Unofficial Preview Changes and discussion v Cats Round 19 @ Gabba.

[Elixuh]

But we have persisted for 13 games or something like that and the same weaknesses are still apparent.

I think his output has improved and am willing to see another few weeks.

We went half a season with him in terrible form and kicking next to no goals.

His athleticism has improved a bit and he has kicked 9 in two weeks. If he can kick 3 in a prelim I would take that.

 

[Section 5]

Rayner stays. He is far better player that some others mentioned including Ah Chee.
Gunston stays. He has done nothing but kick goals and be competitive in his 2 games back. Forget about early in the season but he needs to keep it up.
However, i never liked Gunston going back in defense.
I preferred Rayner which they used when Gunston was out.
Now i would prefer to use Coleman late in the quarters. Easily managed late in the quarters with 7 true defenders on the ground when needed.

 

[Section 5]

That is so crazy it just might work.
I think the reason to drop Gunston or Rayner back though is because they have the size to impact a marking contest. Kiddy, not so much.

Not really crazy.
It should not really be about the marking contest either. Good positioning and work around stoppages is also crucial.
At present the plan is to have someone going to the wing late in quarters (usually last 2 minutes) then dropping back to defense, any suitable player can fill the role. Afterall the idea is to have numbers back in defense to limit scoring late in quarters.

Gunston has been given that role (wrongly i believe) in all the games he has played.
Gunston goes to the wing. The wing goes elsewhere most likely forward, or to the bench and that interchange player goes forward.

My scenario is the defender on the bench ( i used Coleman as an example) at that time comes on the field and goes to wing, then drops back to defense.
This can only be done at certain times as you can't always make a change from the bench that late in the game.
However, you can get a change going a bit earlier than that, if you think it is needed.
The 7th bench defender (maybe it's Wilmot/ McKenna) comes onto the ground in place of someone that is not a defender.
Coleman to wing Wilmot to defense or vice versa.
Either way we have 7 true defenders defending in those last couple of minutes back in defense.

Whenever this happens you always need someone in the forward 6 to then take that wing position during the remaining game time.

 

[Matrix10]

We need more ruck class.

And there's Grundy running aroung in the VFL.

Come on. Make the call.

There is a reason why Collingwood wanted him off their books and why he is currently running around in the Magoos at Melbourne, the current quick transition game has done him in , he is both slow of mind and reactive to the state of play , he is not your answer .

 

[SizeMatters]

.

We need to work out what we want to do with Rayner. As a third tall, his role was defined and he was able to perform in it. As a whatever forward, he's a little like a jack of some trades, master of none.

Would be a very hard position to play.

Or how about the best option? He pulls his finger out of his arse and works on his game...

But nah, let's coddle him and change our whole structure so poor little Rayner can get his 12 touches and barely a goal a game.

If he can't adapt, he shouldn't be best 22. He's barely best 22 when he's playing his 'preferred' role as it is.

Training block time.

 

[Nunez]

.

Or how about the best option? He pulls his finger out of his arse and works on his game...

But nah, let's coddle him and change our whole structure so poor little Rayner can get his 12 touches and barely a goal a game.

If he can't adapt, he shouldn't be best 22. He's barely best 22 when he's playing his 'preferred' role as it is.

Training block time.

I think he absolutely does need to work on his fitness, but your approach is overly simplistic. It reminds me of when people said we should drop Lewy Taylor because he couldn't take a contested mark.

Rayner has shown his strengths are best as a third tall or on the ball. He doesn't have the fitness to play on the ball and he really started to shine as a third tall before Gunston came back in.

 

[rye]

rayner got coaches votes and had a great game playing alongside gunston the week before

had a career game against collingwood with gunston in the side earlier in the year

i think this rayner and gunston cant play together thing is a bit of a furphy

 

[SizeMatters]

I think he absolutely does need to work on his fitness, but your approach is overly simplistic. It reminds me of when people said we should drop Lewy Taylor because he couldn't take a contested mark.

Rayner has shown his strengths are best as a third tall or on the ball. He doesn't have the fitness to play on the ball and he really started to shine as a third tall before Gunston came back in.

Do you have anything to back up those claims that Rayner 'started to shine' without Gunston? Statistically he performed worse...

I think some posters need to realise that RAYNER is lazy and is happy to collect his 5k and 500k salary on his 12 touches a game.

I wouldn't be opposed to retiring Father Fagan and going all in on Hardwick. A coach who knows how to you know... coach.

 

[SizeMatters]

rayner got coaches votes and had a great game playing alongside gunston the week before

had a career game against collingwood with gunston in the side earlier in the year

i think this rayner and gunston cant play together thing is a bit of a furphy

100%. he has worse games without Gunston in the team. I just call it part of the coping mechanism some posters have as they try to unpack the issues facing this club. These are the posters who probably like, follow and subscribe to Rayner (and other well loved Lions players) social media accounts.

