Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt3 - The Verdict
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BFew
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Had BRE pleaded not changed his not guilty Huntingdale plea to guilty pre-CSK trial, we might have got to here from some of BRE's Telstra workmates in 1988, about what they thought of BRE coming into work the day or days after Valentines day 1988, with any remnants to scratches on his face.
I wonder how BRE might have explained this if teased or questioned about this by his workmates and family?
Did he or his family have any pets in 1988, like a parrot or a cat to assist try and explain away the scratches?
Wouldn't be surprised if he just blamed it on a biking accident.
Girlnextdoor
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Yes BFew, a bike accident as it happened overnight. Unless they had a cat and could say it jumped on him whilst he was asleep and he startled it? Had you heard of this scratching incident before, as I hadn't?
BFew
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I do not recall having read this before.
Edit: Can't find any other evidence of this in other media articles/ live blogs around 18 December 2019 other than that Angie Raphael and Rebecca Le May article you linked to today.
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BFew
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The West's 22 Dec trial to date summary article reported that the Huntingdale victim
'was shocked to feel stubble and instantly realised it was not her boyfriend', but omitted the bit about the fingernail to face evidence which is summarised in the 619 CSK trial verdict document by Justice Hall below and refers to it as
'She dug or jabbed her fingernail into the man's cheek as hard as she could.'
Huntingdale offences
AH – evidence summary
451 AH gave evidence about the offences committed against her by the accused on 14 February 1988. On that date she was 18 years old and was living with her parents and two brothers at a house on Bullfinch Street, Southern River. She knew of the accused because his younger brother was friends with her two brothers and the accused's mother was her netball coach. She also attended the same primary school and high school as the accused.[290]
452 AH had been out with her boyfriend on the day of the offence and she returned to the house at 6.30 pm. She went to bed at around 10.30 or 11.00 pm. She slept with her head at the end of the bed, on her stomach with her hands under the pillow.
453 During the night AH felt something on top of her, which woke her up. She felt that she could not push up and that something was pressing either side of her from her waist below her arms, against her body. She felt a hand come over and be held against her mouth. She said 'It's okay. I won't scream' because she thought that her boyfriend had come back inside the house. She felt another hand come onto the back of her head; one hand was pushing up and one hand was pushing down.
454 AH moved her head from side to side, stopped, moved again and then stopped again, because she was waiting for the person who she thought was her boyfriend to take his hands off her. She said 'what are you doing?' and 'let go of me'. She felt the hand come off the back of her head and the weight of the person shift like he was reaching behind. Then the person moved his other hand and she felt that he had some fabric in his left hand. She noted that the right hand was calloused.
455 AH moved her mouth slightly to the side and said 'I love you'. She then felt the pressure came off her back a little so she could pull her hand out from under the pillow. She raised her hand up in order to stroke his face. As her finger touched his face she felt stubble and realised that it was not her boyfriend's face because she knew that her boyfriend had shaved that day. She dug or jabbed her fingernail into the man's cheek as hard as she could.
456 The man got off her and AH heard a tiny patter; she said he was very light as he landed on the carpet of her room. She put her hands over her head and braced for about four seconds because she thought that he was going to hit her. She turned her head slightly to the side to see who was standing there and did not see anyone so she pushed up on her elbow and looked back over her right shoulder towards her bedroom door. She saw a man standing in her doorway facing towards her. He was almost as tall as the doorframe and was wearing something like a long‑sleeved white cotton nightie.
457 AH said that for 'half a heartbeat' she and the man stared at each other in the dark and then she turned around and hammered on her wall and screamed for her dad. As she turned back the accused took off. She heard a bang and a few seconds later her father and then her mother came into the room and turned the lights on. There was some light in her room from the street light at the front of the house, which came through because her curtains did not close properly.
458 AH found a kimono lying on her bed along the wall, as well as some black knotted stockings and another piece of material. The police arrived and seized the kimono, stockings and piece of material.'
