Analysis Coronavirus - The Impact IV “Phasing into the New Normal”

[ConcreteWaters]

Trials on children are still being conducted.

Use has been approved in the USA and Canada as well:
COVID-19 vaccines for children younger than 12 years: are we ready? - The Lancet Infectious Diseases

 

[Moose1414]

Not a terribly high bar.

no crackpots.

I like published and peer reviewed papers.

randomised double blind testing.

just science things.


These things were developed to weed out snake oil salesmen - because that was actually a thing before medicine and science in general developed methodologies to try and cull them and instead have a system that has tangible proofs behind what it claims.

All good. Except the person in question is literally the opposite of a snake oil salesman. Would the WHO send a snake oil salesman to Africa to deal with an Ebola outbreak? Would the guy who basically funds the entire pandemic response industry and vaccine development initiatives worldwide make a snake oil salesman a head of global operations? Actually on second thought, don't answer that lol.

Seriously though, think you are barking up the wrong tree in this particular instance. Go after Robert W Malone or Pierre Korry, those two guys might meet your crackpot standard, or at least you could maybe say are selling whatever you consider snake oil. Vanden Bossche was just explaining the concepts pertaining to evolutionary theory in virology, not even sure what he was selling or why it upset a bunch of people but here we are.

 

[Priddis Is Done]

One thing is for sure, there's not many on the fence with this, for or against, and the opinions are very very strong.

 

[Moose1414]

we have vaccinated 4.8% of our population -

View attachment 1167580

Just an aside and not picking you out because of our other back and forth. But does anyone else find this 4% vaccination claim that gets bandied about in the media a bit misleading? There is a mandatory wait between jabs, we haven't had particularly widely available vaccine for all that long, 7 plus million people have had the first jab out of a population of what, 25 million? To me that is pretty much 25% of the population are vaccinated [waiting for second dose or better] which is a far less alarming stat that will only improve as more Pfizer come online. [you know, if your into that kind of thing]

 

[Moose1414]

These premiers are shocking. Rock up to national cabinet and agree to give AZ to everyone, get back home and then start sh*t-canning it.

I think there are legal issues here, just not possible for them to go against the AMA. Quite an odd situation this whole waiver thing, but again legal issue Dr's aren't going to administer a medicine that is not approved. Is what it is, anyone who is really keen on getting AZ now rather than wait for Pfizer has a path if they wish. Seems a pretty sensible approach given the state of affairs not sure why so people want to Gov to turn into propaganda merchants by going against the advice of their own institutional failsafes like TGA and AMA. Of course the way we do things around here is, the experts are wrong because vaccines is good.

 

[Luuuc]

Just an aside and not picking you out because of our other back and forth. But does anyone else find this 4% vaccination claim that gets bandied about in the media a bit misleading? There is a mandatory wait between jabs, we haven't had particularly widely available vaccine for all that long, 7 plus million people have had the first jab out of a population of what, 25 million? To me that is pretty much 25% of the population are vaccinated [waiting for second dose or better] which is a far less alarming stat that will only improve as more Pfizer come online. [you know, if your into that kind of thing]

Whether you sort by Pct. Vaccinated or Pct. Fully Vaccinated, we are still embarrassingly low down the list

Tracking Coronavirus Vaccinations Around the World (Published 2023)

More than 5.55 billion people worldwide have received a Covid-19 vaccine, equal to about 72.3 percent of the world population.

www.nytimes.com

 

[ziad]

One thing is for sure, there's not many on the fence with this, for or against, and the opinions are very very strong.

Had it early thanks to the Dr (AZ) but I know quite a few older people in high risk categories. A few have had the jab, most say - there is no covid here. Its a demand problem not a supply issue for them Darwin may step in

 

[Moose1414]

Whether you sort by Pct. Vaccinated or Pct. Fully Vaccinated, we are still embarrassingly low down the list

Tracking Coronavirus Vaccinations Around the World (Published 2023)

More than 5.55 billion people worldwide have received a Covid-19 vaccine, equal to about 72.3 percent of the world population.

www.nytimes.com

Embarrasingly low down the list? We are an island with a tight border, we have basically avoided the pandemic while every other country has not. Outside looking in, maybe its an embarrassment we are hoovering up vaccine supply at all.

