Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates pt4 - Beyond the Verdict

[Kurve]

Here is
- Claremont Murders - Part One and Part Two and Part 3
- Media
- The Bunker

• Hey Bret? Stalking Claremont the book.
• Justice Hall's Decision 619 pgs

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Have you read the comments on how i've been treated ? We all think the same as far as more possible victims, thats what i have presented here for all to see, but most want to bag the * out of it.

Over the many years that i've been following this thread there have been many theories put forward, some have proven to have aspects of merit and many are way off so its quite normal to be faced with scepticism when presenting another angle, dont be offended if people dont buy in instantly.

I think youre on the right track with perhaps some slight misinterpretation with the data applied.

 

[CaseyJones]

Another thing to consider if applying a calendar wheel to his possible pattern is leap years which may effect events in 88, 92, 96 2000 etc.
Could that explain the '1 day out'?

Something else worth considering is that its not always about the previous victim as I believe the 15/3 with the calendar wheel on the GPO points towards what looks like a vehicle access ramp to the beach just south of the Cottesloe groyne where JC 's car was found, if that ramp was there in 88 could this point to where it actually entered the water?

The first question is a good point, i'll let you know if it lines up.
With the 15/3, i cant say for sure, though i really dont think so, will have a look though, cheers. I do have a leap year calendar made up, and have delved with it, but probably not serious enough.

 

[CaseyJones]

Thanks. I had SS as further out east but it was essentially a guess with nothing but a vague kind of pattern and is probably totally wrong, I'm stuck on it though and I also can't explain why. It's just a vibe.

I come from Victoria but was in the Kimberley recently and through a series of unfortunate surprise events, found I had to travel in to Perth. Driving long hours and in the zone, some places barely register but at one point and in the strangest coincidence, it did and I realised I was there, exactly where I think a thing of significance is and only about 900m off to where I've thought Sarah might be.

Low key wasn't possible in what I was driving, so I only did a couple of loops before someone rang the police, I took in the lay of the land and formed a plan to get another car that blended in from somewhere and go back at dawn.

It didn't work out because time was too tight. I know it's absurd and that logically, I'm not going to find a thing but it doesn't hurt anybody to look and then I can say to myself, that as silly as it might seem, at least 'I followed through and had a go'.

I can relate to that for sure, having done simillar things and macro have had to put up with some stupid suggestions i provided, way before i finalised this pattern. The position given for ferndale is what the pattern is indicating, not me. You never know, your instinct could provide a twist.

 

[BonzaRam]

Without the 22nd and the 14th, there would be no pattern, thats pretty obvious.

Thank you for admitting that. To prove that the pattern works you need to prove those two crimes do actually belong to BRE, as opposed to just saying they are BRE crimes because they fit the pattern, and that is what I have been saying all along.

The fact they fitted your pattern gave reason to look into the possibility of them crimes being BRE's. I did that way back at start when you first mentioned them and sorry but the current alleged perps are a better fit to them crimes based the evidence available for them crimes than BRE is.
Geez I have even looked for other crimes that may also fit your pattern, why have I done that? because if your pattern works then it may aid in solving not just where SS may be but also other crimes.

What i haven't looked into is possible wrongful convictions for crimes that may fit your pattern. I'll leave that you because as it stands right now IMO your pattern is broken because of two crimes you include without any proof of BRE involvement. Yes you have speculated on possible (but not probable) things BRE may have done to be involved in them crimes but speculation is not proof.

If you feel I am just bagging your pattern without following up your claims you are wrong.

 

[CaseyJones]

Over the many years that i've been following this thread there have been many theories put forward, some have proven to have aspects of merit and many are way off so its quite normal to be faced with scepticism when presenting another angle, dont be offended if people dont buy in instantly.

I think youre on the right track with perhaps some slight misinterpretation with the data applied.

I agree and the way i've presented it has raised many questions. I'm learning.