Girlnextdoor
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Terrific BFew, thanks for sharing. I ask again, was a swab taken from the victim's nail? I think she'd mention that she'd deeply scratched her attacker to police when they came?
Girlnextdoor
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I know bloody auto correct and I went back in and corrected it, but you're too bloody quick!I really hope BRE was the only Black Swan in his family.
Maybe if there was a Swan attached to his nail, any DNA WAPOL would have got from under the Huntingdale victim's nails would have pointed to a Swan as being the culprit
Another thing that went through my mind was that H victim said the kimono was lying on the bed next to the wall? So how could cops be sure it was BRE's stain/s on it as couldn't he technically have pinched it from someone else? The scratch DNA SWAB would have been crucial to the case I would have thought? I know DNA was in its infancy (1988 was same year in UK DNA first used to solve a criminal case), but surely they took nail scrapings in that era?
"458 AH found a kimono lying on her bed along the wall"
Eureka moment that led to the discovery of DNA fingerprinting
The technique behind perfect forensic detection came about accidentally, from a failed experiment in a geneticist's lab in 1984
BFew
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Was the lack of reporting of the Huntingdale victim having claimedly dug her nails into BRE's face during the attack, and no mail clippings being taken, deemed by media editors as being potentially so embarrassing to WAPOL, that all but one lone media article (Nine Entertainment) reported on this part of the incident?
Hopefully not, and it's just a case of detective work procedures at the time not including taking nail clippings of living victims, and/or all the other media reporters in the court room not listening carefully enough when writing their blog posts, or upon hearing it, silently going "wow", and wondering the same thing as you, and erring on the side of caution, leaving it out of their live blogs.
Maybe someone can ask Tim Clarke and his CSK team about this at the upcoming public (ticketed) launch of his CSK book (which will have a Q&A session that is being recorded for a West Australian newspaper CSK podcast), and why his team appeared to fail to report on this (assuming that it was not discussed in one of their Podcasts already).
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Girlnextdoor
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BFew
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The "n" inscribed on my keyboard letter "n" is so worn out, and looking like it could be any letter of the alpha(male)bet, that being next door to "M", my nails often get lost in the mail, and I too often end up with a plague of "mice", and lots of "bite"Gotcha!
"no mail clippings "
Even the best of us have "sausage fingers"!
Edit: That looks like a sausage and not a male clipping.
Girlnextdoor
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Oh how exciting BFew that something I stumbled on might be useful!
Regarding fingernail scrapings, I found this from a case back in 1969 where scrapings were taken, so it's been standard procedure in Oz for a long while. Admittedly this was from a deceased victim, but you'd still think it would be standard practice to take a sample so fresh from a perp in 1988? Another poor lovely young woman who walked off alone! And more police "bungling"???
"Roy Stewart was a young detective sent from Perth to join the investigation led by this man, Detective Sgt John Porter. Early on, basic police work was overlooked or bungled. Imprints of shoe and tyre marks found at the crime scene weren't taken. There was no forensic examination of the car Craig and Raisbeck fled to Adelaide in. The clothes they were wearing that night were confiscated but later lost along with fingernail scrapings and swabs taken from Anne's body."
The beauty queen murder
The West Australian Police have revived the Anne Zappelli murder case.
au.news.yahoo.com
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I am not aware of any action over it but i did some digging and discovered this legislation. I am not sure if it is retrospective though, not quite sure what is meant by "Part" in section 77.
Criminal Investigation (Identifying People) Act 2002
Part 4 — Identifying particulars of volunteers and others
17. Definitions
In this Part
“identifying particular”, in relation to a person, means
(a) a print of the person’s hands (including fingers), feet (including toes) or ears;
(b) a photograph of the person (including of an identifying feature of the person);
(c) an impression of an identifying feature of the person (including a dental impression);
(d) a sample of the person’s hair taken for purposes other than obtaining the person’s DNA profile;
(e) the person’s DNA profile;
“volunteer” means a person who is
(a) an adult to whom section 19(1)(a) applies;
(b) an incapable person to whom section 19(1)(b) applies; or
(c) a child to whom section 19(1)(c) applies.
