News Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread II

[Heaps of fun]

I think the only way that will happen is if a vaccine doesn't eventuate.

It would take a crazy stupid government in Australia to open up until the vaccine is either available or is shown not to work.

Massive chance there is no vaccine in the near future.

 

[7577969923]

Should put things into perspective.

The government stuffed up the hotel quarantine, but got the required result with their actions afterwards.

It will be up to the next election to see if the public agree that the pain was worth not going through what Europe is now experiencing.

And to think, they are only entering into winter, going to get a lot worse in the Northern Hemisphere before it gets better.

I think the better comparison for us is what NSW and Qld are now experiencing and have experienced over the past 4 months. They are far more relevant benchmarks.

 

[B4Bear]

I think the better comparison for us is what NSW and Qld are now experiencing and have experienced over the past 4 months. They are far more relevant benchmarks.

Did they have a major outbreak that got out of control and suppressed it so quickly no one noticed?

They are not relevant to the point I was making. They are relevant as to how to handle 'Covid Normal', which is where we are now. Not where we were 4 months ago when it went to shit.

 

[Ry009]

I think the better comparison for us is what NSW and Qld are now experiencing and have experienced over the past 4 months. They are far more relevant benchmarks.

This is the ultimate test now, seeing how much more effective contract tracing is now in Victoria.

If they've dropped the ball again, then the last few months will have been for nought.

EDIT: think B4B has addressed his post.

 

[7577969923]

Did they have a major outbreak that got out of control and suppressed it so quickly no one noticed?

They are not relevant to the point I was making. They are relevant as to how to handle 'Covid Normal', which is where we are now. Not where we were 4 months ago when it went to sh*t.

NSW could easily have had a major outbreak over the past 4 months especially early in the Vic 2nd wave. They did an exceptional job of managing an extremely risky situation.

Victoria didn't have any different circumstances to NSW in particular. We just f*#ked it up. NSW is the best reference and comparison point to what our life could have been like over the past 4 months and what our economy could be 4 to 6 months from now. To say that we have somehow been saved from a Europe like situation is nonsense.

 

[DesertRoo]

NSW could easily have had a major outbreak over the past 4 months especially early in the Vic 2nd wave. They did an exceptional job of managing an extremely risky situation.

Victoria didn't have any different circumstances to NSW in particular. We just f*#ked it up. NSW is the best reference and comparison point to what our life could have been like over the past 4 months and what our economy could be 4 to 6 months from now. To say that we have somehow been saved from a Europe like situation is nonsense.

Remote closed boarders Australia compared to open boarders Europe is laughable at best..

that’s even before you add in other factors of sanitation, climate(droplets), food security and supply etc..

The only comparisons Victoria has is against the other states and maybe NZ.

and we failed massively.

 

[B4Bear]

Remote closed boarders Australia compared to open boarders Europe is laughable at best..

that’s even before you add in other factors of sanitation, climate(droplets), food security and supply etc..

The only comparisons Victoria has is against the other states and maybe NZ.

and we failed massively.

I am specifically talking about the suppression techniques used by Andrews and his government. Or are you saying that the peak of 750/day would have abated if they had done nothing?

I am not defending how they got into the situation, but the fact that they painfully suppressed it again. So now we are on par with NSW.

 

[DesertRoo]

I am specifically talking about the suppression techniques used by Andrews and his government. Or are you saying that the peak of 750/day would have abated if they had done nothing?

I am not defending how they got into the situation, but the fact that they painfully suppressed it again. So now we are on par with NSW.

So youre praising the response to a situation of their making?

considering the other states had effectively become covid free, it was Victoria’s only play, they would’ve been shut out of the rest of Australia if they continued on the same trajectory.

But that’s a side issue of comparing the EU to Aus, we have to compare apples to apples here. The EU is in a lot of trouble they’ll have nations go back into full lockdown over the colder months because covid will be much wider spread.

fingers crossed we can get rid of the thing this summer, so we don’t have a 2nd winter to contend with.

 

[7577969923]

I am specifically talking about the suppression techniques used by Andrews and his government. Or are you saying that the peak of 750/day would have abated if they had done nothing?

I am not defending how they got into the situation, but the fact that they painfully suppressed it again. So now we are on par with NSW.

Not at all. I am saying they don't get too much credit for that because the longest and most severe lockdown in the Western world was always going to suppress cases. It was needed and if they had been more decisive in recognising their complete stuff up the first time round and bought it in just two weeks earlier we may have already been 6 weeks plus out of lockdown. The point is we never should have been in this position in the first place.