 

[CaseyJones]

Thank you for admitting that. To prove that the pattern works you need to prove those two crimes do actually belong to BRE, as opposed to just saying they are BRE crimes because they fit the pattern, and that is what I have been saying all along.

The fact they fitted your pattern gave reason to look into the possibility of them crimes being BRE's. I did that way back at start when you first mentioned them and sorry but the current alleged perps are a better fit to them crimes based the evidence available for them crimes than BRE is.
Geez I have even looked for other crimes that may also fit your pattern, why have I done that? because if your pattern works then it may aid in solving not just where SS may be but also other crimes.

What i haven't looked into is possible wrongful convictions for crimes that may fit your pattern. I'll leave that you because as it stands right now IMO your pattern is broken because of two crimes you include without any proof of BRE involvement. Yes you have speculated on possible (but not probable) things BRE may have done to be involved in them crimes but speculation is not proof.

If you feel I am just bagging your pattern without following up your claims you are wrong.

I understand your point, thats a fair summary.
Without including those dates i would never have gone forward. So its gone forward to the point where i knew the direction to his house, still a way to go yet.
Another point not included in the video, having the circle on JR and 27 pointing to ferndale.If you rotate the circle thirteen days to the right, so that 14 points to ferndale, 27 will now point up to his house. I have not worked out why that is.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

Thank you for admitting that. To prove that the pattern works you need to prove those two crimes do actually belong to BRE, as opposed to just saying they are BRE crimes because they fit the pattern, and that is what I have been saying all along.

The fact they fitted your pattern gave reason to look into the possibility of them crimes being BRE's. I did that way back at start when you first mentioned them and sorry but the current alleged perps are a better fit to them crimes based the evidence available for them crimes than BRE is.
Geez I have even looked for other crimes that may also fit your pattern, why have I done that? because if your pattern works then it may aid in solving not just where SS may be but also other crimes.

What i haven't looked into is possible wrongful convictions for crimes that may fit your pattern. I'll leave that you because as it stands right now IMO your pattern is broken because of two crimes you include without any proof of BRE involvement. Yes you have speculated on possible (but not probable) things BRE may have done to be involved in them crimes but speculation is not proof.

If you feel I am just bagging your pattern without following up your claims you are wrong.

Interestingly, i have read that the naval gaurd who witnessed Dorrough arrive with Sara Lee Davey said 2 taxi's arrived during the timeframe, one obviously contained Dorrough and Davey but I cant recall what the business of the second cab was.
Considering SS, JR and CG we're apparently waiting for taxi's, the reference to taxi's being present at the SLD disappearance shouldn't be overlooked imo.

Could SLD have entered a car masquerading as a taxi as SS is believed to have done.
Was BRE using his Telstra vehicle with 'T' branding to appear as though a taxi

 

[BonzaRam]

Interestingly, i have read that the naval gaurd who witnessed Dorrough arrive with Sara Lee Davey said 2 taxi's arrived during the timeframe, one obviously contained Dorrough and Davey but I cant recall what the business of the second cab was.
Considering SS, JR and CG we're apparently waiting for taxi's, the reference to taxi's being present at the SLD disappearance shouldn't be overlooked imo.

Could SLD have entered a car masquerading as a taxi as SS is believed to have done.
Was BRE using his Telstra vehicle with 'T' branding to appear as though a taxi

It was a Mr Jones, one of the fisherman in the group of four, that were on the wharf that night that stated he saw two taxis arrive that night. There is no mention of what time the other taxi arrived or who was seen getting into or out of it. His story changed, he told police in his 1st interview that he didn't hear a splash but he told the other fisherman he did hear a splash and in his 2nd interview with police he said that he went and looked for what might have caused the splash, a splash he didn't hear? or did hear? which is it? How many taxis did he really see?