Who can't love Cam's smile? If only being a great footy player meant being likable off field. if only...

 

[M Malice]

Is there a chance that Daniel Rich

10

Daniel Rich

Age

34

Ht

183cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

430.3

5star

D

14.9

4star

K

13.1

5star

HB

1.8

1star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.0

2star

MG

384.3

5star

D

16.2

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

5.2

5star

comes back into the side this weekend?

Gee I hope Dunkley gets up for this game.

 

[golions]

Are we really going to use Gunston’s output against West Coast as some sort of benchmark? Yes he did kick 6 but the Eagles are barely AFL standard. Do we real think Gunston is going to be competitive against the better teams based on that? Can you imagine him producing enough output to justify a GF appearance? If not, we should be putting games into one of the younger brigade (with all the respect to Gunston and his stellar career at Hawthorn and the champion bloke that he is)

 

[SizeMatters]

Is there a chance that Daniel Rich comes back into the side this weekend?

Gee I hope Dunkley gets up for this game.

Kill me if Rich comes back. But wouldn't put it past Father Fagan.

He's shellshocked. So will go back to what he knows best... Rich to line up HBF.

 

[Nathan Barley]

Do you have anything to back up those claims that Rayner 'started to shine' without Gunston? Statistically he performed worse...

I think some posters need to realise that RAYNER is lazy and is happy to collect his 5k and 500k salary on his 12 touches a game.

I wouldn't be opposed to retiring Father Fagan and going all in on Hardwick. A coach who knows how to you know... coach.

I remember a certain poster pumping him up as a defender at the start of the season…

 

[SizeMatters]

I remember a certain poster pumping him up as a defender at the start of the season…

Pumping up is a bit of a stretch. I could see why he was trailed down back but Father Fagan saw enough of Rayner and his piss poor efforts down there to make the change. It's not a case of if it's not broke don't fix it with Rayner it's more a case of the tail is wagging the dog.

 

[martinson]

I remember a certain poster pumping him up as a defender at the start of the season…

I don't think it was the silliest thing ever.

I'm all for putting him somewhere where he can get into the game and have the impact that he's capable of on rare occasions.

Right now he's rudderless.

You want the number 1 draft pick to be in your best players more than a couple of times a season.

He seems to just not finish the job wherever we play him . Just a bit parts player who we hope is going to kill it in big games.

I think that hope is now forlorn and it's time to either give him that 3rd tall role which is preferred imo , or somewhere else where we can get some value out of him.

 

[Harris Specter]

I remember a certain poster pumping him up as a defender at the start of the season…

I recall he was shouted down too, everyone was against him. Pity it's just as irrational as some of the rants in this thread.

 

[martinson]

I remember a certain poster pumping him up as a defender at the start of the season…

The only reason we put him down back was because there was a blow up at the start of the season and with the passage of time it's clear which one we'd rather have in the side.

 

[SizeMatters]

I recall he was shouted down too, everyone was against him. Pity it's just as irrational as some of the rants in this thread.

Yeah nice one. Way to bring back past trauma… just recovered from all the burnt. You knew what you were doing. Reported.

 

[McIvor]

100%. he has worse games without Gunston in the team. I just call it part of the coping mechanism some posters have as they try to unpack the issues facing this club. These are the posters who probably like, follow and subscribe to Rayner (and other well loved Lions players) social media accounts.

Who can't love Cam's smile? If only being a great footy player meant being likable off field. if only...

I personally think that too many accept mediocrity and don’t want to upset people such as making a hard call on Fagan and dropping or moving on untouchables.

Even Gold Coast have grown up and are now making unpopular decisions that will finally see their club moving forward.

I say this wholeheartedly appreciative of what Fagan has done but he’s just not going to take the club to the next step and we need someone that will not play favourites, will make hard calls and will drop players. Change is required across the board including some hard calls on many players.

 

[briztoon]

I personally think that too many accept mediocrity and don’t want to upset people such as making a hard call on Fagan and dropping or moving on untouchables.

Even Gold Coast have grown up and are now making unpopular decisions that will finally see their club moving forward.

I say this wholeheartedly appreciative of what Fagan has done but he’s just not going to take the club to the next step and we need someone that will not play favourites, will make hard calls and will drop players. Change is required across the board including some hard calls on many players.

Gold Coast need a massive clean out, from the top, if they're to move forward.

 

[3KZ is Football]

I think he absolutely does need to work on his fitness, but your approach is overly simplistic. It reminds me of when people said we should drop Lewy Taylor because he couldn't take a contested mark.

Rayner has shown his strengths are best as a third tall or on the ball. He doesn't have the fitness to play on the ball and he really started to shine as a third tall before Gunston came back in.