Division 2 — Volunteers
19. (2)
(e) that he or she may decide whether
(i) to limit the forensic purposes for which the volunteer’s identifying information may be used; or
(ii) to allow the identifying information to be used for unlimited forensic purposes;
(f) that he or she may decide whether the identifying information can be kept by the WA Police
(i) for a limited period; or
(ii) indefinite
62. Identifying information of volunteers
(1) Unless subsection (2) applies, identifying information of a volunteer obtained under Part 4 Division 2
(a) must not
(i) be compared with any information in a forensic database; or
(ii) be put in a forensic database, except in accordance with the decision of the volunteer, or responsible person, made or changed under section 20;
(b) if it is a DNA profile and may be compared with information in a DNA database may only be compared in accordance with section 78; and
(c) must be destroyed in accordance with the decision of the volunteer, or responsible person, made or changed under section 20.
77. DNA profiles lawfully obtained before commencement of Part
A DNA profile of a person lawfully obtained for a forensic purpose before the commencement of this Part and lawfully retained may be put in the statistical index for statistical purposes if the information put in the index does not include the personal details of that person.
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It is quite hard to scratch through a beard and the beard itself would hide the scratch or mark.
I had a car radiator explode in my face once. i had a beard the time. The burn marks and scabbing were barely visible through the beard. If it wasn't for the damage to the bare parts of my face people wouldn't have believed me if I told em.
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Sarah spent time speaking with the bouncers downstairs though & presumably waiting for a cab to turn up at the rank there. Then the walk from CBV to the phone box would have taken her 5 mins max at a slow walk. Cab arrived 3 mins later so she wasnt out walking the street alone for 30mins.
The real bummer is that the taxi that couldn't find her drove around to CBV & waited a few minutes for a fare then ended up taking SS's friends home to Monument St Mosman Park. They got there around 2.25am so they were home by the time the screams were heard in the same area by others.
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Girlnextdoor
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I think it was just stubble OES, not a full beard. He didn't grow a beard till 2nd marriage according to Wife 2. IIRC. He was always clean shaven.
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The DNA was on the kimono in the pathwest lab on 19Feb88. They examined it on 01Mar88 but sent nothing off for testing. On 30Mar88 they returned it to cops where it stayed until 16Nov16 when it went back to pathwest & was DNA tested for the 1st time on 23Nov16.
I think that explains why they wouldn't have even considered scraping under someones nail for DNA if they had the evidence that eventually identified him in their lab 8 years prior to him killing anyone & it couldn't help them because they didn't test it. If they took swabs at least in 1988 they would have matched KK when they eventually tested them and put it in the system.
It wasn't being used here that early and when it eventually was, it was so limited that it was probably still years before they even considered scraping under a victims nail.
The kimono DNA & the Huntingdale file gave them the name of their rapist and murderer when it was eventually tested so I doubt considering whether it was stolen by someone else with his semen already on it never entered their minds. We finally got the bastard is all they'd have said.
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It was his first wife that mentioned the beard, it was after she got the horse so around 1992 but yeah it's post the Huntingdale Attack as you said.
BFew
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There is no evidence of BRE having a beard during the Huntingdale attack.
He was described by the victim as having stubble only.
I have heard this before but find it absolutely bizarre that ss's taxi ended up taking her friends home....safely!
Girlnextdoor
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Well here's something I hadn't read before. It was on a website where the JR video had ironically been removed!