Also the Naval Guard (Mr Fraser) on watch that night stated

44. Mr Fraser said that, apart from the area behind the shed,
he had a clear view of the wharf and that he did not see the
deceased leave before the end of his watch at 4.00 am.
On 4 February 1997, Mr Fraser told a Northern Territory
Detective that he had not seen the deceased leave and that
he had been looking for her.

and

45. In oral evidence M Fraser said that he could say with
absolute certainty that, for that time when Mr Dorrough
went to the end of the wharf until sometime after he got
back to the boat, he did not see the deceased leave the
wharf. He said that the noise of generators running on the
HMAS Geelong could have affected his ability to hear the
screams described by the fisherman, Mr Jones, and his
friend.

What would cause someone to scratch their own face?

9. A short time later, Mr Dorrough returned to the HMAS
Geelong alone. He told Mr Fraser that the deceased would
not have sex with him and that she had left, but Mr Fraser
had been watching the wharf and had not seen her leave.
Mr Fraser noticed that Mr Dorrough had scratches on his
face that had not been there when he got out of the taxi.

 

[CaseyJones]

It was a Mr Jones, one of the fisherman in the group of four, that were on the wharf that night that stated he saw two taxis arrive that night. There is no mention of what time the other taxi arrived or who was seen getting into or out of it. His story changed, he told police in his 1st interview that he didn't hear a splash but he told the other fisherman he did hear a splash and in his 2nd interview with police he said that he went and looked for what might have caused the splash, a splash he didn't hear? or did hear? which is it? How many taxis did he really see?

Also the Naval Guard (Mr Fraser) on watch that night stated

44. Mr Fraser said that, apart from the area behind the shed,
he had a clear view of the wharf and that he did not see the
deceased leave before the end of his watch at 4.00 am.
On 4 February 1997, Mr Fraser told a Northern Territory
Detective that he had not seen the deceased leave and that
he had been looking for her.

and

45. In oral evidence M Fraser said that he could say with
absolute certainty that, for that time when Mr Dorrough
went to the end of the wharf until sometime after he got
back to the boat, he did not see the deceased leave the
wharf. He said that the noise of generators running on the
HMAS Geelong could have affected his ability to hear the
screams described by the fisherman, Mr Jones, and his
friend.

What would cause someone to scratch their own face?

9. A short time later, Mr Dorrough returned to the HMAS
Geelong alone. He told Mr Fraser that the deceased would
not have sex with him and that she had left, but Mr Fraser
had been watching the wharf and had not seen her leave.
Mr Fraser noticed that Mr Dorrough had scratches on his
face that had not been there when he got out of the taxi.

I had'nt seen this before. Good info. As you say, what is mr jones actual account, you would think he'd clearly remember a detail like that. Mr frasers account seems honest.

 

[CaseyJones]

Speculating that 'IF' BRE was in broome during that period, and if the pattern theory was in play, once a body is found, the date is given by the pattern for the next victim.
So he has to get a victim on that date, for the pattern to remain true and correct. If he was assigned to a temporary job in broome, he takes one from there. Speculation again that if TE was there at that time, he could have just been holidaying there with TE.
Speculation only peoples.

 

[PenfoldsFan]

It was a Mr Jones, one of the fisherman in the group of four, that were on the wharf that night that stated he saw two taxis arrive that night. There is no mention of what time the other taxi arrived or who was seen getting into or out of it. His story changed, he told police in his 1st interview that he didn't hear a splash but he told the other fisherman he did hear a splash and in his 2nd interview with police he said that he went and looked for what might have caused the splash, a splash he didn't hear? or did hear? which is it? How many taxis did he really see?

Also the Naval Guard (Mr Fraser) on watch that night stated

44. Mr Fraser said that, apart from the area behind the shed,
he had a clear view of the wharf and that he did not see the
deceased leave before the end of his watch at 4.00 am.
On 4 February 1997, Mr Fraser told a Northern Territory
Detective that he had not seen the deceased leave and that
he had been looking for her.

and

45. In oral evidence M Fraser said that he could say with
absolute certainty that, for that time when Mr Dorrough
went to the end of the wharf until sometime after he got
back to the boat, he did not see the deceased leave the
wharf. He said that the noise of generators running on the
HMAS Geelong could have affected his ability to hear the
screams described by the fisherman, Mr Jones, and his
friend.

