Cummins Overrated?

[eth-dog]

Dirk Nannes made a really good point either this test or last about Cummins. He said he hasn't learned how to take wickets, like someone like Johnson had. He's bowling well, keeping it tight, getting a lot of play and misses, but he ahsn't quite figured out how to dismiss them.

 

[Gethelred]

Hes pretty good more Siddle level than Johnson or McGrath.

Right now, he's got nothing on Siddle; in fact, I'm struggling to find a point of comparison between the two other than they both bowl right arm.

For all that I've defended Cummins in this thread, he'd love to become a player like Siddle; can bowl all day, wake up and do it again tomorrow, all on the same nibbling line outside off. Cummins is faster, and has displayed in the one day game that he's got some variety - bowled some quality cutters/slower balls in the past - but he's still very much a work in progress, as is Starc really. Only one of our four bowlers this series is even close to the end product is Hazlewood, and he's still got more to go before he reaches his ceiling.

 

[Steinfreo]

Right now, he's got nothing on Siddle; in fact, I'm struggling to find a point of comparison between the two other than they both bowl right arm.

For all that I've defended Cummins in this thread, he'd love to become a player like Siddle; can bowl all day, wake up and do it again tomorrow, all on the same nibbling line outside off. Cummins is faster, and has displayed in the one day game that he's got some variety - bowled some quality cutters/slower balls in the past - but he's still very much a work in progress, as is Starc really. Only one of our four bowlers this series is even close to the end product is Hazlewood, and he's still got more to go before he reaches his ceiling.

Yeah they bowl different but I think Cummins has a statistically similar ceiling to Siddle.

 

[Holden Hillbilly]

Yeah they bowl different but I think Cummins has a statistically similar ceiling to Siddle.

But Cummins bowls 15-20 ks faster.

 

[lewigie]

And doesn't live off bananas

 

[Bigelow]

was reading Cummins earnt more last year than all players bar Warner,Smith and....Shane Watson.

 

[Damon_3388]

But Cummins bowls 15-20 ks faster.

So did Siddle, once upon a time.

Dirk Nannes made a really good point either this test or last about Cummins. He said he hasn't learned how to take wickets, like someone like Johnson had. He's bowling well, keeping it tight, getting a lot of play and misses, but he ahsn't quite figured out how to dismiss them.

Cummins then goes and flips that theory upside down, and takes more wickets at a better strike rate but poorer economy rate than any of our other bowlers in the 1st innings of this Test.

 

[Gethelred]

So did Siddle, once upon a time.



Cummins then goes and flips that theory upside down, and takes more wickets at a better strike rate but poorer economy rate than any of our other bowlers in the 1st innings of this Test.

That's the way of the pundit.

Give a bloke a rev up, they're out the next ball. Say someone's bowling a treat, the next one's ten rows back...

 

[Bradesmaen]

So did Siddle, once upon a time.



Cummins then goes and flips that theory upside down, and takes more wickets at a better strike rate but poorer economy rate than any of our other bowlers in the 1st innings of this Test.

Yes, all those tail end wickets are the show of a real quality bowler.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes, all those tail end wickets are the show of a real quality bowler.

Murali got tail enders out; Warne got tail enders out; McGrath got tail enders out.

Bowlers take wickets, and not everyone's in the top order.

Anyone ever told you you're like a dog with a bone, growling at anyone who comes close or tries to take it away?

 

[Bradesmaen]

Murali got tail enders out; Warne got tail enders out; McGrath got tail enders out.

Bowlers take wickets, and not everyone's in the top order.

Anyone ever told you you're like a dog with a bone, growling at anyone who comes close or tries to take it away?

It's funny the stats you use to say he's a great bowler, are saying the exact opposite. You can't read stats.

Another way to see that he bowls too short - 1 LBW in 36 test wickets.

 

[Gethelred]

It's funny the stats you use to say he's a great bowler, are saying the exact opposite. You can't read stats.

Another way to see that he bowls too short - 1 LBW in 36 test wickets.