The bottom line is NSW is absolutely the best comparison for Victoria and we have had 5 times the infections, more than 10 times the fatalities and twice to loss of employment.

 

[B4Bear]

So youre praising the response to a situation of their making?

considering the other states had effectively become covid free, it was Victoria’s only play, they would’ve been shut out of the rest of Australia if they continued on the same trajectory.

But that’s a side issue of comparing the EU to Aus, we have to compare apples to apples here. The EU is in a lot of trouble they’ll have nations go back into full lockdown over the colder months because covid will be much wider spread.

fingers crossed we can get rid of the thing this summer, so we don’t have a 2nd winter to contend with.

Stop making shit up, I never offered praise. And if you go back to my first comment, you will note I said voters would determine if they found the response acceptable.

 

[7577969923]

The DHHS has basically said the latest outbreaks were due to a stuff up in their communications. Seriously, they need to lift their game.

 

[DesertRoo]

Stop making sh*t up, I never offered praise. And if you go back to my first comment, you will note I said voters would determine if they found the response acceptable.

But the discourse doesn’t work.
1. we can’t compare Australia to the EU.
2.We can’t disconnect the initial stuff up from the response.

btw I’m sorry for putting words in your mouth, going back a few posts you’ve acknowledged the government stuff up.

 

[ferball]

Not sure but I hear Crown is keen to of

Mate, I am not making that insinuation about people on the dole and I haven't been clamouring to open up since the first lockdown. I am keen that we open up as soon as is safely possible, in a way that makes sense, and with the concerns of keys stakeholders being taken into consideration. Those things are not happening.

Everybody is going to be different but I stand by my opinion that having $150 per week of a welfare supplement removed that you always knew was temporary is far less of a personal and emotional blow than losing a business that you have worked for years on. That doesn't diminish the idea that the reduction in benefit will make it tougher for people reliant on them.

What p*isses me off is that holding that view is somehow a vicious attack on people on welfare by the moral high ground crowd on here and those same campaigners basically making up my view and then using that as a basis to attack me.

I understand that people losing a business sucks big ****en time believe it or not, even if it's only a few years of work.

But there is a correlation and a good of chance of causation between losing money on Centrelink benefits and increased suicide rates. (As well.)

So I don't think there is as much difference as you and it's mostly because of the desperate circumstances of people on the dole. Before this increase in payment it was $500 to $600 a fortnight.

How the hell does anyone live on that? Isn't the point of social security to stop people committing crimes to survive? I'm sorry if I came across a bit holier than thou but it just seems insane that in 2020 people are expected to live on what was low wages 30+ years ago.

For example ...
You've lost your business last year and now you're losing $150 bucks a week, 40 - 50% of what you live on when you have nothing left and since it all went to shit last year society hadn't functioned in any way that could get you back on your feet.

That isn't me, although it's been a pita since the fires, but is a lot of people in Eastern NSW.

How does that fit with your opinion?

I haven't been clamouring to open up since the first lockdown. I am keen that we open up as soon as is safely possible, in a way that makes sense, and with the concerns of keys stakeholders being taken into consideration. Those things are not happening.

Who are these key stakeholders?

And how do you know it isn't happening? What is your basis for making that judgement?

 

[ferball]

Did they have a major outbreak that got out of control and suppressed it so quickly no one noticed?

They are not relevant to the point I was making. They are relevant as to how to handle 'Covid Normal', which is where we are now. Not where we were 4 months ago when it went to sh*t.

NSW did with the Ruby Princess. That was actually well contained considering how pear shaped things could have gone.

 

[7577969923]

I understand that people losing a business sucks big fu**en time believe it or not, even if it's only a few years of work.

But there is a correlation and a good of chance of causation between losing money on Centrelink benefits and increased suicide rates. (As well.)

So I don't think there is as much difference as you and it's mostly because of the desperate circumstances of people on the dole. Before this increase in payment it was $500 to $600 a fortnight.

How the hell does anyone live on that? Isn't the point of social security to stop people committing crimes to survive? I'm sorry if I came across a bit holier than thou but it just seems insane that in 2020 people are expected to live on what was low wages 30+ years ago.

For example ...
You've lost your business last year and now you're losing $150 bucks a week, 40 - 50% of what you live on when you have nothing left and since it all went to sh*t last year society hadn't functioned in any way that could get you back on your feet.

That isn't me, although it's been a pita since the fires, but is a lot of people in Eastern NSW.

How does that fit with your opinion?



Who are these key stakeholders?

And how do you know it isn't happening? What is your basis for making that judgement?

