistakes are the problem here - Fancy having the front to tell the football public that they were delusional about tanking only 6 months ago.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Amazing, Carlton fans dont think their team tanked last year

I am merely saying we managed our list. We got some confidence into some youngsters and it worked. We sent players for surgery and it was the right move, especially with Thornton and Fevola. We have shown the Johnstone vs Scotland stats for round 22, we have shown who came in the sides and out, we have compared the Dees side in round 22 to the Carlton side in round 22. We have simply refuted things as they come up. Now give us something we can't refute and we will acknowledge it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

You are kidding aren't you? They sacked Dennis because he would continue to at least try and win. They would have told Ratten that if he didn't win another game the job was his. When Dennis was sacked you had some very winnable games coming up towards the end of the season.

Oh god. They sacked Pagan because the players were not responding to him and we had been flogged in 4 or our past 5 outings by over 10 goals AND the last by 117 points. You say we sacked him because he was trying to win? Hysterical.

 

[Embers]

Amazing, Carlton fans dont think their team tanked last year

They did 6 months ago... Which is what makes threads like this so sad

 

[MadDawg]

Your assistant coach of last year admitted to tanking and there are still arguments.

Lets just say I wouldnt be too worried if a player like Heath Scotland got 40 possesions but one of the last players in the league I would want to get 40 possesions on my team would be Travis Johnstone and he is always the player who gets a tag so to stop that.

 

[RECORDS!]

Oh god. They sacked Pagan because the players were not responding to him and we had been flogged in 4 or our past 5 outings by over 10 goals AND the last by 117 points. You say we sacked him because he was trying to win? Hysterical.

Can you please tell me who you played in those previous 5 outings as opposed to the upcoming 6 games?

 

[Thrawn]

Your assistant coach of last year admitted to tanking and there are still arguments.

This has been addressed numerous times.

Nothing came from the interview, nothing substantial at all. He had no evidence, and his entire statement was based on a gut feeling. A gut feeling. That's it. After being sacked too.

 

[mjonc]

You are kidding aren't you? They sacked Dennis because he would continue to at least try and win. They would have told Ratten that if he didn't win another game the job was his. When Dennis was sacked you had some very winnable games coming up towards the end of the season.

We sacked Denis because he had produced the worst set of results on field you could imagine starting with the Hawthorn game. He had lost the players and he was never going to win a game as coach of Carlton again.

You're just like Libba, speculation is all you have.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Can you please tell me who you played in those previous 5 outings as opposed to the upcoming 6 games?

Rounds 12-16 Hawthorn, Fremantle, Melbourne (not a flogging), Sydney and Brisbane.

Got flogged by two finalists and two non-finalists. Relatively close loss to Melbourne.

Rounds 17-22 St Kilda, Collingwood, Port, Essendon, Kangaroos, Melbourne.

Lost to 3 finalists and 3 non-finalists. The 3 finalists all made at least a prelim.

Does somebody want to outline exactly how our last 6 games under Ratten were considered more winnable than the previous 5 under Pagan?

 

[hong_kong_bond]

Your assistant coach of last year admitted to tanking and there are still arguments.

Lets just say I wouldnt be too worried if a player like Heath Scotland got 40 possesions but one of the last players in the league I would want to get 40 possesions on my team would be Travis Johnstone and he is always the player who gets a tag so to stop that.

you mean the same Travis Johnstone who racked up 15 clangers (AFL league record in 2007) that night...

 

[skipper kelly]

Geez TODN. It was in Carltons best interest not to win. They gained nothing from winning. The system was in place and they used it. Everyone knows it. Even Carlton people have joked about it.

WGAF if it can be proved in a court of law, beyond reasonable doubt.

Roos did not want to win the 1st NAB cup game. Did he send his players out with instructions to lose. Of course not. He sent them out with a practice match mentality.

Did Ratten and Carlton want the priority pick. Of course they did. When their season proper was shot did Ratten send his players out with instructions to lose. Of course not. He sent them out with basically a rebuilding for the future attitude, giving blokes a chance to have a run and get a better fell for the game at the highest level.

I personally dont see any lack of integrity with Carlton. They did what they have to do with the rules provided to them.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Geez TODN. It was in Carltons best interest not to win. They gained nothing from winning. The system was in place and they used it. Everyone knows it. Even Carlton people have joked about it.

