Carlton selections round 18-22

[MadDawg]

Not the point at all. What Libba has actually said can be refuted with ease. I have no doubt we managed our list. We do so every year when we are out of contention and sometimes it reaps rewards in terms of player development..

firstly:

When exactly will we see Carlton "reap rewards in terms of player development"?

Secondly:

The way in which you try to brush aside Libba comments are akin to a Christian extremist brushing aside the theory of evolution. The facts are there yet you choose your own reality.

 

[MarkT]

Agree with that. Have been calling for PPs to be abolished for ages now. I just don't want the next crap team to be the victim of it being suddenly removed. They have to say that as of 2011 or something, no more PPs. That way sides on the way down now can rebuild in time to go back up and everyone is starting with a clean slate and advance knowledge.

Why can’t they be removed immediately? Everyone knows where they stand before they start playing for the picks and if they finish last they STILL GET PICK 1 anyway. Their crapness is still stupidly rewarded with competition dampening prizes.

2012 is still going to be the year after the PPs were awarded and someone is likely to still be as crap as whoever finishes last this year.

 

[bomba4eva]

1. You lost your last 9 games consecuitively

2. You made some dubious selections towards the end

3. Your own Assistant Coach stated publicly that Carlton tanked.

All the proof I need.

Dont expect these Carlton fools to look at your comments. Apparently they didnt tank when their Assistant Coach came out and admitted the Blues were tanking. Some of the rubbish in the OP deserves to be openly scoffed at.

 

[lamaros]

What I like best about this discussion is the failed logic of another kind.

Carlton did not tank! No way, never. Ever! They're just really awful: "We lost 11 straight games! We sucked!" And yet, despite picking up only Judd and a young ruckman they all of a sudden a leaps and bounds better than Melbourne, Richmond, Essendon and Bulldogs.

What's it going to be? Is Carlton the worst team in the league, or did they deliberatly underachieve in the later part of last year?

(Note: Essendon also tanked. We had players go get surgery, young kids come into the team, etc. Except we just happened to suck at tanking and still managed 10 wins for the year.)

'Tanking' is a stupid conversation. Every team is going to play worse than they could once they're missing finals, it's just pratical to try new things, rest players and give kids a run in such situations. The only problem is that the AFL gives an overpowered priority pick for those who are really good at it.

Get rid of the priority pick; crapness should be compensated for, but in no way be rewarded.

 

[celtic_pride]

I dont want a contrived competition so I dont give a toss what picks the next crap team get.

Well in that case, I expect sydney to lose the extra half a million in the salary cap space more then any other club (living allowance) and don't get any more rookies then any other club, nor get first dibs on any young player in the NSW/ACT area ??

Seriously forget the PP's and Carlton for a moment, Sydney does appear to have more advantages then most other clubs, esp the rookies, that is why I suspect they have had good luck with injuries the last few years, they have had more spots on the list to rest/replace injured players.

 

[itsintheblood]

ODN, please explain how carlton can be 23 points in front against essendon at 3qtr time and in a winning position 3 minutes before for the end of the match and then fevola comes off and goes back on soon after and carlton lose the game? Sorry, I hear what you're saying and you do make sense but something smells. I'm not saying Libba is a creditable witness or what he says is factual but you know, and everyone else knows Carlton and even richmond did not want to win the last game in particular. However, he was in the inner sanctum and isn't a stupid man. You don't become an assistant coach at this level if you're not intelligent. He was about as close to the action as one could get to make these calls.

Proving a team is tanking is a difficult thing. People can only judge based on what happens outside the norm. ie, key players coming off at critical times, key players being sent for early operations, opposition players running amok and not being tagged, players being played out of position, the list goes on.

At the end of the day, the prizes at the end of the season for carlton clearly lead people to believe losing was in their best interest. For richmond, winning in rd 22 meant we'd lose pick 2 to carlton and end up with pick 3 instead. I for one didn't want that and it's obvious terry wallace didnt either following our worst season since the 60's.

 

[drusswaylander]

yes they were both loose, that is not my point, yes they both got 3 and 2 votes respectively, what does that prove? that the umpires get turned on by watching guys rack up alot of possession. scotland had 24 kicks and 17 handpasses (handpasses indicating that pressure was being applied - if you were under no pressure why would you handpass?). TJ had 35 kicks! suggesting far less pressure was being applied, and knowing how damaging he can be by foot, why did this lack of pressure persist throughout the entire game?

Why did Travis get delisted again?

Travis has been an elite kick in the past, but last season he had a kicking efficiency of 68.4%. Not picking up a bloke who was kicking like that is hardly proof we were tanking How many clangers did he have in that game again?

