List Mgmt. COLLINGWOOD Trade and F/A Discussion

[RobJD]

I understand where you';re coming from. I just don't think we would take a KF with our first pick. With high picks you need to take sure fire players and unfortunately, Key Forwards always come with an element of risk. I can't help thinking that we have already settled on our Key Forwards going forward. An elite midfielder would be sure bet and as I said before, the midfielders in the top 10 this year will be as good as next years crop and you can get a full years development in them. It's a no brainer for me but some might say I have no brain anyway

Recruiting KF must be the hardest of all positions to get right - high risk of failure, but also high reward. Seems to me that the Pies tend to go for the mid just about every-time - can't think of a quality KF that we drafted on merit (that excludes Travis Cloke)

 

[sr36]

Recruiting KF must be the hardest of all positions to get right - high risk of failure, but also high reward. Seems to me that the Pies tend to go for the mid just about every-time - can't think of a quality KF that we drafted on merit (that excludes Travis Cloke)

I don't think the reward is anywhere near as great as it used to be with the role becoming as much about creating a contest and bringing it to ground, as it is about clunking marks and kicking goals. Clubs have adjusted though and not very many go in the top 10 anymore, so they're not as expensive at the draft as they used to be

 

[manicpie]

Recruiting KF must be the hardest of all positions to get right - high risk of failure, but also high reward. Seems to me that the Pies tend to go for the mid just about every-time - can't think of a quality KF that we drafted on merit (that excludes Travis Cloke)

It seems to be a problem area for our list managers. I can understand the ambivalence for recruiters because if you do get a really good KF they can tend to demand too much of the ball and become the sole focus for players pumping the ball inside 50. I really believe that the next few years we will see the good teams have 3 small forwards who are quick, can apply pressure and can hit the scoreboard, think Melbourne this year. Clubs are a bit weary of having a completely dominant FF, hasn't worked for Geelong because they don't have the small forwards I talked about

 

[Gone Critical]

Recruiting KF must be the hardest of all positions to get right - high risk of failure, but also high reward. Seems to me that the Pies tend to go for the mid just about every-time - can't think of a quality KF that we drafted on merit (that excludes Travis Cloke)

Ben Reid at pick 8 was probably the last. he came to the club as a forward and played his 1st games there.

 

[TradeDraft]

You are familiar with Kreuger’s background in the system aren’t you? He was a forward thrown back out of necessity with Geelong having Hawkins, Cameron, De Koning and Ratugolea ahead of him. Johnson is just as likely as a defender in our mix if he can’t get a gig in our forward line (I like him as a long term Howe replacement).

Reading between the lines I feel like you aren’t keen on a speculative tall being a first choice KPF having never played at senior level as a forward? In the search for common ground that’s a point I can agree with because it makes me uncomfortable, but in a rebuild it’s a path that needs to be explored because there are no consequences to getting it wrong whereas throwing a guy back after he’s spent a pre-season forward has consequences, IMO.

He is also a perfect fit for our mix with his mobility and size while the ball is zinging around a bit early season. Once we get into late May/ June when the grounds get heavier he’ll drop off so it’s important to get an early look at him.

Why would Kreuger be pretty Crap on a Wet Deck?

As seems Very Atheltic

 

[whiskeytown]

Recruiting KF must be the hardest of all positions to get right - high risk of failure, but also high reward. Seems to me that the Pies tend to go for the mid just about every-time - can't think of a quality KF that we drafted on merit (that excludes Travis Cloke)

We partly haven’t had the top end picks to nab a McKay, Naughton or B King... where they were taken in the draft

But additionally, it seems Hine and Bucks weren’t big on spending 1st rd picks on KPP... preferring to take players later in the draft or as rookies and then try and mould them

 

[RobJD]

Ben Reid at pick 8 was probably the last. he came to the club as a forward and played his 1st games there.

I don't count Ben as he made his name as a back and not a forward - there's a bit on that in an earlier thread where I believe that the Pies have a tendency to push candidate key forwards into a key back position too early.

