Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict

[Kurve]

Here is
- Claremont Murders - Part One and Part Two
- Media
- The Bunker
- Hey Bret? Stalking Claremont the book.
- Justice Hall's Decision 619 pgs

 

[BonzaRam]

I would think if his leave and sick days were in the system, long service leave would also be in there. There is no date that I can find of when BRE started with Telstra but even if he was due long service leave, as a single man who clearly relied on that Telstra vehicle I don't think he took it until after he met Wife 2. Three months is a long time for even a slackass Telstra not to notice his vehicle should be in the pool and/or for another staff member to wonder if BREs getting special treatment and say something about it.

Can you convert long service leave to a cash payment and continue working? If so, that might have gone to the deposit on the house with Wife 2.

page 136 The Verdict

432 The PERKINS system stored HR data, including position information, and some information about leave. Mr Vomero extracted some information about the accused including positions he held at Telstra, some of his travel history, the dates he took leave, compensation plans and pay information. The accused's personnel file recorded that he commenced as an apprentice technician on 28January 1986 and was appointed as a permanent Telecom Australia staff member on 28January 1987.

 

[BFew]

Can you convert long service leave to a cash payment and continue working? If so, that might have gone to the deposit on the house with Wife 2.

Have never heard of that happening from the 90's and beyond unless your employment ends, or there is a change of legal entities you are employed by because of either
- privatisation, sale, merger, buyout, divestment, or other change of legal entity
and there is provision in the legal/contract documents or any workplace/enterprise agreements, or agreement between the old and new company/legal entities governing Long Service and other leave transition from the new entity to the old entity, that provides the option for a payout of some or all categories of leave.

Have we established what month/year BRE's employment with Telecom would have contractually moved from Telecom to Telstra?

 

[Kurve]

Have never heard of that happening from the 90's and beyond unless your employment ends, or there is a change of legal entities you are employed by because of either
- privatisation, sale, merger, buyout, divestment, or other change of legal entity
and there is provision in the legal/contract documents or any workplace/enterprise agreements, or agreement between the old and new company/legal entities governing Long Service and other leave transition from the new entity to the old entity, that provides the option for a payout of some or all categories of leave.

Have we established what month/year BRE's employment with Telecom would have contractually moved from Telecom to Telstra?

I worked for a subsidiary of Telstra a long time ago and was offered full holiday pay and work through the holiday period. Just starting out, I took the holiday pay in a lump sum, continued to work through the break and they continued to pay me. It was lovely actually, there was only a few of us in there with four floors all to ourselves.

 

[BFew]

I would think if his leave and sick days were in the system, long service leave would also be in there.

Still doesn't guarantee that the person tasked with extracting the data from the old system, possible using a database query or database extraction tool, plugged in the write parameters or the correct code for the long service leave parts0.

The worker(s) that did this (assuming there was no quality control and peer review on what he did) may well have stuffed up his data query or even the report from any data query, and the Long Service Leave part might have never made it into the final report provided to the Telstra Global Payroll Manager, who was probably not the Telstra person who actually did the query.

For all we know the person(s) who did the leave data query/report to present to the Telstra Global Payroll Manager, might have been working for an outsourced company, and the person(s) that actually did the query/report might have been located offshore at very cheap labor rates.

 

[BonzaRam]

Have never heard of that happening from the 90's and beyond unless your employment ends, or there is a change of legal entities you are employed by because of either
- privatisation, sale, merger, buyout, divestment, or other change of legal entity
and there is provision in the legal/contract documents or any workplace/enterprise agreements, or agreement between the old and new company/legal entities governing Long Service and other leave transition from the new entity to the old entity, that provides the option for a payout of some or all categories of leave.

Have we established what month/year BRE's employment with Telecom would have contractually moved from Telecom to Telstra?