We are a small country relative to others. The most vaccinated country is Isreal, they are 1/5 our size and are just ahead of the UK and USA. UK and USA made their own supply, and also were among hardest hit, 600k dead in USA. Vaccine production is still ramping up globally. Australia will by the end of this year have enough vaccine to jab anyone who wants to be jabbed. Probably does right now if those people are willing to take AZ. A little perspective please people we are the country who needs it the least and who will be getting an outrageously unequal share all things considered. We delayed our start briefly so the TGA could monitor the rollout of an experimental vaccine that at the time, and remains to this day, was only approved for emergency use. This allowed us to capture data on efficacy for free without experimenting on our population, which is good public health policy. The TGA and AMA used this data, along with early local observations, to rule AZ unsuitable for under 60's. The FDA [USA] and many other places have ruled it unsuitable for use at all. I'm not taking either of our vaccines right now because I am on a list for some surgery in the coming months and cannot justify that being delayed if I have a negative reaction to the vaccine, but all things being equal I personally would opt for the AZ because to me the data [which is very poor all round] actually suggest it might be slightly safer than Pfizer. People are furious for some reason that we are not in a rush, we have no reason to be.

 

[Moose1414]

Use has been approved in the USA and Canada as well:
COVID-19 vaccines for children younger than 12 years: are we ready? - The Lancet Infectious Diseases

Outrageous comment

First of all, the Lancet is the most scandalous publication in science and cannot be trusted. Secondly there is a difference between approved and approved for emergency use. The majority of countries either aren't at the point of injecting children yet or have said no to under 18s being vaccinated. In the case of the USA their entire rollout is basically the same situation legally to us here in Australia with regard to needing to sign a waiver to get AZ. There is no legal consequence at all. Same situation with children as it was with pregnant women over there, jab as many as you can then sit back and see if anything bad happens. People are outraged this is being given to children in those countries and rightly so. I can't imagine it happening here but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Luuuc]

Embarrasingly low down the list? We are an island

Pure luck

with a tight border

Which protects us but also sucks, and we would like to get rid of it ASAP

we have basically avoided the pandemic

We have done no such thing. We protected ourselves from deaths, but it's not like the pandemic didn't affect us. It has been kind of a big deal in everyone's lives for a while now - even people who weren't infected.

maybe its an embarrassment we are hoovering up vaccine supply at all.

By "hoovering up" do you mean producing a vaccine that nobody wants? Per capita we have done the exact opposite of hoovering up vaccine. Refer to previously-posted NYT link.

We are a small country relative to others.

So? Is an individual in a small country worth less than an individual in a large country? What does being small have to do with anything?

The most vaccinated country is Isreal, they are 1/5 our size and are just ahead of the UK and USA. UK and USA made their own supply, and also were among hardest hit, 600k dead in USA.

Fair point. And what's the excuse for the other 90 or so that are ahead of us on the list?

I mean if you really want to get logical, Australia's avoidance of the virus means that we have one of the most vulnerable populations on the planet, as we have virtually zero immunity.

A little perspective please people we are the country who needs it the least

What is the basis for this claim? Plenty of countries could "need it the least" if they had also closed their external and internal borders. Why should we make the sacrifices at both phases?

We delayed our start briefly so the TGA could monitor the rollout of an experimental vaccine that at the time, and remains to this day, only approved for emergency use. This allowed us to capture data on efficacy for free without experimenting on our population, which is good public health policy.

We ****ed up. We basically put all our eggs in the one basket, and it turned out to be a shitty basket.

 

[Goroyals22]

Embarrasingly low down the list? We are an island with a tight border, we have basically avoided the pandemic while every other country has not. Outside looking in, maybe its an embarrassment we are hoovering up vaccine supply at all.

We are a small country relative to others. The most vaccinated country is Isreal, they are 1/5 our size and are just ahead of the UK and USA. UK and USA made their own supply, and also were among hardest hit, 600k dead in USA. Vaccine production is still ramping up globally. Australia will by the end of this year have enough vaccine to jab anyone who wants to be jabbed. Probably does right now if those people are willing to take AZ. A little perspective please people we are the country who needs it the least and who will be getting an outrageously unequal share all things considered. We delayed our start briefly so the TGA could monitor the rollout of an experimental vaccine that at the time, and remains to this day, was only approved for emergency use. This allowed us to capture data on efficacy for free without experimenting on our population, which is good public health policy. The TGA and AMA used this data, along with early local observations, to rule AZ unsuitable for under 60's. The FDA [USA] and many other places have ruled it unsuitable for use at all. I'm not taking either of our vaccines right now because I am on a list for some surgery in the coming months and cannot justify that being delayed if I have a negative reaction to the vaccine, but all things being equal I personally would opt for the AZ because to me the data [which is very poor all round] actually suggest it might be slightly safer than Pfizer. People are furious for some reason that we are not in a rush, we have no reason to be.

