No more appealing. I know that this whole saga has worn on everybody and we would love nothing more than to "win" it. But we aren't going to. It's just a question of how much damage now?
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No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)
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No more appealing. I know that this whole saga has worn on everybody and we would love nothing more than to "win" it. But we aren't going to. It's just a question of how much damage now?
Players should just go a head and answers the scn's if the club want's to appeal let them.
cymarak
Go Gators !
I'm okay with appealing, but only on 2 key conditions:
- It mustn't delay the process of responding to SCNs / ADRVP
- The lawyers must operate on a no-win, no-fee basis (no telling us we've got a good chance of winning, then going 'oh well' when we inevitably lose - if the lawyers aren't prepared to put their money where their mouth is then we don't appeal)
Ben the Gooner
Stand by Hird
What will winning an appeal do? will it finally put a stop to it?
cymarak
Go Gators !
In the best case scenario, yes, if the court directed ASADA to permanently withdraw the SCNs and abandon its investigation.
But as with the original court case, it'd still be possible to 'win' the appeal, but not get absolutely everything we were after - the joint investigation might be deemed illegal, but ASADA may still be allowed to just reissue the SCNs and go on its merry way.
cymarak
Go Gators !
I definitely agree.
The Prosecutor
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Oh really?
I remember saying that there was a witch hunt against Hird though quite a bit of it was justified.
Believe it or not, I am capable of making up my own view and things change over time such as being able to separate Hird the player and club legend from Hird the coach
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I don't think $20k a day QCs work no win/no fee
westking
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If true, then make this deal happen I reckon. The reality is an outcome has to be met where everyone needs to "save face". This is as close as you can get.
We can get on with our next year and delete this thread too. Everyone can write their books and we can read about it all again then but only if you want too.
yaco55
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Why doesn't anyone in the media question the ASADA deals? Why are they offering such weak deals when history says they slam people for minor offences (see Saad).
This is all about claiming a scalp now. They know everyone is over it and that there is a chance that if they offer the sweetest deal known to man then some players may accept. From an ASADA perspective that justifies the last 20 odd months.
The thing is the media and public should be up in arms about any such deals on a number of fronts:
This is all about claiming a scalp now. They know everyone is over it and that there is a chance that if they offer the sweetest deal known to man then some players may accept. From an ASADA perspective that justifies the last 20 odd months.
The thing is the media and public should be up in arms about any such deals on a number of fronts:
- It gives the impression that doping is not heavily punished
- It gives the impression that justice is secondary to claiming a scalp
- Both of the above
Again, sounds good, but you'd just have to stand by whatever the players want to do and support the club. And that means not boycotting membership - one of the stupidest suggestions I've seen.
So looking forward to this thread being deleted.
cymarak
Go Gators !
I expect not, no.
But if we're going to spend more money on legal longshots, I'd like the the lawyers to have some skin in the game, put their money where their mouth is, back up their optimistic assessments of the chance of success, etc. If they're not prepared to do that, maybe they don't really think we have much chance of winning ?
My original post was really being facetious, as there's no chance of those 2 conditions both being met.
Ned_Flanders
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Given some time has passed since the verdict (and temps a a little cooler here), thought I'd drop in to give my 5c on some of the recent events:
1) Appeal or not to appeal
Personally I wouldn't. You always have to ask "whats in it for me?", and I don't see much in this for the club, and even less for the players. An appeal is going to just delay everything a further 12 months at least, and is unlikely to succeed (apparently). Even if it does, ASADA will just re-interview and we continue rolling along.
I would only appeal if the strategy is to drag out the process as long as possible (to push the ultimate verdict to a point when as many players have retired as possible), but I don't think this is needed now given ASADA is playing lets make a deal.
2) The reported offer
If todays report is right (no admission of guilt, 6 month bans, miss a handful of games), I'd seriously consider taking it. I know some reports have said the the players lawyers think the case is very circumstantial (based upon reviewing the 100 pages Little received in the Fed case), but given the lower standard for guilt in this tribunal, its a big gamble to fight. This offer (if legit) won't label the players as drug cheats, and gives them a suspension equivalent to Tyrone belting Cox. Given the potential for a 2 year ban, its a very low cost option.
3) Next steps
I'm talking from the cheap seats, but I know you are already debating this issue, so here are my thoughts FWIW:
- you want to punish the club, DONT KILL YOUR MEMBERSHIP. Downgrade it by all means, but dont give up your voting rights. The best thing you can do if you want to change the clubs management is vote them out, walking away from your membership takes this weapon away from you.