Can an employee cash out their long service leave?
Yes, an employer and employee may agree to cash out an employee’s long service leave once the employee has completed the necessary service and the leave has accrued. This agreement must be in writing and the employee must be given an adequate benefit for the leave they have cashed out.A long service leave entitlement cannot be cashed out in advance of the employee having completed the necessary service (i.e. prior to the leave being accrued), either through a lump sum payment or a loaded up base rate of pay or commission payment.

An example -Emma is currently saving hard for her wedding next year. When her long service leave falls due, she asks her employer to cash out half of the leave. Emma’s employer Lorraine writes an agreement for both to sign, specifying that Emma will receive 4 weeks’ additional pay in lieu of taking 4 weeks’ long service leave. Lorraine keeps a copy of this agreement with her time and wages records and in Emma’s employee file.

https://www.commerce.wa.gov.au/sites/default/files/atoms/files/long_service_leave_in_western_australia_fact_sheet_-_february_2019_0.pdf

 

[Kurve]

Still doesn't guarantee that the person tasked with extracting the data from the old system, possible using a database query or database extraction tool, plugged in the write parameters or the correct code for the long service leave parts0.

The worker(s) that did this (assuming there was no quality control and peer review on what he did) may well have stuffed up his data query or even the report from any data query, and the Long Service Leave part might have never made it into the final report provided to the Telstra Global Payroll Manager, who was probably not the Telstra person who actually did the query.

For all we know the person(s) who did the leave data query/report to present to the Telstra Global Payroll Manager, might have been working for an outsourced company, and the person(s) that actually did the query/report might have been located offshore at very cheap labor rates.

Are you saying after this epic trial we cant trust the information in the judgement B?

 

[BonzaRam]

Long Service Leave Act 1958

5.Limited contracting‑out of long service leave

An employer and an employee may agree that the employee may forgo his entitlement to long service leave under this Act if —
(a)the employee is given an adequate benefit in lieu of the entitlement; and
(b)the agreement is in writing.

Long Service Leave Act 1958 04-g0-05 Xml

www.legislation.wa.gov.au

 

[BFew]

Yes, an employer and employee may agree to cash out an employee’s long service leave once the employee has completed the necessary service and the leave has accrued.

But can anyone remember anyone actually doing this in the 1990's.

If anyone can dig up the various relevant versions of the 1980's and 1990's and early 2000's Telstra workplace agreements that would have stated whether this was an option for Telstra employees like BRE, that would be useful.

 

[Kurve]

But can anyone remember anyone actually doing this in the 1990's.

If anyone can dig up the various relevant versions of the 1980's and 1990's and early 2000's Telstra workplace agreements that would have stated whether this was an option for Telstra employees like BRE, that would be useful.

Why is it relevant? Long service leave isn't mentioned in the judgement. As it pertains to Marsha Johnson that period has been examined.

 

[BFew]

Are you saying after this epic trial we cant trust the information in the judgement B?

Some data might be incomplete or incorrect due to no fault of the judge.

 

[ms finch]

Long Service Leave Act 1958

5.Limited contracting‑out of long service leave

An employer and an employee may agree that the employee may forgo his entitlement to long service leave under this Act if —
(a)the employee is given an adequate benefit in lieu of the entitlement; and
(b)the agreement is in writing.

Long Service Leave Act 1958 04-g0-05 Xml

www.legislation.wa.gov.au

Depends on whether the employer agreed to this, though, I think. We’d have to find the workplace agreements from that period.

 

[Kurve]

Some data might be incomplete or incorrect due to no fault of the judge.

We're not talking about just some data though, it's an issue of three months when he wouldn't have been at work. Investigators would have picked it up I'm sure.

That couldn't be hidden.

 

[BFew]

Why is it relevant? Long service leave isn't mentioned in the judgement.

Because the verdict report says that the system that was used to attempt to provide data on all of BRE's leave, only had "some" of the information about leave in that system, which implies it was missing some, and thus we can't rule out that it might have been missing "some" for BRE during key periods in 1996/1997.