As good as explanation as any… yes sky news blah blah… from about 2:30



Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Moose1414]

Ok, I'm fine with those rebuttals not really a topic that needs to be debated in depth because we are where we are. I have many complaints as well about our pandemic response and the pandemic response globally, agree its a shit show. We got lucky and find ourselves in a unique position, the rest of it are details that we could squabble about to the end of time.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned yet but McGowan I think for the first time answered a question as to what he expects the future holds. Said something along the lines of borders opening up once vaccination rate is 80% and put that at sometime in 2022. Thoughts? Do we want to get there faster? Do we want more than 80% ? This is about what I expected and how I am plotting my own way through the big V question. Don't think that as an under 40 its a question I will even need an answer to until around December of this year. We are going to have hard borders, snap lockdowns to deal with hotel q escapes, and the recommendation will remain on using Pfizer and waiting your turn. Whats the feel on this with the rest of you?

 

[Dazzler9]

Ok, I'm fine with those rebuttals not really a topic that needs to be debated in depth because we are where we are. I have many complaints as well about our pandemic response and the pandemic response globally, agree its a sh*t show. We got lucky and find ourselves in a unique position, the rest of it are details that we could squabble about to the end of time.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned yet but McGowan I think for the first time answered a question as to what he expects the future holds. Said something along the lines of borders opening up once vaccination rate is 80% and put that at sometime in 2022. Thoughts? Do we want to get there faster? Do we want more than 80% ? This is about what I expected and how I am plotting my own way through the big V question. Don't think that as an under 40 its a question I will even need an answer to until around December of this year. We are going to have hard borders, snap lockdowns to deal with hotel q escapes, and the recommendation will remain on using Pfizer and waiting your turn. Whats the feel on this with the rest of you?

I wouldn't expect any sort of opening up of international borders until a significant time after everybody has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated.

We may see various types of inducements to nudge people along, maybe a few carrot and stick approaches (no jab, no play sort of stuff). And possibly announcements of anticipated dates of phased border re-opening, after which point the government will suggest, in ScoMo marketing speak, if you're not vaccinated yet you will have to wear the consequences of that.

At a rough guess, 6 months after we've had full supply. Just a guess.

 

[Luuuc]

I reckon people will be getting very restless a lot sooner than 6 months. The pressure will really be on.

 

[kranky al]

Just an aside and not picking you out because of our other back and forth. But does anyone else find this 4% vaccination claim that gets bandied about in the media a bit misleading? There is a mandatory wait between jabs, we haven't had particularly widely available vaccine for all that long, 7 plus million people have had the first jab out of a population of what, 25 million? To me that is pretty much 25% of the population are vaccinated [waiting for second dose or better] which is a far less alarming stat that will only improve as more Pfizer come online. [you know, if your into that kind of thing]

Until you have had both you arent fully protected so i guess thats the standard we are looking for - the full job.

 

[Moose1414]

Be interested in seeing the death rate of covid and its variants in under 40’s vs the death rate of the vaccine

Especially given that doctors have said they can deal with the clotting issue far better now.

newsGP - Identifying and treating vaccine-linked blood clots in general practice

Other than age, there are ‘no known risk factors’ associated with developing blood clots with low platelets following an AstraZeneca vaccination, but GPs can still take steps to…

www1.racgp.org.au

Obviously controversial topic, comments invited post does not equal endorsement etc but this exists:

5. Conclusions
The present assessment raises the question whether it would be necessary to rethink policies and use COVID-19 vaccines more sparingly and with some discretion only in those that are willing to accept the risk because they feel more at risk from the true infection than the mock infection. Perhaps it might be necessary to dampen the enthusiasm by sober facts? In our view, the EMA and national authorities should instigate a safety review into the safety database of COVID-19 vaccines and governments should carefully consider their policies in light of these data. Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects. Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude.

 

[Moose1414]

Until you have had both you arent fully protected so i guess thats the standard we are looking for - the full job.

Was going to offer a thought on your post earlier wondering about getting to full protection by potentially taking a 3rd jab in order to protect your wife who I think you said is immunocompromised? From what I understand, a. this might work yes. but b. when they talk about things like the jab being 80% protective I think it more breaks down along the lines of for most people its somewhere in the realm of 100% effective and then the averages are bought down by people who it just isn't going to work at all for some reason or another, like perhaps your wife. You would expect to find a sliding scale here, for many the first jab would pretty much do the trick but we have a second to get as many people over the line as we can. If you have 2 jabs and it doesn't make you fully immune, probably a 3rd has a low percentage chance of improving your immunity any further. Probably exceptions to this rule but its a diminishing returns thing I'd expect, maybe they have tried this somewhere and have some data one way or another but I haven't come across it.