 

[RobJD]

We partly haven’t had the top end picks to nab a McKay, Naughton or B King... where they were taken in the draft

But additionally, it seems Hine and Bucks weren’t big on spending 1st rd picks on KPP... preferring to take players later in the draft or as rookies and then try and mould them

I'd go back even further - in the history of the National Draft - I can't think of a KF that we've taken and developed into a quality Key Forward

 

[RobJD]

It seems to be a problem area for our list managers. I can understand the ambivalence for recruiters because if you do get a really good KF they can tend to demand too much of the ball and become the sole focus for players pumping the ball inside 50. I really believe that the next few years we will see the good teams have 3 small forwards who are quick, can apply pressure and can hit the scoreboard, think Melbourne this year. Clubs are a bit weary of having a completely dominant FF, hasn't worked for Geelong because they don't have the small forwards I talked about

I'd bet that most coaches who had the Cats forward line would move the ball a lot differently than the way the Cats do

 

[sr36]

It seems to be a problem area for our list managers. I can understand the ambivalence for recruiters because if you do get a really good KF they can tend to demand too much of the ball and become the sole focus for players pumping the ball inside 50. I really believe that the next few years we will see the good teams have 3 small forwards who are quick, can apply pressure and can hit the scoreboard, think Melbourne this year. Clubs are a bit weary of having a completely dominant FF, hasn't worked for Geelong because they don't have the small forwards I talked about

The Dees had one KPF drafted at 53 and another who was skipped over all together a few times before being drafted as a mature ager. In the preseason before their flag - both of those players were available for small trade costs if clubs could fit in their salary.

Tiges had one KPF drafted in the teens 15 years ago and another they traded in.

Hawks definitely benefitted from taking a couple of KPFs early.

Cats had a bargain basement trade in in Mooney - Hawkins only played a brief cameo in the final game of their period of dominance and was a father son.

Drafting your own KPFs and reaping the benefits from it worked for the Hawks, but it hasn't worked for other teams. A heap of early picks have been blown for zero reward- even the Hawks blew a couple of pick 6s on Thorp and Dowler.

 

[RobJD]

The Dees had one KPF drafted at 53 and another who was skipped over all together a few times before being drafted as a mature ager. In the preseason before their flag - both of those players were available for small trade costs if clubs could fit in their salary.

Tiges had one KPF drafted in the teens 15 years ago and another they traded in.

Hawks definitely benefitted from taking a couple of KPFs early.

Cats had a bargain basement trade in in Mooney - Hawkins only played a brief cameo in the final game of their period of dominance and was a father son.

Drafting your own KPFs and reaping the benefits from it worked for the Hawks, but it hasn't worked for other teams. A heap of early picks have been blown for zero reward- even the Hawks blew a couple of pick 6s on Thorp and Dowler.

Worked OK for the Eagles!

 

[sr36]

Worked OK for the Eagles!

They traded in Kennedy. Darling went pick 25. Didn't use high picks in the draft to draft their own KPF

 

[sr36]

You are familiar with Kreuger’s background in the system aren’t you? He was a forward thrown back out of necessity with Geelong having Hawkins, Cameron, De Koning and Ratugolea ahead of him. Johnson is just as likely as a defender in our mix if he can’t get a gig in our forward line (I like him as a long term Howe replacement).

Reading between the lines I feel like you aren’t keen on a speculative tall being a first choice KPF having never played at senior level as a forward? In the search for common ground that’s a point I can agree with because it makes me uncomfortable, but in a rebuild it’s a path that needs to be explored because there are no consequences to getting it wrong whereas throwing a guy back after he’s spent a pre-season forward has consequences, IMO.

He is also a perfect fit for our mix with his mobility and size while the ball is zinging around a bit early season. Once we get into late May/ June when the grounds get heavier he’ll drop off so it’s important to get an early look at him.

I'm leaning towards GC in that we'd have to be a pretty shit club if we are locked in to giving Kreuger a game round 1 regardless of how well he and others perform in preseason.

 

[RobJD]

They traded in Kennedy. Darling went pick 25. Didn't use high picks in the draft to draft their own KPF

Allen? - went at Pick 21. Other than possibly Dawes (reckon he was a serviceable forward more than a quality forward) - can you nominate anyone else?