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Cummins is a third quick - as you're not selecting him in front of Starc or Hazlewood, are you - and he's very much a work in progress, which you would know if you bothered to look. I may not read stats, but that's far better than not being able to read.

Morne Morkel get many LBW's, mate?

 

[Bradesmaen]

That's not what I'm saying at all.

Cummins is a third quick - as you're not selecting him in front of Starc or Hazlewood, are you - and he's very much a work in progress, which you would know if you bothered to look. I may not read stats, but that's far better than not being able to read.

Morne Morkel get many LBW's, mate?

But you're basically saying that he should have more wickets but Starc/Haze get them all, yet he's bowled the same amount of deliveries and got less.

 

[The Passenger]

But but but but but but i swear he only ever takes tailend wickets . i swear guys you have to listen to me. Cummins gets tailend wickets only.

Tailend (#'s 8 to 11) wickets as percentage of total wickets
McGrath - 25%
Marshall - 26%
Cummins - 27%
Hazelwood - 27%
Rabada - 28%
Pollock - 29%
Starc - 29%
Boult - 29%
Hadlee - 29%
Steyn - 31%
Murali - 32%
Wasim Akram - 35%
Warne - 37%

Drunk on self loathing again Brades.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Tailend (#'s 8 to 11) wickets as percentage of total wickets
McGrath - 25%
Marshall - 26%
Cummins - 27%
Hazelwood - 27%
Rabada - 28%
Pollock - 29%
Starc - 29%
Boult - 29%
Hadlee - 29%
Steyn - 31%
Murali - 32%
Wasim Akram - 35%
Warne - 37%

Drunk on self loathing again Brades.

Relevance to the MCG test on which you quoted me? Very childish.

 

[The Passenger]

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...ickets;size=200;template=results;type=bowling

The reason people rate him very highly is because his performances at a young age sit him comfortably alongside and above many other previous 24 year old quick bowlers in test cricket.
Hadlee - 9 tests, 32 wkts @ 29
Ambrose - 8 tests, 29 wkts @ 27
Larwood - 12 tests, 41 wkts @ 31
Lillee - 11 tests, 51 wkts @ 24
Walsh - 13 tests, 45 wkts @ 24
Marshall - 16 tests, 49 wkts @ 29
Anderson - 18 tests, 54 wkts @ 37
Shoab Akhtar - 15 tests, 45 wkts @ 35
McGrath - 9 tests, 25 wkts @ 38
Willis - 9 tests, 23 wkts @ 33
Davidson - 5 tests, 8 wkts @ 26
Ntini - 23 tests, 56 wkts @ 37
Imran Khan - 15 tests, 62 wkts @32

Obviously with injuries Cummins doesn't have the quantity of wickets some young quick bowlers have racked up - Kapil Dev, Botham, Wasim Akram, Waqar Younis, Steyn, Rabada et al, but 4 wicket per test and an average under 30 is good going for any bowler, and especially good for a young quick bowler.

Still plenty of water to flow under the bridge and his body could shut down at any given moment. He could be the next Shane Bond or Bruce Reid. His form also may not hold and he could be the next Ian Meckiff of Geoff Lawson (Good, but not great bowlers, who had great starts to their careers)

But on the available evidence we have plenty to be excited about. With up to 5 tests to go before his 24th birthday, he still may even get above 50+ wickets before turning 25. Only a few people deny that, and lets be honest - no one rates those opinions anyway.

 

[Belnakor]

was reading Cummins earnt more last year than all players bar Warner,Smith and....Shane Watson.

doesn't seem right. Starc gets 1m+ just from his CA deal. Watto makes sense since he was on almost 2m from the IPL.

 

[The Passenger]

Relevance to the MCG test on which you quoted me? Very childish.

