Daniel Bradshaw

[demondavey]

David Neitz massively overrated ITT

No he wasn't. His stats are virtually identical to Alastair Lynch. Was Lynch overrated?

 

[demondavey]

This was not based on subjective opinion or reputations. It was based more on total goals, total games, goals per game and average scoring in the era.

I agree that Franklin is not yet a legend, my initial list was from a 'where would Franklin be rated when he retires' thread. If he retires now, he would be a Great, if he goes another 3-4 years he will likely enter Legend territory.

Dermie was a great player but only scored 2.2 goals a game. Probably due to playing CHF to Dunstall. His record is worse than Bradshaw's.

Quinlan and Pav are probably both border-line cases. In hindsight Quinlan's record is better than Pav, so they could probably swap.



Royce Hart - 2 goals per game for 187 games doesn't really make the Very Good grade. He would probably be in similar Tier as Bradshaw etc.



30 less goals from 15 more games. Neitz played a few years at CHB too. From a goalkicking perspective, Neitz wins.

Franklin is a legend. An out and out legend.

 

[demondavey]

Loewe only has 30 goals less than Neitz, all whilst playing most of his career second fiddle to Lockett

And Neitz played CHB for a lot of his career.

 

[demondavey]

Always wondered whether he was on performance enhancers... he was huge.

One of the biggest units I've seen play. Massive arms and shoulders, but not a huge chest or back.

 

[demondavey]

Yet you have Brown as very good, Roughead will end his career with more goals whilst playing up the ground alot more

Roughead is a better player than Brown. Brown was very good, but he is horribly overrated when taking into consideration the quality and records of other players during the same era. Bradshaw is the equal of Brown.

 

[The Swert]

No room for Jezza amongst all of those key forwards ???

Jezza was great in 1970 but kicked less than 30 goals in ten seasons.
Only 75th on the goal kicking list equal with Robert Walls. I can't list everybody.

Commendable list....but. You have Sav Rocca alongside Doug Wade as a great? Did you see Wade play? How many full forwards kicked 1000+ goals? Rocca was good to very good

Wade would be the best of the Greats statistically, but I don't think many would regard him in the same aura as those above him. Rocca's stats are better than his reputation, more goals than Carey and Sticks and a better goal average than Richo.

Yet you have Brown as very good, Roughead will end his career with more goals whilst playing up the ground alot more

Perhaps it was unfair to include current players like Roughead and Franklin.
I would predict that J Roughead, J Kennedy and J Riewoldt would all retire in the Very Good category, T Cloke retires in the tier below.


And somebody asked about Fev. Yes, he was probably heading for the Great category if he didn't retire early.

 

[Sttew]

Wade would be the best of the Greats statistically, but I don't think many would regard him in the same aura as those above him. Rocca's stats are better than his reputation, more goals than Carey and Sticks and a better goal average than Richo.

Did you see Wade play? I did. Given we have only 4 forwards who have kicked 1000+ goals how can you mark him down? And how can you rate Rocca a great?

You contradict yourself too. You admit Rocca was statistically better than his reputation/ aura, hence he is a great?

 

[joop]

And Neitz played CHB for a lot of his career.

As Loewe played ruck a lot of his career.

 

[demondavey]

As Loewe played ruck a lot of his career.

So they're both guns, big deal.

 

[Pykie]

This was not based on subjective opinion or reputations. It was based more on total goals, total games, goals per game and average scoring in the era.

I agree that Franklin is not yet a legend, my initial list was from a 'where would Franklin be rated when he retires' thread. If he retires now, he would be a Great, if he goes another 3-4 years he will likely enter Legend territory.

Dermie was a great player but only scored 2.2 goals a game. Probably due to playing CHF to Dunstall. His record is worse than Bradshaw's.

Quinlan and Pav are probably both border-line cases. In hindsight Quinlan's record is better than Pav, so they could probably swap.



Royce Hart - 2 goals per game for 187 games doesn't really make the Very Good grade. He would probably be in similar Tier as Bradshaw etc.



30 less goals from 15 more games. Neitz played a few years at CHB too. From a goalkicking perspective, Neitz wins.

Then why label it best key forwards?

Why not label it best goal kickers?

Dermie and Royce Hart are two of the greatest CHF's to play the game, CHF of course kick less goals than FF's, that doesn't make them worse off in a "best" argument though.........

If anything CHF's should be elevated in this list, over history it is a far harder and more important position to play than FF.

Pretty much all the great CHF's to play the game have resulted in hugely successful era's for their respective teams, think Kernahan, Carey, Dermie, Hart, Brown (to a much lesser extent). Riewoldt is the one outlier in the modern era, but the Saints were pretty unlucky in that regard.

The same can't be said for FF's. Going off goals and scores is a completely flawed criteria for "best key forward"

 

[The Swert]

Did you see Wade play? I did. Given we have only 4 forwards who have kicked 1000+ goals how can you mark him down? And how can you rate Rocca a great?

You contradict yourself too. You admit Rocca was statistically better than his reputation/ aura, hence he is a great?

I think the fact that you saw him play actually diminishes your opinion, not strengthens it, because personal opinion can blind a statistical analysis such as this.

Any list will be controversial, especially about where you draw the line between different categories. And my list has drawn many comments and in someways hijacked this thread. Ooops.

In hindsight, there is a probably a case to swap Wade and Carey.

