Play Nice Derailed, (The Place to Continue Off-Topic Discussion)

[jackcass]

I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion and also to challenge that opinion (playing fair of course).

I want to pick on on a couple of points about his running. Firstly he isn't slow, further he is one that creates the play by his hard running. Runs to create an option, running to pick up a player, he is very creative with his running patterns.

But the real question I want to ask is can you tell me how many times this year his opponent has beaten him because in my view when assessing a player's game, you also need to take into account what his opponent has done. For example a low impact game might not mean much but if his opponent has been held then that for me is a win.

Out of interest, who in our squad do you think is slower than Tom Phillips?

 

[PyrrhicVic]

Lol nice try.

What repeat inside 50s were we being bombarded by in the FIRST quarter while we were up by 5 goals?

Also, the losing 2 on 1 he was a part of was on the wing. Not in defence. And it was still ultimately a 2 on 1 where he was part of the 2...and lost. Which led to a flag winning goal.

Your irrational hatred of Langdon is amusing, he loses one contest on the wing so he's responsible for losing the entire match. If you're going to assign blame, have a look at our midfield that decided to go on an early vacation.

All I can say is thank god you're not our list manager.

 

[PyrrhicVic]

You forgot to mention he's also elite in turnovers, clangers, the differential between total possessions and effective possessions, missed tackles, uselessly minding space instead of covering an opponent everyone watching can see will be the next in the chain, fumbles, and opposition score involvements.

In fact, I heard a rumour the AFL are changing the breakdown in how teams score to:

From centre clearances:
From stoppages:
From intercepts:
From involvement by T Phillips:

You completely ignored his positive statistics and in my opinion (and that of the coaches), those outweigh his drawbacks.

 

[Maggie5]

Out of interest, who in our squad do you think is slower than Tom Phillips?

Interesting question and purely on lack of speed, I would say Roughhead, Cox, Mayne, Pendlebury (quick hands and positions well though), Grundy and even Sidebottom.

However speed can be burst players, then I would bring back Sidebottom and Grundy.

Endurance and hard running, this is where Phillips comes into his own which is why I don't think he is slow.

 

[jackcass]

You completely ignored his positive statistics and in my opinion (and that of the coaches), those outweigh his drawbacks.

Nah, I've frequently said that if he's getting 30 or more possessions, his disposal efficiency is pushing 70% or God forbid even better, and he's hitting the scoreboard, then his good clearly outweighs his bad. The much vaunted 2018 purple patch aside though, those games are becoming rarer. Even if he was locking down on an opponent (which would to some extent explain the lower possession numbers) I'd give him a tick.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion and also to challenge that opinion (playing fair of course).

I want to pick on on a couple of points about his running. Firstly he isn't slow, further he is one that creates the play by his hard running. Runs to create an option, running to pick up a player, he is very creative with his running patterns.

But the real question I want to ask is can you tell me how many times this year his opponent has beaten him because in my view when assessing a player's game, you also need to take into account what his opponent has done. For example a low impact game might not mean much but if his opponent has been held then that for me is a win.

A lot of truth there.

This might be small potatoes but I wonder if the heavier detractors are watching him via TV or live?
I mention this because going live you see his incredible work, blocking space, creating options, filling holes etc etc.
This is not conveyed as well on the Tele.
That’s why I raise it. Just from a perspective angle.
You see the incredible work of Sidebottom, Pendlebury, and Phillips is certainly rerunning to fill holes and that places extra pressure on the opposition as an example.

I don’t particularly agree with the criticism of Phillips as it’s a bit heavy handed (in my view) to his actual play. But that’s just my take.

No issues if others see it differently.

I’d rate him a B + player but with elite running skills.
Amazing when you watch him live and focus on his work rate.

A Best runner I’ve seen in recent enough times is Robert Harvey.
One of the reasons he was so incredible as a player was his manic work rate.

 

[jackcass]

Interesting question and purely on lack of speed, I would say Roughhead, Cox, Mayne, Pendlebury (quick hands and positions well though), Grundy and even Sidebottom.

However speed can be burst players, then I would bring back Sidebottom and Grundy.

Endurance and hard running, this is where Phillips comes into his own which is why I don't think he is slow.