Lol should we drag up your childish posting history regarding Cummins

Having a sook about selection in the Ashes by posting irrelevant stats that include only one first class game.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/who-plays-in-the-ashes.1178143/page-21#post-53304770

General sarcastic offended:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-stadium-mirpur.1175456/page-28#post-52163894
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ralia-chittagong.1176250/page-9#post-52260013
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...d-9-nsw-v-sa-scg.1159304/page-2#post-49024289
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...squad-discussion.1153169/page-6#post-48069402

Something, something, tailender:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-with-stress-fractures.1159599/#post-49068887
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-4th-test-day-3.1106917/page-10#post-40265136

Brades posting proper analysis regarding Cummins (or any cricketer, any cricket match, or even just a single event taking place on a cricket field)

 

[Bradesmaen]

Lol should we drag up your childish posting history regarding Cummins

Having a sook about selection in the Ashes by posting irrelevant stats that include only one first class game.
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/who-plays-in-the-ashes.1178143/page-21#post-53304770

General sarcastic offended:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-stadium-mirpur.1175456/page-28#post-52163894
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...ralia-chittagong.1176250/page-9#post-52260013
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...d-9-nsw-v-sa-scg.1159304/page-2#post-49024289
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...squad-discussion.1153169/page-6#post-48069402

Something, something, tailender:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-with-stress-fractures.1159599/#post-49068887
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/thre...-4th-test-day-3.1106917/page-10#post-40265136

Brades posting proper analysis regarding Cummins (or any cricketer, any cricket match, or even just a single event taking place on a cricket field)

It's amazing how offended you get by the truth. Anyone would think you're related to him you defend him that harshly. No one has disproven any of my statements on Cummins with facts. I'll just sit back and watch the delicious salt run.

 

[The Passenger]

No one has disproven any of my statements on Cummins with facts.

Facts have disproved your bollocks statements twice on this page already. Don't even have to delve into the trove that can be found elsewhere on this board.

Tick: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cummins-overrated.1184307/page-3#post-53850868
Tick: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/cummins-overrated.1184307/page-3#post-53850796

Facts: Takes 4 wickets per test and averages under 30. He has only done this short term but anyone that can do this long term is in the top end of bowling performances.
Facts: Averages under 30 runs per wicket in every format he plays in.
Facts: 24 years of age and still very much maturing as an international bowler.

I'll just sit back and watch the delicious salt run.

Lol you'll sit back and watch salty tears? Given he has taken 4 wickets in 7 of his 9 tests, how many salty tears are you expecting to see?

Everyone else - myself included - is just watching a brilliant talent come to fruition after years of injury frustration. Not too mention we are laughing at embarrassment at those digging in their heels (there's not many left to be fair).

The only salty tears are coming from you every time he takes a wicket.

But it was just a tailender again.
But look at this one game he played and only got one wicket and therefore must be shit.

 

[The Passenger]

BTW did you ever get around releasing these "results". Didn't think so. Good work bro. All rooting for ya.

As a cricket purist, I'd rather see him bowl disciplined good balls that earn wickets. He doesn't bowl like that, he'll get a few cheap wickets with trash but leak runs. I have research into this topic going and will release the results soon.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Such a childish response. Can't even debate without throwing a tantrum.

Cherry picking helps no one, but us actual intellectuals don't cherry pick or respond to attention seekers

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Cherry picking helps no one

Cherry farmers?

 

[The Passenger]

Such a childish response. Can't even debate without throwing a tantrum.

Cherry picking helps no one, but us actual intellectuals don't cherry pick or respond to attention seekers

Lol if we want to talk tantrums we could just post links to the guy who throws his toys out the cot almost every time Cummins gets a wicket - and for that matter Starc and previously Johnson.

And a self described intellectual. Good luck with that one bro. I'm sure you'll have a queue of people looking to subscribe to your blog

Also please provide examples of cherry picking. Was it using all performances to the same age for comparison? Using all performances across each format? Or is it this one? https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/who-plays-in-the-ashes.1178143/page-21#post-53304770

 

[eth-dog]

So did Siddle, once upon a time.



Cummins then goes and flips that theory upside down, and takes more wickets at a better strike rate but poorer economy rate than any of our other bowlers in the 1st innings of this Test.

Let's see him do it consistently.