 

[BFew]

We're not talking about just some data though, it's an issue of three months when he wouldn't have been at work . Investigators would have picked it up I'm sure.

He might have taken any accrued 3 months long service leave in smaller batches. Maybe a week or two here and there for years.
Some people take their long service leave by working reduced or part time hours for a very long period, if they are allowed to and want to.

 

[Kurve]

He might have taken any accrued 3 months long service leave in smaller batches. Maybe a week or two here and there for years.
Some people take their long service leave by working reduced or part time hours for a very long period, if they are allowed to and want to.

We've got as much clarity as we're going to get that is trustworthy, in Justice Hall's judgement after three years of probing BREs history with Telstra, interviewing every Telstra man and his dog and a mammoth trial. Investigators would have found out if he took LSL in batches.

 

[BFew]

Depends on whether the employer agreed to this, though, I think. We’d have to find the workplace agreements from that period.

https://cwunion.net/telecom/xeba18.pdf

TELSTRA ENTERPRISE AGREEMENT 2018-2021
34. Long service leave 34.1. You get 3 months of long service leave after 10 years of service, and a further 9 days for each additional year of service. 34.2. Further details of your long service leave entitlement are set out in Telstra policy and in the Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976. This Act: a) will apply to you until this Agreement is terminated or replaced; and b) overrides any entitlements to long service leave under State or Territory laws.

Forget trying to find the Telstra HR internal policies from any periods which might provide more options than what is included in the below 1976 Act which does not appear to have a clause allowing for the 3 months accrued long service leave to be paid out instead of the leave been taken in the situation where the employee does not die/resign or the employer and his employment morph into a new legal entity. Something which may or may not have been in Telstra Policy documents for some or all Telstra workers.

But the Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976 is online at

Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976

(3) Where a period of long service leave may at any time be granted to an employee under subsection (2), the approving authority may, at the request of the employee, grant to him or her long service leave on half salary for a period not exceeding twice that first‑mentioned period.

 

[BFew]

We've got as much clarity as we're going to get that is trustworthy, in Justice Hall's judgement after three years of probing BREs history with Telstra, interviewing every Telstra man and his dog and a mammoth trial. Investigators would have found out if he took LSL in batches.

So when Telstra told the Prosecution, and Justice Hall that it had no record it could provide with a list of workplaces that BRE worked at during the 1990's, were police investigators tasked with trying to go back and get the missing info for the key years in the 1990's. And if they were, where are the results of this in the trial or the verdict document?

 

[ms finch]

https://cwunion.net/telecom/xeba18.pdf

Forget trying to find the Telstra HR internal policies from any periods which might provide more options than what is included in the below 1976 Act which does not appear to have a clause allowing for the 3 months accrued long service leave to be paid out instead of the leave been taken in the situation where the employee does not die/resign or the employer and his employment morph into a new legal entity. Something which may or may not have been in Telstra Policy documents for some or all Telstra workers.

But the Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976 is online at

Long Service Leave (Commonwealth Employees) Act 1976

We can rule something out here.
Edwards was first employed as an apprentice on 28 Jan 1986. That means he couldn’t have been on long service leave when Sarah went missing (and in any case he worked the next day so we know he wasn’t).

He became a fully fledged employee a year later on 28 Jan 1987. Do apprentices start accruing long service leave? If not, he only reached the threshold on 28 Jan 1997.

 

[ms finch]

So when Telstra told the Prosecution, and Justice Hall that it had no record it could provide with a list of workplaces that BRE worked at during the 1990's, were police investigators tasked with trying to go back and get the missing info for the key years in the 1990's. And if they were, where are the results of this in the trial or the verdict document?

They would have had to make an application to add that evidence afterward, because the defence would have needed an opportunity to object and/or consider it. No application was made.

Whether they did it or not, it was definitely not submitted as evidence for the trial.