Not the point at all. What Libba has actually said can be refuted with ease. I have no doubt we managed our list. We do so every year when we are out of contention and sometimes it reaps rewards in terms of player development. The Thornton injury, the kids coming in ... who gives two hoots Libba. He is showing why he was never in the running to coach an AFL team, because he lacks vision and common sense.

List development does not equate to tanking.

 

[Embers]

Not the point at all. What Libba has actually said can be refuted with ease. I have no doubt we managed our list. We do so every year when we are out of contention and sometimes it reaps rewards in terms of player development. The Thornton injury, the kids coming in ... who gives two hoots Libba. He is showing why he was never in the running to coach an AFL team, because he lacks vision and common sense.

List development does not equate to tanking.

List development is a buzzz word to cover for tanking. They are one in the same really. I think once you stop picking your best 22 available some form of tanking is occuring

 

[skipper kelly]

List development does not equate to tanking.

Same thing. No big deal.

Even though a half fit Barry Hall might be better than Sydneys 23rd available player, I would not want him to play if Sydney couldnt make the finals. If they could make the finals then I would want him to play.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We have shown the Johnstone vs Scotland stats for round 22,

Scotland was given a pat on the back for being shit. Johnstone was traded.

 

[Chodders]

This has been an interesting read.

The Carlton fans on here claim that they didn't tank. They quickly point the finger at North Melbourne and Collingwood in the past and say that they didn't do anything that other teams have done in the .....

[Some Text Deleted]

In summary, yes Carlton tanked, as teams in the past have also tanked. They are more in scrutiny because they got a priority pick out of it and eventually led to Chris Judd joining the Blues (no hard feelings on that by the way, hope Juddy rips it up). However they did it because that was best for their club. If we should be angry at anyone it should be at the AFL for having a system that while correctly helps those teams that struggle also encourage teams to 'lose' in order to 'win'.

Excellent post Spartan. I don't necessarily agree with it all, but it is really positive to see some supporters can discuss the issue reasonably without making illogical statements and letting their blind hatred of Carlton come into it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Scotland was given a pat on the back for being shit. Johnstone was traded.

Scotland played loose man in defence, not on Johnstone so how was he shit?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Same thing. No big deal.

Even though a half fit Barry Hall might be better than Sydneys 23rd available player, I would not want him to play if Sydney couldnt make the finals. If they could make the finals then I would want him to play.

I don't think they are the same thing as tanking suggests deliberately trying to lose.

Nobody puts young players in the team to increase their chances of losing, they put them in the team to expose them to AFL pressure and hopefully give them incentive to make the senior side again. As pointed out, it has worked with Bower, Hampson and Grigg whereas Austin still has work to do.

It is all about intent and list management does not equate to deliberately losing.

 

[MadDawg]

you mean the same Travis Johnstone who racked up 15 clangers (AFL league record in 2007) that night...

I guess your right that meant he only had 27 precision disposals.

 

[skipper kelly]

I don't think they are the same thing as tanking suggests deliberately trying to lose.

Nobody puts young players in the team to increase their chances of losing, they put them in the team to expose them to AFL pressure and hopefully give them incentive to make the senior side again. As pointed out, it has worked with Bower, Hampson and Grigg whereas Austin still has work to do.

It is all about intent and list management does not equate to deliberately losing.

Deliberately trying to lose is match fixing and would need evidence to satisfy a high burden of proof. That is not tanking.

Its all word games anyway mate. You know as well as I do that it was in Carltons best interests not to win those last few games. Thats the system put in place. When you reward losing you are playing with fire.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

When you reward losing you are playing with fire.

Agree with that. Have been calling for PPs to be abolished for ages now. I just don't want the next crap team to be the victim of it being suddenly removed. They have to say that as of 2011 or something, no more PPs. That way sides on the way down now can rebuild in time to go back up and everyone is starting with a clean slate and advance knowledge.

 

[skipper kelly]

Agree with that. Have been calling for PPs to be abolished for ages now. I just don't want the next crap team to be the victim of it being suddenly removed. They have to say that as of 2011 or something, no more PPs. That way sides on the way down now can rebuild in time to go back up and everyone is starting with a clean slate and advance knowledge.

I dont want a contrived competition so I dont give a toss what picks the next crap team get.