What would cause someone to scratch their own face?

9. A short time later, Mr Dorrough returned to the HMAS
Geelong alone. He told Mr Fraser that the deceased would
not have sex with him and that she had left, but Mr Fraser
had been watching the wharf and had not seen her leave.
Mr Fraser noticed that Mr Dorrough had scratches on his
face that had not been there when he got out of the taxi.

Thanks for the clarification, I knew I remembered reading about the two taxi's.
I dont think you can rule out there being two taxi's just because he gave different accounts of the splash, the point is, there was possibly an unaccounted-for taxi in the vicinity of another missing woman.
Dorrough may have had scratches as there may have indeed been a struggle between himself and SLD, that doesn't prove he is responsible for her disappearance.
It would be extremely risky to murder a woman you've just shared a taxi with, fronted up to a guard with and admitted you tried to have sex with to which she refused. Especially if you then just dropped her in the water next to your vessel.

What we do know is BRE had a connection to Broome, he killed young women and those women we're in the process of seeking a taxi.

 

[Kurve]

Speculating that 'IF' BRE was in broome during that period, and if the pattern theory was in play, once a body is found, the date is given by the pattern for the next victim.
So he has to get a victim on that date, for the pattern to remain true and correct.

Hang on. Are you suggesting a date pattern and a geographical pattern?

What if the date for the next victim falls on a Monday when most of the clubs are closed and nobody's around? No guarantees he'd find one regardless though.

 

[BFew]

Hey all you date gurus.
Don't forget to account for the extra day every 4 years.

Leap years in the last 40 years, when February has/had 29 days (instead of 28) are
2024, 2020, 2016, 2012, 2008, 2004, 2000, 1996, 1992, 1988, 1982

 

[CaseyJones]

Hang on. Are you suggesting a date pattern and a geographical pattern?

What if the date for the next victim falls on a Monday when most of the clubs are closed and nobody's around? No guarantees he'd find one regardless though.

Not a geographical one, just saying that if he has to take a victim on the date dictated by the pattern and he happens to be in broome at the time, i suppose he's going to do it. Yeh, if its a monday or any other day, it would'nt be easy.

 

[CaseyJones]

Lets pretend that right now its the year 1997. Pretend that CG was found yesterday and we learn exactly where. I look on the pattern with the circle on the GPO. You see that the 22nd of june is pointing to her, knowing that each date points to the previous victim. Instanlty you know that the next will go missing on the 22nd of june, just that it has'nt happened yet, because today is still only the day after CG was found. So what happens when the 22nd of june occurs, as we well know, peta webber goes missing.

 

[CaseyJones]

I am stepping away for a while. There are some good points raised by bonza ram and a couple of others, so more research is needed.
Hoping some here can suggest ideas to go forward, any correspondence maybe go thru kurve and he can email me ?

 

[Kurve]

I am stepping away for a while. There are some good points raised by bonza ram and a couple of others, so more research is needed.
Hoping some here can suggest ideas to go forward, any correspondence maybe go thru kurve and he can email me ?

Just keep your private messaging open and check back in every now and again

For the record, I do think he used somewhat of a pattern. He'd need to remember exactly where they were for one reason.

 

[BonzaRam]

I am stepping away for a while. There are some good points raised by bonza ram and a couple of others, so more research is needed.
Hoping some here can suggest ideas to go forward, any correspondence maybe go thru kurve and he can email me ?

I went back thru court transcripts to see if there was a trigger event in his life for the 14th Jan 97... and there was, that was when his girlfriend at the time, referred to as CH in the transcripts broke off the relationship with him so that does fit the pattern of his triggers and does add credence to the date of SLDs disappearance matching a bit more.