Hopefully that helps a little. Btw I am not immune compromised but in a similar situation to your wife for now of needing to avoid the jab but also avoid getting infected. Pretty much just is going to come down to risk management but there is a lot that can be done on the human behaviour side if one has the option to avoid risky situations. For me, aside from being lucky to live in WA, I'm in a whole different risk category from someone who catches the train to work, shares an office with a bunch of people with poor ventilation, goes to a public gym, chooses to eat in crowded restaurants or drink in crowded pubs etc. Yes, you can get unlucky especially with delta and be exposed even if taking precautionary measures, but keep in mind that how sick you get is tightly linked to the volume of viral load at the point of infection [and then also, downstream of this]. We've just seen that pretty much thousands of people have been exposed to the woman from Sydney, only 2 got sick. Doesn't mean only 2 were exposed, means that only those 2 lost the opening battle between their immune system and the volume of virus they inhaled. Outcomes vary wildly along the principles of that line, there is a lot that can be done in this space. I'm sure you are aware of all that but thought I'd point it out. And if you are living regional this is a good thing too.

 

[ConcreteWaters]

Outrageous comment

First of all, the Lancet is the most scandalous publication in science and cannot be trusted. Secondly there is a difference between approved and approved for emergency use. The majority of countries either aren't at the point of injecting children yet or have said no to under 18s being vaccinated. In the case of the USA their entire rollout is basically the same situation legally to us here in Australia with regard to needing to sign a waiver to get AZ. There is no legal consequence at all. Same situation with children as it was with pregnant women over there, jab as many as you can then sit back and see if anything bad happens. People are outraged this is being given to children in those countries and rightly so. I can't imagine it happening here but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

At what point do you trust the safety data though? All medicines go through it and so have the vaccines and they have been deemed safe in those populations by the FDA and MHRA, so surely it's when they meet the standard of other established medicines? We've done it for plenty of vaccines in the past, with much less rigorous testing (by which I mean the safety standards and means of testing these would have been different in the 1960s than they are now). At this point over 3 billion doses of Covid vaccines have been administered. I don't understand the outrage when there's informed consent. But, it's a classically Australian attitude to sit back and see what happens rather than taking technology by the balls and going for it.

 

[Biggie]

Sigh.

I am going t ohave to clean this thread up arent I?

 

[kranky al]

Was going to offer a thought on your post earlier wondering about getting to full protection by potentially taking a 3rd jab in order to protect your wife who I think you said is immunocompromised? From what I understand, a. this might work yes. but b. when they talk about things like the jab being 80% protective I think it more breaks down along the lines of for most people its somewhere in the real of 100% effective and then the averages are bought down by people who it just isn't going to work at all for some reason or another, like perhaps your wife. You would expect to find a sliding scale here, for many the first jab would pretty much do the trick but we have a second to get as many people over the line as we can. If you have 2 jabs and it doesn't make you fully immune, probably a 3rd has a low percentage chance of improving your immunity any further. Probably exceptions to this rule but its a diminishing returns thing I'd expect, maybe they have tried this somewhere and have some data one way or another but I haven't come across it.

Hopefully that helps a little. Btw I am not immune compromised but in a similar situation to your wife for now of needing to avoid the jab but also avoid getting infected. Pretty much just is going to come down to risk management but there is a lot that can be done on the human behaviour side if one has the option to avoid risky situations. For me, aside from being lucky to live in WA, I'm in a whole different risk category from someone who catches the train to work, shares an office with a bunch of people with poor ventilation, goes to a public gym, chooses to eat in crowded restaurants or drink in crowded pubs etc. Yes, you can get unlucky especially with delta and be exposed, but keep in mind that how sick you get is tightly linked to the volume of viral load at the point of infection [and then also, downstream of this]. We've just seen that pretty much thousands of people have been exposed to the woman from Sydney, only 2 got sick. Doesn't mean only 2 were exposed, means that only those 2 lost the opening battle between their immune system and the volume of virus they inhaled. Outcomes vary wildly along the principles of that line, there is a lot that can be done in this space. I'm sure you are aware of all that but thought I'd point it out. And if you are living regional this is a good thing too.

Yeah im in gero and we are yet to have a single case - we have a system in place where if i have to i live in the caravan for a few weeks if exposed.

but im still going to get every vaccine i can - even if its 1% better.