But Sav Rocca is clearly closer to the Great group than Very Good group. The most questionable 'greats' are probably Pavlich and Riewoldt, with Quinlan probably deserving an upgrade.

Then why label it best key forwards?

Why not label it best goal kickers?

Dermie and Royce Hart are two of the greatest CHF's to play the game, CHF of course kick less goals than FF's, that doesn't make them worse off in a "best" argument though.........

If anything CHF's should be elevated in this list, over history it is a far harder and more important position to play than FF.

Pretty much all the great CHF's to play the game have resulted in hugely successful era's for their respective teams, think Kernahan, Carey, Dermie, Hart, Brown (to a much lesser extent). Riewoldt is the one outlier in the modern era, but the Saints were pretty unlucky in that regard.

The same can't be said for FF's. Going off goals and scores is a completely flawed criteria for "best key forward"

Go make your own list.
I created criteria for my own and I stick by it.

Wait until I create my 'best key defenders' list

 

[demondavey]

Isn't this thread about Daniel Bradshaw?

 

[Pykie]

Go make your own list.
I created criteria for my own and I stick by it.

Wait until I create my 'best key defenders' list

You've put your list out there. Im critiquing it.


It's completely baffling that you rank forwards purely for goals and scores.

I'm surprised you even have Carey in your legends then.

 

[The Swert]

You've put your list out there. Im critiquing it.


It's completely baffling that you rank forwards purely for goals and scores.

I'm surprised you even have Carey in your legends then.

It's easier to rank things on cold hard facts than on immeasurables such as skill, position, leadership, reputation, strength of opposition etc.

But feel free to have a crack yourself.

 

[Monkey King]

A bloke who kicks 75 goals in a season should have been AA IMO.

You don’t get AA for reaching some benchmark. You get it for being the best in your position. Fevola only got a gig in the pocket after kicking 99. Buddy took FF with 113 goals and Riewoldt CHF with an impressive 65 from that position. Bradshaw’s comparative return that year was worthy of an AA squad spot, which he got. Wasn’t enough to make the team though and rightly so.

 

[Monkey King]

Loewe only has 30 goals less than Neitz, all whilst playing most of his career second fiddle to Lockett

Neitz spent a fair amount of time in defence though.

I don't really understand that then tbh. He must've brought something else that was very special to the field to get that gig on less than 400 goals.

Played as a true CHF. 2 goals a game is a fine return. He was a special player.

 

[branedotorg]

It's easier to rank things on cold hard facts than on immeasurables such as skill, position, leadership, reputation, strength of opposition etc.

But feel free to have a crack yourself.

clear methodology > the vibe

 

[wingardfreak]

In the crop below the likes of Hall, Neitz, Fev, N Riewoldt, Pavlich, Franklin, etc

Level with Lucas, Gehrig, Brown, Tredrea, O'Loughlin plus Lloyd and Richo since this is a 2000-2009 thread.

This is gonna seem biased but Tredrea is comfortably in the top group, always get underrated on here. Before his knees blew up was the most dominant CHF for 5 years straight.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[kozi]

In the crop below the likes of Hall, Neitz, Fev, N Riewoldt, Pavlich, Franklin, etc

Level with Lucas, Gehrig, Brown, Tredrea, O'Loughlin plus Lloyd and Richo since this is a 2000-2009 thread.

 

[stax on the mull]

One of the better reliable straight kicks in the post 90's AFL era. Up there with Lockett, Lloyd, Dunstall for accuracy, but probably a longer kick than any of those.

 

[demondavey]

One day we hope he becomes an internet meme

But like Chris Grant

 

[demondavey]

Good way of putting it. One question though since Fev was an absolute freak he probably would've retired last year had he not been a flog off field. Would he have ended up in your tier 2?

Fev kicked 600+ in a career that finished far too early, at least 4-5 years too early. He'd have easily kicked 900 goals.

 

[SSSSSS]

Good way of putting it. One question though since Fev was an absolute freak he probably would've retired last year had he not been a flog off field. Would he have ended up in your tier 2?

He had the talent to end up in the first tier IMO. Was incredibly gifted but pissed it away. Who knows how much better he could have been if he had the workrate to match the talent.

 

[Wolfgang West]

At the start of the year, I rated the best key forwards as such.

Legends - G Coventry, J Coleman, P Hudson, T Lockett, J Dunstall, G Ablett, W Carey, L Franklin
Greats - D Lee, H Vallence, B Mohr, D Wade, J Titus, B Pratt, M Lloyd, M Richardson, P McKenna, S Rocca, S Kernahan, M Pavlich, N Riewoldt
Very Good - F Fanning, J Moriarty, P Sumich, W Tredrea, B Hall, B Fevola, B Quinlan, A Lynch, D Neitz, J Brown, M Roach, T Modra, S Beasley, K Templeton, B Taylor, M Moncrieff

Bradshaw would fit into the next tier down. This tier would include the likes of Gehrig, Loewe, O'Loughlin, Brereton, J Roughead, Longmire, Grant, Lucas, Salmon, Brownless etc

Bob Pratt inducted into the AFL Hall Of Fame as an inaugural Legend of the game and he is a great ??? Kernahan, Lloyd, Richardson, Pavlich, Riewoldt and Sav Rocca alongside Bob Pratt ??? Please.

 

[dmc333]

Isn't this thread about Daniel Bradshaw?

Alistair Lynch played at full back a lot for Fitzroy! Wait, what?