"CH continued to see the accused over a period of time until late 1996
or early 1997; she can recall this because she met her former husband a
couple of weeks before 3 November 1996. She stopped seeing the
accused when she relocated not long after Christmas and did not give the
accused her new phone number."

But there are also a few Telstra Living Witnesses statements/sightings at or around that date also. The 14th also falls in the middle of when his parents returned from OS on the 12th and departed again on the 19th.

 

[jason_recliner]

If we believe what we read, the common belief is that he stopped at CG. That has been said for years. Basically, we are believing what the police have said. They really had no idea when he stopped, they did'nt know anything other than there have been more women gone missing since CG. The police have to look good in the public eye, they will not have you believe that there were more victims, their public relations pro's will make them look in control at all times.

Quite the opposite. Police will inform the public if there's a chance they're in danger, even if it's only a small chance.

 

[CaseyJones]

Back already, does anyone have any info on how long TE has been in, or moved to broome please.

 

[CaseyJones]

I went back thru court transcripts to see if there was a trigger event in his life for the 14th Jan 97... and there was, that was when his girlfriend at the time, referred to as CH in the transcripts broke off the relationship with him so that does fit the pattern of his triggers and does add credence to the date of SLDs disappearance matching a bit more.

"CH continued to see the accused over a period of time until late 1996
or early 1997; she can recall this because she met her former husband a
couple of weeks before 3 November 1996. She stopped seeing the
accused when she relocated not long after Christmas and did not give the
accused her new phone number."

But there are also a few Telstra Living Witnesses statements/sightings at or around that date also. The 14th also falls in the middle of when his parents returned from OS on the 12th and departed again on the 19th.

Regarding Telstra Living Witnesses, are they talking of sightings around the 14th jan 97 ? Do you know where the sightings were, that they refer to ?

 

[Wombot]

Just keep your private messaging open and check back in every now and again

For the record, I do think he used somewhat of a pattern. He'd need to remember exactly where they were for one reason.

Why is that? Plus it wouldn’t be difficult to remember where they were considering that there weren’t exactly dozens of them, if you mean victims.

 

[Kurve]

Why is that? Plus it wouldn’t be difficult to remember where they were considering that there weren’t exactly dozens of them, if you mean victims.

How do you know how many there are?

Unless he knew exactly where he was going and pre-planned his dump sites he's driving around in rural areas doing several turns off main roads in the small hours of the morning, some of those roads might not even have street signs on them.

He needs to know exactly where they are to monitor activity in that area, he might need to go back for some reason, it also helps fuel his control fantasies.

 

[BonzaRam]

Regarding Telstra Living Witnesses, are they talking of sightings around the 14th jan 97 ? Do you know where the sightings were, that they refer to ?

The Telstra Living Witnesses were recollections from people who were picked up and given a lift by a strange male in Claremont and had experienced an odd encounter. They are not that accurate with dates, It's like... it happened around dec 96 to january 97, or it was in such an such a month. Ya have to remember they were remembering back over 20+ years.

The Judge didn't give much weight in the TLW project because of the lack of details.

Don't forget there is also this appointment:

322 In 1997 John Philpott was a consultant physician working at
Sir Charles Gairdner Hospital in the Department of Pulmonary Physiology
and Sleep medicine. The accused saw Dr Philpott on two occasions: first
on 8 January 1997 for a consultation...

Certainly a busy month for him.

 

[javaguice]

How do you know how many there are?

Unless he knew exactly where he was going and pre-planned his dump sites he's driving around in rural areas doing several turns off main roads in the small hours of the morning, some of those roads might not even have street signs on them.

He needs to know exactly where they are to monitor activity in that area, he might need to go back for some reason, it also helps fuel his control fantasies.

Aren't they all near telstra exchange buildings... meaning he's familiar with the areas from his work duties?