"W.A. Police had to justify why it took so long to put this evidence before the public, and why it was an exclusive on a commercial television channel. At the time of the announcement, the Sunday Times of Perth indignantly asked to be given the footage immediately, and were refused. They also asked if there was a deal: “Det-Sgt Stanbury denied that Foxtel, the Crime Investigation Network or producers Graham McNiece Productions had a contractual deal with WA Police for an exclusive story”. BBM
truecrimenewsweekly.com
"W.A. Police had to justify why it took so long to put this evidence before the public, and why it was an exclusive on a commercial television channel. At the time of the announcement, the Sunday Times of Perth indignantly asked to be given the footage immediately, and were refused. They also asked if there was a deal: “Det-Sgt Stanbury denied that Foxtel, the Crime Investigation Network or producers Graham McNiece Productions had a contractual deal with WA Police for an exclusive story”. BBM
JUSTICE STILL AWAITS! The many investigations & suspects of the Claremont Serial Killings as Bradley Robert Edwards to face trial this year
IN DEPTH: 2019 may be the year the Claremont Serial Killings are finally solved, with prime suspect, Bradley Robert Edwards, to face trial in May. Therese Taylor, takes an in-depth look at all the …
truecrimenewsweekly.com
Girlnextdoor
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Didn't know Justice Hall's background, interesting career he's had dealing with all sorts of crooks!
thewest.com.au
A Judge alone: The man who decides Claremont fate
In the mid-2000s Justice Stephen Hall was in the thick of one of the biggest scandals in WA’s political history. Just over a decade on from that tumultuous period, he is about to enter another one.
thewest.com.au
Girlnextdoor
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Well here's something I hadn't read before. It was on a website where the JR video had ironically been removed!
"W.A. Police had to justify why it took so long to put this evidence before the public, and why it was an exclusive on a commercial television channel. At the time of the announcement, the Sunday Times of Perth indignantly asked to be given the footage immediately, and were refused. They also asked if there was a deal: “Det-Sgt Stanbury denied that Foxtel, the Crime Investigation Network or producers Graham McNiece Productions had a contractual deal with WA Police for an exclusive story”. BBM
JUSTICE STILL AWAITS! The many investigations & suspects of the Claremont Serial Killings as Bradley Robert Edwards to face trial this year
IN DEPTH: 2019 may be the year the Claremont Serial Killings are finally solved, with prime suspect, Bradley Robert Edwards, to face trial in May. Therese Taylor, takes an in-depth look at all the …
And this:
"On 16 August 2008 Nicole Cox and Todd Cardy of Perth Now reported “Police defiant on release of Claremont CCTV video”.
"They said WA police refuse to immediately release surveillance footage in the hunt for the Claremont serial killer, despite conceding it could help solve the murder mystery. WA Police admit they are delaying the release of the security vision to ``maximise'' publicity by co-ordinating local media coverage to coincide with a pay-TV crime program on the 12-year-old serial killings. But police could offer little explanation as to why they hadn't released the vision earlier. The Crime Investigation Australia episode is due to air on Foxtel on August 28.
Police told The Sunday Times in June that the documentary would contain no new information. ``There are no new leads . . . No new persons of interest - nothing like that. It is just re-presenting the case,'' a police spokeswoman said at the time. But promotional blurb for the program Hunt for a Killer: The Claremont Murders this week plugged it as a special edition with ``new information, never before released to the public''.
"renowned forensic expert Robin Napper and Liberal leader Colin Barnett. 'Who's running this investigation - the commercial TV company or the West Australian Police"
"Premier Alan Carpenter said he would seek an explanation from WA Police as to why it took so long for the vision to be made public."
Presenting Graham McNeice!
"In 2005, he was commissioned by the newly established Foxtel ‘Crime Investigations Channel’ (CI) to develop and produce a documentary series on true Australian crime.
The 36 Episodes of ‘Crime Investigation Australia’, hosted by Steve Liebman, set new boundaries in the way this style of investigative documentary making is produced in this country. Its cutting edge presentation, including graphic reenactments of gruesome crimes such as: ‘The Anita Cobby Murder’, ‘The Backpacker Murders’ and ‘The Snowtown Bodies in the Barrels’ made it a huge success on Foxtel and, a ratings winner on the Nine Network."