I was thinking more straight line speed. I'd say Sidey has easily got him covered for pace and I'd say it's pretty line ball with Mayne, Pendles and Grundy. A 50m sprint race against Cox might prove interesting. I'd say he's got Reidy and Roughy covered. But essentially, we're pretty much agreeing that aside from a few big lumbering types, he's pretty much the slowest player on our list. I think that can be skewed a little depending upon whether it's offensive or defensive running. He doesn't stop, but I think he's quicker offensively than defensively.

There were a couple of glaring instances in Friday nights game that to me typify his game. In the first instance, in the last quarter he followed Florent from the centre square to a contest on the boundary at HB, lagging a good 10-15m behind. Ball came free of the contest and Florent gathered, Phillips hit the afterburners, closed the distance, stuffed the tackle and went to ground allowing Florent to run un-opposed into F50. Florent stuffed the pass to Reid and to his credit Phillips was 1 of the 1st players there to gather the resultant ground ball, handballed to a flat-footed Madgen ??? who was jammed against the boundary and had an opponent right on him so handballed it straight back to Phillips who blazed down the line to Aliir v WHE. WHE was at least able to 50/50 the contest and bring the footy to ground. So poor defense by Phillips to allow Florent so much latitude, poor defense to stuff the tackle, poor decision making to handball to a team mate flat footed and in a worse situation, poor decision making to blaze down the line to a contest that in all likelihood we should have lost. But he ran a long way, and his work rate was fantastic.

In the 2nd instance, Sydney were rebounding along an open wing from our HF line, Florent ?? ran from inside our F50 to nearly the opposite end of the centre square. Phillips ran a parallel course to him the entire way, never once seeking to close toward Florent who had a couple of bounces and an easy inside F50 disposal. Poor defense by Phillips to not try to at least close the gap on Florent and pressure either his run or the bounces or the disposal. But he ran a long way and his work rate was fantastic.

 

[ClaytonM]

jackcass is prepared to give you Tom Phillips?

I’ll give them a Wells.

 

[Maggie5]

A lot of truth there.

This might be small potatoes but I wonder if the heavier detractors are watching him via TV or live?
I mention this because going live you see his incredible work, blocking space, creating options, filling holes etc etc.
This is not conveyed as well on the Tele.
That’s why I raise it. Just from a perspective angle.
You see the incredible work of Sidebottom, Pendlebury, and Phillips is certainly rerunning to fill holes and that places extra pressure on the opposition as an example.

I don’t particularly agree with the criticism of Phillips as it’s a bit heavy handed (in my view) to his actual play. But that’s just my take.

No issues if others see it differently.

I’d rate him a B + player but with elite running skills.
Amazing when you watch him live and focus on his work rate.

A Best runner I’ve seen in recent enough times is Robert Harvey.
One of the reasons he was so incredible as a player was his manic work rate.

Good point you raise. First thing I do at the game is look where players line up, who they are on and who is on the bench.

TV or radio gives you none of that.

I mostly post on what I have seen live as the TV does not do it justice and I tend to look forward/back where players are relative to the play.

 

[Maggie5]

I was thinking more straight line speed. I'd say Sidey has easily got him covered for pace and I'd say it's pretty line ball with Mayne, Pendles and Grundy. A 50m sprint race against Cox might prove interesting. I'd say he's got Reidy and Roughy covered. But essentially, we're pretty much agreeing that aside from a few big lumbering types, he's pretty much the slowest player on our list. I think that can be skewed a little depending upon whether it's offensive or defensive running. He doesn't stop, but I think he's quicker offensively than defensively.

There were a couple of glaring instances in Friday nights game that to me typify his game. In the first instance, in the last quarter he followed Florent from the centre square to a contest on the boundary at HB, lagging a good 10-15m behind. Ball came free of the contest and Florent gathered, Phillips hit the afterburners, closed the distance, stuffed the tackle and went to ground allowing Florent to run un-opposed into F50. Florent stuffed the pass to Reid and to his credit Phillips was 1 of the 1st players there to gather the resultant ground ball, handballed to a flat-footed Madgen ??? who was jammed against the boundary and had an opponent right on him so handballed it straight back to Phillips who blazed down the line to Aliir v WHE. WHE was at least able to 50/50 the contest and bring the footy to ground. So poor defense by Phillips to allow Florent so much latitude, poor defense to stuff the tackle, poor decision making to handball to a team mate flat footed and in a worse situation, poor decision making to blaze down the line to a contest that in all likelihood we should have lost. But he ran a long way, and his work rate was fantastic.