 

[Kurve]

So when Telstra told the Prosecution, and Justice Hall that it had no record it could provide with a list of workplaces that BRE worked at during the 1990's, were police investigators tasked with trying to go back and get the missing info for the key years in the 1990's. And if they were, where are the results of this in the trial or the verdict document?

We're talking about long service leave. Not every place he jogged into through the 90s.

 

[BFew]

We're talking about long service leave. Not every place he jogged into through the 90s.

But the verdict doc has evidence from another worker saying that this other worker technician was working on-site in the mid-1990's.
So maybe BRE was not flitting from customer site to customer site, and was onsite in large customer workplaces for lengthy periods and very few different customers in the mid-1990's too?

p133

Mr Van Rullen said that if employees took leave or rostered days off that would be manually recorded in timesheets and reflected in their payslips. Because he was working on-site in the mid-1990s he had to telephone the office and record his times over the phone instead of recording them on a timesheet. When he was working at Cloisters he filled in a manual timesheet, which was received by his team leader in the office and then couriered to the main office in Pier Street.

 

[Kurve]

It might be interesting that LSL wasn't mentioned at all and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be if he took it.

It might come up again at some point if he's ever charged with other crimes.

 

[Krusty Crab]

I'm just going to leave this here because I THINK or hope we might find out what he was doing between February and October in 1988.

You can see here how many times he targeted specific houses and that's just what we know of. BRE isn't just a random opportunistic prowler although that factors in, he was targeting someone in at 61 Huntingdale Road. He went there at least four times. There would be many, many times he wasn't seen.

• #74

Mid January 76 Harpenden Street. Theft from clothesline.

21 January 1988, 3.10am Lot 3 Huntingdale Road. Attempt break & enter. Disturbed & ran.

21 January 1988, 4.10 am. 61 Huntingdale Road. Break & enter. Caught in the bedroom. Disturbed & ran.

23 January 1988, 9.00 pm 61 Huntingdale Road. Attempt break & enter. Disturbed & ran.

28 January 1988, 9.30 pm. 61 Huntingdale Road. Spying. Disturbed & ran.

Late Jan & early Feb 1988. Lot 1401 Bullfinch Street. Theft from clothesline.

11 February 1988, 1.00 am, Lot 1386 Bullfinch Street. Break & enter. Disturbed actually in the master bedroom & ran.

11 February, 1988. 2.00am 61 Huntingdale Road. Attempt break & enter. Disturbed & ran.

15 February, 1988. Address suppressed. Break & enter. Attacked. (Ran at risk of witnesses/help near)

THE GAP. WHERE WAS HE? IN A PSYCHIATRIC WARD?

* (20 June 1988. Julie Cutler disappeared, last seen 12.30am. Her car is found in the sea at Cottesloe. Nobody saw a thing.)

8 October, 1988. 78A Harpenden Road, Huntingdale. Break & enter. Attacked. (Ran at risk of witnesses/help near)

do you know where in this timeline BRE meets wife #1?

 

[Kurve]

I've posed the question of long service leave in the 'Hey Bret' thread.

Some of this discussion I might move tomorrow into the trial thread since we're discussing details of the judgement and it's a bit busier in there. Someone who wanders in might have information.

 

[Kurve]

do you know where in this timeline BRE meets wife #1?

Its a little vague.

Pg 82.

EB – evidence summary

226 EB met the accused between 1988 and 1989 when she was 18 or 19 years old. She met him through her then boyfriend, Chris Nixon, who was working with the accused at Telstra. At the time she got to know the accused she was living with Mr Nixon and another friend in Noranda and the accused was living in Gay Street, Gosnells with his parents. She can recall the timing of the start of her relationship with the accused because it coincided with the end of her relationship with Mr Nixon. In mid-1989 EB and the accused got to know each other a lot better, decided they liked each other and the accused moved in with EB sometime before his 21st birthday.65