- Just IMO, but if players take the plea, all board members should resign (once replacements are available). They had a duty to protect the club and put management in place to do this. By having players banned for PED use, losing the 2013 season, losing players, and opening the club up to potential legal action from players, they have clearly failed (be it neglect or incompetence, it doesn't matter)
- The tougher call for the club is the staff remaining who had any connection to the supplement program. Purely to put a line in the sand and start fresh, I'd move on all parties - including Doc Reid and Bomber T. I genuinely appreciate the ties these guys have in the club and with the supporter base, but this isn't just a bottoming out scenario - it was a catastrophic failure of management.
- I also think its time for the fans to take a stand. You made your voice heard with #standbyhird, and yes you copped all sorts of flak for that, but it showed your supporter base can unite and be annoyingly loud. I think you need to unite again, and make the club well aware that enough is enough, its time to take the hit, and that the club is owned by the members, not a handful of key players running the show right now.
1) Appeal or not to appeal
Personally I wouldn't. You always have to ask "whats in it for me?", and I don't see much in this for the club, and even less for the players. An appeal is going to just delay everything a further 12 months at least, and is unlikely to succeed (apparently). Even if it does, ASADA will just re-interview and we continue rolling along.
I would only appeal if the strategy is to drag out the process as long as possible (to push the ultimate verdict to a point when as many players have retired as possible), but I don't think this is needed now given ASADA is playing lets make a deal.
2) The reported offer
If todays report is right (no admission of guilt, 6 month bans, miss a handful of games), I'd seriously consider taking it. I know some reports have said the the players lawyers think the case is very circumstantial (based upon reviewing the 100 pages Little received in the Fed case), but given the lower standard for guilt in this tribunal, its a big gamble to fight. This offer (if legit) won't label the players as drug cheats, and gives them a suspension equivalent to Tyrone belting Cox. Given the potential for a 2 year ban, its a very low cost option.
3) Next steps
I'm talking from the cheap seats, but I know you are already debating this issue, so here are my thoughts FWIW:
- you want to punish the club, DONT KILL YOUR MEMBERSHIP. Downgrade it by all means, but dont give up your voting rights. The best thing you can do if you want to change the clubs management is vote them out, walking away from your membership takes this weapon away from you.
- Just IMO, but if players take the plea, all board members should resign (once replacements are available). They had a duty to protect the club and put management in place to do this. By having players banned for PED use, losing the 2013 season, losing players, and opening the club up to potential legal action from players, they have clearly failed (be it neglect or incompetence, it doesn't matter)
- The tougher call for the club is the staff remaining who had any connection to the supplement program. Purely to put a line in the sand and start fresh, I'd move on all parties - including Doc Reid and Bomber T. I genuinely appreciate the ties these guys have in the club and with the supporter base, but this isn't just a bottoming out scenario - it was a catastrophic failure of management.
- I also think its time for the fans to take a stand. You made your voice heard with #standbyhird, and yes you copped all sorts of flak for that, but it showed your supporter base can unite and be annoyingly loud. I think you need to unite again, and make the club well aware that enough is enough, its time to take the hit, and that the club is owned by the members, not a handful of key players running the show right now.
Ned_Flanders
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the doping bodies have a history of this. Armstrong was initially offered a soft ban and losing 2 tours.
for some reason they love getting the admissions and seem happy to deal to get them
Big footy - the forum that never sleeps
westking
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I agree. The key has been the club and players believe they have done nothing wrong. As Tim Watson reminded everyone recently, no one at Essendon is going to plead guilty to something they havnt done...especially when no evidence has been presented. The court ruling has fallen ASADA's and the AFL's way-that is a win for them. A win for Essendon is a no guilty finding.
However the club did allow the potential for something to happen (mind you so did a few other clubs namely GCS and Melbourne but anyway) and this result acknowledges that.
In regards to memberships, I consider myself as a supporter. I will probably be increasing my spend (again) this year and I will be very happy to do so!!! The difference for me is that I aint going to support anything thats AFL. Even the "free AFL membership" I will prob get will be thrown in the bin. They can go get farked.
If RFC supporters see through ASADA, then...
How very easy to say of you when you sit on the fence with nothing invested in it. How noble
And how does the club train over the pre-season?
Ladies and Gentleman, the oracle has spoken. The AFL has stamped Hird's papers, yet he received a 2 year extension after publicly fighting and chastising the AFL. Wait wat?
Yaco you simply have to come back from Hong Kong and advise the club. I am amazed you even can see us from your lofty perch.
So when board elections are held, they are only legit after the AFL ticks it off?
- Feb 12, 2010
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Officially they won't label the players as cheats.
Joe Public doesn't come under "officially" and the players will be seen as cheats.
Then we have the question of whether WADA will sweep in, challenge it, and increase the bans.
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