 

[cityslick1]

Yeah most likely but say the circumstance where he is doing ok but Kelly has edged ahead and gets the nod for the 3rd KPF spot. Next week Roughie is injured, Keane out of form and Kreuger is the best option to take Roughies place. He isn’t going to say I won’t play cause it’s not forward.

I am not saying it’s not likely he plays forward, that’s the 1st option whether VFL or AFL. But if a backline spot jumps up and becomes his 1st option he would jump at it. Playing AFL games has to be his 1st wish

Think Kelly has a long way to go just to stay on an AFL list. Struggling in the seconds as a defender, after a few years in the system. Which is his best position imo.
Would love to be wrong, but is projecting more like Brayden Shaw than Heath Shaw atm.

 

[manicpie]

Worked OK for the Eagles!

The eagles were smart enough to have 2 gun small forwards which makes a huge difference

 

[manicpie]

I'd bet that most coaches who had the Cats forward line would move the ball a lot differently than the way the Cats do

They have no chaos at the drop of the ball inside 50, that's why they are considering Stengle and the like

 

[RobJD]

Think Kelly has a long way to go just to stay on an AFL list. Struggling in the seconds as a defender, after a few years in the system. Which is his best position imo.
Would love to be wrong, but is projecting more like Brayden Shaw than Heath Shaw atm.

Kelly has had a tough few years with injury, he's shown enough to indicate that he could make our best 22, just needs to string a few games together

 

[JuniorB]

I don't count Ben as he made his name as a back and not a forward - there's a bit on that in an earlier thread where I believe that the Pies have a tendency to push candidate key forwards into a key back position too early.

That year we drafted Reid as a forward & Nathan Brown as a back. I guess we thought we were covering both ends in one hit. It was later that Reid came on as a back. Playing him injured in the 2011 GF may have cost us the game.

 

[cityslick1]

I'd go back even further - in the history of the National Draft - I can't think of a KF that we've taken and developed into a quality Key Forward

Travis cloke… and Chris Tarrant. But agree with your sentiment. No one since them

 

[sr36]

Allen? - went at Pick 21. Other than possibly Dawes (reckon he was a serviceable forward more than a quality forward) - can you nominate anyone else?

In terms of the top 10 draft picks of the last 15 years. You're looking at Naughton 9, McKay 10, the King Boys - 4+8 I think. And one of them was drafted as a kpd. Not many early pick success stories and not the very pointy end either and a lot of misses. Maybe last year's will join them, maybe not. But the idea of locking a top 5 pick into a KPF looks a bloody low percentage strategy to me.

 

[RobJD]

Travis cloke… and Chris Tarrant. But agree with your sentiment. No one since them

I wouldn't include Travis as he was a father/son - he, IMO, is a good benchmark for a quality forward. I'd accept Chris Tarrant as the only quality KF the Pies have recruited from the National Draft - that's just one.

 

[RobJD]

In terms of the top 10 draft picks of the last 15 years. You're looking at Naughton 9, McKay 10, the King Boys - 4+8 I think. Not many early pick success stories and not the very pointy end either and a lot of misses. Maybe last year's will join them, maybe not. But the idea of locking a top 5 pick into a KPF looks a bloody low percentage strategy to me.

I'd be happy to get one in the top 50 - our record with the selection of quality KPF at the National Draft is lousy.

 

[JuniorB]

In terms of the top 10 draft picks of the last 15 years. You're looking at Naughton 9, McKay 10, the King Boys - 4+8 I think. Not many early pick success stories and not the very pointy end either and a lot of misses. Maybe last year's will join them, maybe not. But the idea of locking a top 5 pick into a KPF looks a bloody low percentage strategy to me.

We would have grabbed Logan McDonald if he was available last year.

 

[sr36]

We would have grabbed Logan McDonald if he was available last year.

Probably right. Some will come along who are worth it, but they're really rare. You can't go into a draft saying KPF only with early pick, because most years there isn't one who is worthy of a really high pick.