To be honest I don't want to keep going with this conversation too much but I stand by my view. I would agree that both losing a business and struggling to survive financially have real impacts on mental health and suicide.

I agree 100% that the base level of the dole is too low. In my opinion, the Government should announce that the portion of the temporary increase they have removed is all that they will remove and the current payment will become the new base. They won't have a better chance to do it.

Although some on here dismiss it I believe the business community is a key stakeholder. I know that Andrews hasn't listened to them because they are all saying it. Pretty much every industry body, multiple CEO's etc have come out and said that he hasn't listened and the roadmap is seriously flawed.

 

[ferball]

So youre praising the response to a situation of their making?

considering the other states had effectively become covid free, it was Victoria’s only play, they would’ve been shut out of the rest of Australia if they continued on the same trajectory.

But that’s a side issue of comparing the EU to Aus, we have to compare apples to apples here. The EU is in a lot of trouble they’ll have nations go back into full lockdown over the colder months because covid will be much wider spread.

fingers crossed we can get rid of the thing this summer, so we don’t have a 2nd winter to contend with.

Honestly that bolded bit isn't unreasonable.

The response to the **** up, and the **** up are two different things. There might be things in the Vic response that are excellent and that the rest of us can learn from as well. (Personally doubt it, but similar things happen.)

 

[ferball]

To be honest I don't want to keep going with this conversation too much but I stand by my view. I would agree that both losing a business and struggling to survive financially have real impacts on mental health and suicide.

I agree 100% that the base level of the dole is too low. In my opinion, the Government should announce that the portion of the temporary increase they have removed is all that they will remove and the current payment will become the new base. They won't have a better chance to do it.

Although some on here dismiss it I believe the business community is a key stakeholder. I know that Andrews hasn't listened to them because they are all saying it. Pretty much every industry body, multiple CEO's etc have come out and said that he hasn't listened and the roadmap is seriously flawed.

Fair enough.

The business community is one key stakeholder but their interests aren't necessarily the most important consideration atm. I obviously don't know enough about it but maybe Andrews has listened and decided other priorities outweigh the business communities wishes. I understand he in particular isn't really in a position to be taking high moral ground on judgements but he has other stakeholders too.

Having been in positions where I've made decisions people don't like I've noticed it's easy for people to say someone doesn't listen when you have listened and decided that other things are more important considerations. It even happens when you make the effort to explain very carefully what you have weighed up during your decision process. More so than usual. Although doing that to any degree properly does make people who you have put offside more likely to be accepting of the decision.

I'm not saying that has or hasn't happened with Andrews but if you believe something is more important than the person with power and they don't and act on that belief it is easy to think they haven't listened.

Frankly I'm glad I'm not making these decisions cos they aren't easy.

 

[DesertRoo]

Honestly that bolded bit isn't unreasonable.

The response to the fu** up, and the fu** up are two different things. There might be things in the Vic response that are excellent and that the rest of us can learn from as well. (Personally doubt it, but similar things happen.)

I think I disagree..
Obviously we can learn from the two events,
But we can’t split the cause and the reaction because it’s effectively the same event. Otherwise it’s akin to Stockholm Syndrome. ‘Thank you mr captor for giving me three meals a day’..

#Triggerwarning

 

[7577969923]

Fair enough.

The business community is one key stakeholder but their interests aren't necessarily the most important consideration atm. I obviously don't know enough about it but maybe Andrews has listened and decided other priorities outweigh the business communities wishes. I understand he in particular isn't really in a position to be taking high moral ground on judgements but he has other stakeholders too.

Having been in positions where I've made decisions people don't like I've noticed it's easy for people to say someone doesn't listen when you have listened and decided that other things are more important considerations. It even happens when you make the effort to explain very carefully what you have weighed up during your decision process. More so than usual. Although doing that to any degree properly does make people who you have put offside more likely to be accepting of the decision.

I'm not saying that has or hasn't happened with Andrews but if you believe something is more important than the person with power and they don't and act on that belief it is easy to think they haven't listened.

Frankly I'm glad I'm not making these decisions cos they aren't easy.

I would make the point that there is no way you can develop a roadmap out without considering business. They are the drivers of employment and the economy. It is arrogance in the extreme to dismiss their views and feedback on issues within their domain.

 

[ferball]

I think I disagree..
Obviously we can learn from the two events,
But we can’t split the cause and the reaction because it’s effectively the same event. Otherwise it’s akin to Stockholm Syndrome. ‘Thank you mr captor for giving me three meals a day’..

#Triggerwarning

I'm not thanking him tho. Just letting him finish his job till he can't do it any more. You don't really have another option.