Graham McNeice | Astra: Subscription Television Australia
www.astra.org.au
BFew
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The disability allowance was discussed in the trial thread #1 after having come up in the West's 4 Dec 2019 Live Blog (see post #8174)
I'd forgotten that it was reported (rightly or wrongly) that the Telstra Payroll Manager told the court that disability allowances were paid by Telstra when people were under 'adverse conditions', and that periods/dates that Telstra records showed BRE was paid disability allowances, including 1992 and September 1995.
Claremont serial killer trial live blog - day 8
The West Australian is back live blogging the trial of the alleged Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards
'The court is now being shown documents that show when Mr Edwards was paid overtime, meal allowances and disability allowances between February and September 1995.
Mr Edwards r*ped the 17-year-old girl at Karrakatta cemetery on February 12, 1995. On February 11, Mr Edwards was paid two lots of overtime.
The court was also told Mr Edwards was paid disability allowance on September 7, 1995.'
Mr Vomero said staff were paid a disability allowance when people were under adverse conditions.'
'In the February 1996 payslip it showed Mr Edwards claimed two allowances on January 25, 1996 - the day before Australia Day and before Sarah Spiers went missing.
In the March 1996 payslip it showed he claimed an allowance for working a Sunday, a non-rostered shift.'
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BFew
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Not sure that BRE working overtime on the evening of the night of the Rowe Park / Karrakatta offences was discussed in here when it first came up at the CSK trial on 4 Dec 2019, and was reported by both the WAtoday and the West's live blogs that day.
www.watoday.com.au
'Mr Edwards worked overtime before abducting, raping teen that same night'
'On February 11, 1995, Mr Edwards was paid for two lots of overtime.'
Maybe this overtime was worked earlier than 11 Feb 1995 and not worked and paid on the same date. A timing issue with overtime that was discussed during the trial. And the live blog jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Claremont killer trial LIVE: 'She looked like she was waiting for someone': Witness on night Sarah vanished
Day 8 of the trial of accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Edwards is expected to hear further evidence from women who the state claims received lifts from a man in a Telstra vehicle around the same period as when Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon went missing.
'On February 11, 1995, Mr Edwards was paid for two lots of overtime.'
Maybe this overtime was worked earlier than 11 Feb 1995 and not worked and paid on the same date. A timing issue with overtime that was discussed during the trial. And the live blog jumped to the wrong conclusion.
Girlnextdoor
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I find this odd, or is it just me? Why was the Bankwest ATM info supplied Item 517 in the court exhibits for periods outside the murder nights?
SS 27th Jan, 1996
JR 9th June 1996
CG 15th March, 1997
Why weren't ANY of these dates included, or even the months the murders occurred? I realise the Bayview Tce ones on 5/12/1996 establish that BRE had visited and knew the area prior to CG murder (as he had lied and said he didn't know it), but surely the months of the murders would be crucial to see if he WAS there or close by on the nights/early morning after?
SS 27th Jan, 1996
JR 9th June 1996
CG 15th March, 1997
Why weren't ANY of these dates included, or even the months the murders occurred? I realise the Bayview Tce ones on 5/12/1996 establish that BRE had visited and knew the area prior to CG murder (as he had lied and said he didn't know it), but surely the months of the murders would be crucial to see if he WAS there or close by on the nights/early morning after?
Girlnextdoor
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Had to take a screenshot of this. A very interesting article with a photo of Jane and her dear friend who now lives in San Francisco.
This caught my eye, Terry Dobson the Detective that handled the Huntingdale break in and attack talks of using dogs to track where the kimono came from.
www.magzter.com
This caught my eye, Terry Dobson the Detective that handled the Huntingdale break in and attack talks of using dogs to track where the kimono came from.
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