 

[Moose1414]

At what point do you trust the safety data though? All medicines go through it and so have the vaccines and they have been deemed safe in those populations by the FDA and MHRA, so surely it's when they meet the standard of other established medicines? We've done it for plenty of vaccines in the past, with much less rigorous testing (by which I mean the safety standards and means of testing these would have been different in the 1960s than they are now). At this point over 3 billion doses of Covid vaccines have been administered. I don't understand the outrage when there's informed consent. But, it's a classically Australian attitude to sit back and see what happens rather than taking technology by the balls and going for it.

Fair points. I don't think in the US there has been true informed consent but happy to leave it there. Btw differences aside, would be genuinely interest din your take on the following papers, I think you hinted at an expertise in immunology? No agenda here genuinely curious about the science.

Emergence of immune escape at dominant SARS-CoV-2 killer T-cell epitope

The adaptive immune system protects against infection via selection of specific antigen receptors on B-cells and T-cells. We studied the prevalent CD8 ‘killer’ T-cell response mounted against SARS-CoV-2 Spike269-277 epitope YLQPRTFLL via the most frequent Human Leukocyte Antigen (HLA) class I...

www.medrxiv.org

Immunodominant T-cell epitopes from the SARS-CoV-2 spike antigen reveal robust pre-existing T-cell immunity in unexposed individuals - Scientific Reports

The COVID-19 pandemic has revealed a range of disease phenotypes in infected patients with asymptomatic, mild, or severe clinical outcomes, but the mechanisms that determine such variable outcomes remain unresolved. In this study, we identified immunodominant CD8 T-cell epitopes in the spike...

www.nature.com

 

[ConcreteWaters]

Fair points. I don't think in the US there has been true informed consent but happy to leave it there. Btw differences aside, would be genuinely interest din your take on the following papers, I think you hinted at an expertise in immunology? No agenda here genuinely curious about the science.

Emergence of immune escape at dominant SARS-CoV-2 killer T-cell epitope

The adaptive immune system protects against infection via selection of specific antigen receptors on B-cells and T-cells. We studied the prevalent CD8 ‘killer’ T-cell response mounted against SARS-CoV-2 Spike269-277 epitope YLQPRTFLL via the most frequent Human Leukocyte Antigen (HLA) class I...

www.medrxiv.org

Immunodominant T-cell epitopes from the SARS-CoV-2 spike antigen reveal robust pre-existing T-cell immunity in unexposed individuals - Scientific Reports

The COVID-19 pandemic has revealed a range of disease phenotypes in infected patients with asymptomatic, mild, or severe clinical outcomes, but the mechanisms that determine such variable outcomes remain unresolved. In this study, we identified immunodominant CD8 T-cell epitopes in the spike...

www.nature.com

No worries, back to a grant application this afternoon (cancer immunology) but will check them out

 

[Moose1414]

Sigh.

I am going t ohave to clean this thread up arent I?

And why is that, this is a pretty civil discussion despite some very predictable differences of opinion. Do you absolutely need a one way thread here or is there some room for discussion? Are you playing the role of a public health authority or moderator of a public forum. Be a shame to go deleting a bunch of stuff here, for what purpose?

 

[Dazzler9]

Obviously controversial topic, comments invited post does not equal endorsement etc but this exists:

5. Conclusions
The present assessment raises the question whether it would be necessary to rethink policies and use COVID-19 vaccines more sparingly and with some discretion only in those that are willing to accept the risk because they feel more at risk from the true infection than the mock infection. Perhaps it might be necessary to dampen the enthusiasm by sober facts? In our view, the EMA and national authorities should instigate a safety review into the safety database of COVID-19 vaccines and governments should carefully consider their policies in light of these data. Ideally, independent scientists should carry out thorough case reviews of the very severe cases, so that there can be evidence-based recommendations on who is likely to benefit from a SARS-CoV2 vaccination and who is in danger of suffering from side effects. Currently, our estimates show that we have to accept four fatal and 16 serious side effects per 100,000 vaccinations in order to save the lives of 2–11 individuals per 100,000 vaccinations, placing risks and benefits on the same order of magnitude.

I will offer this comment, but really want to avoid a sh*tfight.

The journal that published the article, has since released this notification-

Expression of Concern: Walach et al. The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations—We Should Rethink the Policy. Vaccines 2021, 9, 693

The journal is issuing this expression of concern to alert readers to significant concerns regarding the paper cited above [...]

www.mdpi.com

 

[Biggie]

Hi Moose1414

Apologies.

I didn't mean delete.

I meant move the anti vacc AND the pro vacc crew out of the info thread.

Its clogging it up

In fact, start a thread yourself. The posters that want to engage will follow.

This is the thread for Covid updates and lockdowns.

Or as you suggested, I can thread ban you? And perhaps a few others as well.

Cheers