To me the cause is two failures that both seem to be systemic issues in Victorian (DHHS specifically) and Australian politics in general - security contracts and associated corruption, as well as an associated culture of avoiding responsibility which (sorry in advance 7577969923) comes from certain business practises and attitudes. (Not all of them obviously.)

As much as Andrews is responsible he is also, like Trump and Biden, the result of system issues that go beyond party politics. And most of probably agree on that, if we dig down far enough.

That's not Stockholm Syndrome to me tho I often forget you lot are under some pretty serious restrictions on your personal freedoms so I wouldn't really know.

 

[7577969923]

I'm not thanking him tho. Just letting him finish his job till he can't do it any more. You don't really have another option.

To me the cause is two failures that both seem to be systemic issues in Victorian (DHHS specifically) and Australian politics in general - security contracts and associated corruption, as well as an associated culture of avoiding responsibility which (sorry in advance 7577969923) comes from certain business practises and attitudes. (Not all of them obviously.)

As much as Andrews is responsible he is also, like Trump and Biden, the result of system issues that go beyond party politics. And most of probably agree on that, if we dig down far enough.

That's not Stockholm Syndrome to me tho I often forget you lot are under some pretty serious restrictions on your personal freedoms so I wouldn't really know.

I actually think there is far more accountability in most business environments. Unfortunately the keyword there is most not all and there are some egregious examples. I'm not really here to defend the big end of town but every large ASX company demonstrates far more accountability than has been demonstrated by this government. That is not especially difficult given the government has set the bar at zero but if any large ASX company suffered a crisis as big as the one inflicted on Victoria by the government then the CEO, several senior executives, and probably the chairman would have lost their jobs months ago. There is no way they would have been kept around to try and fix things. And there is no way they would have fixated on frontline staff that wasn't given proper training, leadership, or oversight.

 

[ferball]

I would make the point that there is no way you can develop a roadmap out without considering business. They are the drivers of employment and the economy. It is arrogance in the extreme to dismiss their views and feedback on issues within their domain.

He might not be dismissing them just weighing them as les important in the light of other considerations.

For example reopening as these little clusters are happening... I'm thinking of the school and the miscommunication re the third child that was discussed just upthread.

It's different doing that after you've seen a pattern of three or four events like that as opposed to doing so around the time of the first one. You're in a much better position to prevent a third outbreak immediately as the second is controlled and that third outbreak might otherwise cause greater economic problems.

To me an extra week or two before opening up again (and it will be a bit of open slather when that does happen) or even a month is better than the sort stop start thing that happened between the first lockdown and now. Because there will be no benefit to the economy or employment in that situation.

Especially if during that time these minor outbreaks are happening regularly and the Andrews gov is finally getting it's shit together in terms of managing it.

If Andrews isn't confident of preventing that situation (and don't say "get someone who can" cos who is there available to do that?) then he has to hold off. Whether he alone is too incompetent or the situation is beyond anyone's competence is irrelevant, the consequences of a failure may be too serious to take that risk at that point.

In an emergency, which this situation is, even here in NSW still, you respond/rescue then you begin the recovery and restoring of normality. The roadmap out is part of the recovery process. It seems Victoria has not got to that bit yet, at least from the outside.

 

[Themanbun]

He might not be dismissing them just weighing them as les important in the light of other considerations.

He's issued them billions of dollars of grants, both to help them pay the bills and to modify their businesses for safe re-opening. That kind of help was non-existent before this pandemic. It's only 'dismissing them' if you think we should only consider just them.

 

[Smoocher]

Haven’t posted in here for a while due to a few circle jerkers with no idea commenting that Dan was an honest man.

Just wondering if any of the circle jerkers are still defending our honest Premier and his cohorts now.

I mentioned 6 months ago that this DICKtator Dan Government was the most corrupt Govt ever. Have you ever heard as many lies, contradictions and cases of memory loss in your life?

Anyway, an update for those that care about statistics.

Average age of Covid deaths in Australia. 85yo.

Average age of all deaths in Australia. 83 yo.

Of the 3600 health care workers in Victoria that caught Covid a big fat ZERO have died of this highly deadly disease.

Have a great day.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[7577969923]

He's issued them billions of dollars of grants, both to help them pay the bills and to modify their businesses for safe re-opening. That kind of help was non-existent before this pandemic. It's only 'dismissing them' if you think we should only consider just them.

If you think the grants that the Victorian government has provided make a material difference you really don't understand business. Is there any reason that support should have been available before the pandemic? That was kind of a silly statement.
I have never said he should consider only business but it is patently obvious that he doesn't listen to them at all and dismisses their concerns.