In the 2nd instance, Sydney were rebounding along an open wing from our HF line, Florent ?? ran from inside our F50 to nearly the opposite end of the centre square. Phillips ran a parallel course to him the entire way, never once seeking to close toward Florent who had a couple of bounces and an easy inside F50 disposal. Poor defense by Phillips to not try to at least close the gap on Florent and pressure either his run or the bounces or the disposal. But he ran a long way and his work rate was fantastic.

Actually as much as I love Sidey, I think his speed is based more on positioning and anticipating the play so looks faster than he is.

 

[jackcass]

I’ll give them a Wells.

I'm shocked.

 

[sirlothie]

You completely ignored his positive statistics and in my opinion (and that of the coaches), those outweigh his drawbacks.

Just because he keeps his spot doesn't mean the coaches are happy. Just there's no-one better. Phillips had the ball on the back flank totally unpressured, had 4 clear unmanned short options and somehow kicked it straight onto the chest of an opponent who was also free. Those kind of howlers stick in the mind and he would have got roasted behind closed doors for his butchery no doubt. Turnovers are deadly.

 

[35Daicos]

I can see a few more posts ending up in our new Derailed thread!!

 

[jmac70]

And?

The coaches rate lots of players I don't. Like Langdon, like Reid. But then clearly don't rate players I do, like Daicos. What's your point? I was asked why I don't **** on Will Hoskin-Elliott and I explained why.

I’m confident in the coaches’ view of a player’s worth to the side.

 

[sirlothie]

I’m confident in the coaches’ view of a player’s worth to the side.

Just because a player gets picked is not a glowing endorsement of his infallibility.

 

[jmac70]

Just because a player gets picked is not a glowing endorsement of his infallibility.

Finishing 6th in the Copeland is a bit more than just getting picked.

 

[sirlothie]

Not my proudest wank. Not noble of me. And not in the john.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Your irrational hatred of Langdon is amusing, he loses one contest on the wing so he's responsible for losing the entire match. If you're going to assign blame, have a look at our midfield that decided to go on an early vacation.

All I can say is thank god you're not our list manager.

I've blamed the midfield for the loss many times. But that doesn't change the fact that Langdon kick started their game and was involved in the finishing blow.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Finishing 6th in the Copeland is a bit more than just getting picked.

lol the Copeland isn't voted on by the coaches

 

[sirlothie]

Finishing 6th in the Copeland is a bit more than just getting picked.

Do you think that means he's our 6th best player? I'd say about 15th.

 

[jmac70]

lol the Copeland isn't voted on by the coaches

Really? Interested to know who does the voting. Please explain.

 

[jmac70]

Do you think that means he's our 6th best player? I'd say about 15th.

He was last season.

 

[sirlothie]

He was last season.

It suits your argument.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

Really? Interested to know who does the voting. Please explain.

Oh wait...I might be getting mixed up with a different award.

Which one is the players voting and which one is the coaches voting? I know there's the coahces Award which is the 2 coaches after each game. There's the MVP which I think is the players of the comp. Is the BnF the coaches or players? Don't the players vote on something with us?

edit. Wait, As of 2017 it's been the 5 coaches, so maybe it was the players before that. I thought I remembered it being the players

 

[Black_White]

Really? Interested to know who does the voting. Please explain.

The Copeland Trophy voting system

1. Each player is allocated one vote for each game in which he is selected to represent the Collingwood Football Club.

2. Up to 20 votes per game can be allocated to the best players as judged by the Collingwood Match Committee. Votes are awarded based on the average vote of all members of the Match Committee.

3. In the event that two or more players finish with the same number of votes then the player who has played in the least amount of games takes the higher position. If these players have played the same number of games then the player who has polled the greater number of “high value” votes will take the higher position.