Taylor was a small forward who took 7 contested marks in 6 seasons. His lack of marking ability was a major flaw in his game. Apologists tried to run the line that as a small forward, it wasn’t his role - failing to recognise that if he could take a contested mark he would be a more potent attacking weapon. So what did the Coach and list managers do, they recruited Lincoln McCarthy, who has taken 55 contested marks in less than 5 seasons and got rid of Taylor.

After nearly 6 seasons playing senior AFL football and at age 23 years of age, if Rayner is not fit enough to play on the ball or run out games then we need to look at whether or not we should move him on. Rayner was a Number 1 Draft pick and despite numerous ‘false dawns’ he has been cosseted by Fagan and he has not delivered. His career average of 12 disposals a game is poor and he doesn’t warrant the hype. You only need to look at a player like Horne-Francis to appreciate how soft Rayner is and how Fagan’s limitless supply of mulligan cards have harmed Rayner. Instead of “great”, Rayner is “good”, but he is also capable of being a liability, which he was against Melbourne.

 

[M Malice]

Lets hope the match committee follow the Demons lead in dropping high profile import Brodie Grundy

4

Brodie Grundy

Age

30

Ht

202cm

Wt

105kg

Pos.

Ruck

Career

Season

Last 5

D

17.5

4star

K

8.0

3star

HB

9.6

5star

CL

4.1

5star

HO

32.0

5star

D

16.4

4star

K

6.8

3star

HB

9.6

5star

CL

4.0

5star

HO

34.6

5star

D

13.8

4star

K

5.2

2star

HB

8.6

5star

CL

2.6

5star

HO

20.6

5star

by dropping Jack Gunston

19

Jack Gunston

Age

33

Ht

193cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.5

4star

K

10.5

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

5.7

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.6

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.6

2star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

11.2

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.6

3star

for this game, leaving Daniel Rich

10

Daniel Rich

Age

34

Ht

183cm

Wt

95kg

Pos.

Def

Career

Season

Last 5

D

19.7

5star

K

12.6

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

3.2

5star

MG

430.3

5star

D

14.9

4star

K

13.1

5star

HB

1.8

1star

M

3.8

4star

T

1.0

2star

MG

384.3

5star

D

16.2

4star

K

10.4

4star

HB

5.8

4star

M

2.6

3star

T

5.2

5star

in the reserves and if Josh Dunkley

5

Josh Dunkley

Age

27

Ht

191cm

Wt

87kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

21.8

5star

K

10.4

4star

HB

11.3

5star

M

4.3

4star

T

5.8

5star

CL

3.2

5star

D

20.7

5star

K

7.0

3star

HB

13.7

5star

M

2.3

2star

T

5.3

5star

CL

2.7

4star

D

14.2

4star

K

7.2

3star

HB

7.0

5star

M

4.8

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

1.4

4star

is available dropping Jarryd Lyons

17

Jarryd Lyons

Age

32

Ht

184cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

20.5

5star

K

11.8

4star

HB

8.7

5star

M

2.9

3star

T

4.4

5star

CL

4.8

5star

D

21.7

5star

K

14.7

5star

HB

7.0

4star

M

3.4

3star

T

5.1

5star

CL

4.7

5star

D

11.0

3star

K

5.2

2star

HB

5.8

4star

M

1.8

2star

T

2.0

4star

CL

1.6

4star

.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Regarding Rayner, the question is, are there any circumstances under which Fagan would drop him from the senior team? After over 5 years at the Lions under Fagan the answer appears to be no. This means that a set of circumstances apply to Rayner that don’t apply to many other players on our list. That is a problem and it has impacted on the way he has been socialised as a footballer and the way he prepares and performs. Time for some tough love for Rayner and others if we are to take the next step. No more “learnings” we need to see RESULTS. Given the talent on our list and our great run with injuries we are massive under performers.

 

[3KZ is Football]

Let’s hope the match committee follow the Demons lead in dropping high profile import Brodie Grundy by dropping Jack Gunston for this game, leaving Daniel Rich in the reserves and if Josh Dunkley is available dropping Jarryd Lyons.

But if we drop Gunston, who will play on the wing? Surely he was a great option matching up on Lachie Hunter last round and Fagan would no doubt be eyeing off Duncan or Smith as Gunston’s opponent on the wing this week.

 

[M Malice]

But if we drop Gunston, who will play on the wing? Surely he was a great option matching up on Lachie Hunter last round and Fagan would no doubt be eyeing off Duncan or Smith as Gunston’s opponent on the wing this week.

Duncan and Smith are both in the upper echelon of gut running wingers in the competition, I wonder if there could be a left field selection in Harry Sharp for this game. The Cats demolition of us in last years Prelim was astonishingly good, they also seem to have found form, I am really worried about this game.

The nightmare scenario for this game is if we go in with too many below par runners... please no Gunston or Rich.