I think part of the problem is that the definition of what tanking actually entails has a different meaning for a number of people.

The AFL and a number of people are making a clear distinction between list management and matchday manipulation. Personally I think that distinction is a little hazy, but there you go.

I like many Blues did not think it was in Carlton's interest long term to win the Melbourne game(through gritted teeth), but I'm not certain our coaching staff manipulated the result on the day. Libba's version of events has more holes than Swiss cheese and you would hate to be convicted in a court of law on a feeling.

If we had brought Jammo, for example, into the team and played him at full forward then I think that a case could be made that we were playing people in silly positions to lose, but we didn't. Our players played in positions that they could reasonably be expected to.

The whole system needs an overall, because whether or not matchday manipulation goes on...the perception is that it does. Rewards for being rubbish do not sit well in captalist societies. The AFL should also clarify the issue by defining what they consider tanking

 

[Jimthegreat]

Of course we tanked. We'd be stupid to win in that situation as would any other club. I assume we knew Judd was coming well in advance, and together with getting Kreuzer, why would you win. You'd be doing your club no good by winning. We're not the first and certainly won't be the last. People bagging Carlton would be hypocritical enough to want their own clubs to lose in the same situation. Who wouldn't.

Anyway people can keep jumping up and down bagging because get what?

We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer
We got Judd and Kreuzer

So everyone can go get stuffed!!! Hahahahahahahahha!!!

 

[cats2rise]

Who cares if they tanked?

They are still ****ing shit and will be for a fair while. Not much good at all.

 

[Mean Muggin]

For those interested in debating facts, let's take a look at the Carlton sides selected from fround 18 to round 22 to see the depth of this problem Libba has referred to. Just how many dubious changes did we make to these sides?

Round 18
Cain Ackland
Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Luke Blackwell
Paul Bower
Andrew Carrazzo
Brendan Fevola
Brad Fisher
Bryce Gibbs
Shaun Grigg
Ryan Houlihan
Ryan Jackson
Michael Jamison
Marc Murphy
Setanta OhAilpin
Jordan Russell
Jason Saddington
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite

Bentick in
Grigg in
Jamison in
Kouta out - hip, retired
Lappin out - hamstring
Wiggins out - hamstring

I can tell you for a fact there was nothing wrong with Wiggins' Hamstring, I heard it from the horses mouth that they used that as an excuse and decided to rest him for the rest of the year so he was fit and firing come round one 2008.

If thats not tanking, please sir, tell me what is. I have no doubt Wiggins would have proved the edge in that game.

 

[drusswaylander]

ODN, please explain how carlton can be 23 points in front against essendon at 3qtr time and in a winning position 3 minutes before for the end of the match and then fevola comes off and goes back on soon after and carlton lose the game?

Again is this proof we tanked? Are we the only team to lose after leading by 23 points at 3qtr time in the history of the game

If we took Fev off to ensure a loss..Why bring him back on?

 

[Jamie007]

I take the bolded option

We may have been really really shit last year.. But I do recall 1 of our 4 wins was against Essendon.. That must make you feel really good..
We were probably trying to lose that game too and still won..

 

[Ole Gill]

I have no doubt Wiggins would have proved the edge in that game.

There are words on the page, but they don't make sense!

 

[Spartan]

Thanks to the two people that replied on my original post. To those you have decided to still pick off easy wins by replying to those saying "Carlton tanked cause I said so", I'm still waiting.

Thrawn you imply that you would rather have won the game against Melbourne than lost it. I call bullsh*t. Either that or you're in a very, very, small minority. Guess what if West Coast was in the same position I'd be hoping beyond hope that they lost. Guess what, winning the game would have meant no Kreuzner and possibly no Judd as well. You didn't know Judd was coming but having picks #1 and #3 in a pretty strong draft was always going to hold you in gopod stead.

To the Carlton fans, sorry boys but you guys tanked. Its plain and simple. Like I said in my original post the game against Melbourne would have been played very differently if Carlton needed the win to get the PP. Why was Lance Whitnal playing against the Demons? Why not play another rookie if it was about player development? Deep down inside in places you don't want to talk about you were all cheering on Melbourne and cheering everytime the Demons scored a goal or you missed one. Guess what boys, its ok. Heck what do you think Rats and the Carlton management were doing? Lets see we can either win the game and get a little pat on the back, or we can lose the game and get the PP which will set us up nicely. You guys tanked. You weren't the first team to do so and you won't be the last. You got Kreuzner and ultimately Judd out of it. Pat yourselves on the back and savour the victory.

To the others, hey guys seriously there are better things to do than repeatedly telling them they tanked. They did. Get over it. Its no big deal. There is as much chance of these guys admitting that they tanked (with the exception of a few) as Rowan Jones coming out of retirement and winning the brownlow in 2008. Not going to happen. Our club would have probably done the same thing in the same position. They say list management, we say tanking. You say potaytoe I say potahtoe. Its all good. They've got three #1 draft picks in a row now and the best player in the competition. If they fall on their faces (again) then we can sit and laugh about how sh*t they are. If they do well then we can say they cheated and thats why their doing well OR say that it proves that they tanked because one (Judd) or two (Stevens) players can't make that much of a difference. Either way its all good.

 

[lamaros]

We may have been really really shit last year.. But I do recall 1 of our 4 wins was against Essendon.. That must make you feel really good..
We were probably trying to lose that game too and still won..

You must be confused. That's the game where we had it over and done and then Sheeds just decided not to play anyone on Fev. If anyone was trying to lose it wasn't you.

 

[Jamie007]

I can tell you for a fact there was nothing wrong with Wiggins' Hamstring, I heard it from the horses mouth that they used that as an excuse and decided to rest him for the rest of the year so he was fit and firing come round one 2008.

If thats not tanking, please sir, tell me what is. I have no doubt Wiggins would have proved the edge in that game.

Are you for real?? Wiggins being able to change a game

If it were up to me Wiggins wouldnt get a game any week.. I would have delisted him 2 years ago..
It really shows how much you know thinking he can be seen as a winning edge for our side.. The fact that he gets a game shows how poor our list is..

 

[Tennant]

I can tell you for a fact there was nothing wrong with Wiggins' Hamstring, I heard it from the horses mouth that they used that as an excuse and decided to rest him for the rest of the year so he was fit and firing come round one 2008.

If thats not tanking, please sir, tell me what is. I have no doubt Wiggins would have proved the edge in that game.

Yep we tanked now for sure, resting a gun like wiggins

 

[TigersForever]

Didn't Lappin "injure" himself pushing a pram???? I also know someone who knows him and says that he had no injury or at least anything serious that would stop him from playing. He may have made a difference to the result.

 

[drusswaylander]

Thrawn you imply that you would rather have won the game against Melbourne than lost it. I call bullsh*t. Either that or you're in a very, very, small minority. Guess what if West Coast was in the same position I'd be hoping beyond hope that they lost. Guess what, winning the game would have meant no Kreuzner and possibly no Judd as well. You didn't know Judd was coming but having picks #1 and #3 in a pretty strong draft was always going to hold you in gopod stead.

No he did object. One win was all important to Thrawn. We are now working out how to give Judd and the big K back to appease his moral outrage

At the same time those cheering the Demons and applauding misses at goal were pretty sad. Thats why the system needs to be looked at, supporters should never be put in the position of thinking that is better for their team to lose

 

[Mundymagic]

Player selections are a separate issue to tanking.

What should be investigated is Libba's claim that the Macth committee on game day actively pursued de-railing the side any chance of victory.

We can all understand playing kids for development purposes, but when a coach, allegedly, pulled strings to ensure victory was not achieved, something needs to be done.

An investigation at the very least.

 

[drusswaylander]

Yep we tanked now for sure, resting a gun like wiggins

Somehow I think it was tongue in cheek

 

[DanA]

Tanks very much. The Carlton fans on here have really given a compelling argument.

 

[drusswaylander]

Player selections are a separate issue to tanking.

What should be investigated is Libba's claim that the Macth committee on game day actively pursued de-railing the side any chance of victory.

We can all understand playing kids for development purposes, but when a coach, allegedly, pulled strings to ensure victory was not achieved, something needs to be done.

An investigation at the very least.

I agree that they do need to at least talk to Libba and Ratts, but I really don't think that not picking up a bloke who had a kicking efficiency for the season of 68.4% and 17 clangers on the day is proof we manipulated the game.

 

[Spartan]

Tanks very much. The Carlton fans on here have really given a compelling argument.

Well Tanks for stopping by DanA.

 

[mjonc]

I can tell you for a fact there was nothing wrong with Wiggins' Hamstring, I heard it from the horses mouth that they used that as an excuse and decided to rest him for the rest of the year so he was fit and firing come round one 2008.

If thats not tanking, please sir, tell me what is. I have no doubt Wiggins would have proved the edge in that game.

Wiggins was in and out all year with hamstring injuries, he also had no form to warrant automatic selection. So another theory thrown in the bin.