Analysis Derek Hine leaves the Pies

[SchuPie]

He also rated aish higher than cripps. But a lot of others did too. Such a shame - that draft - in lots of ways

I watched Aish play a champs game for SA the year before he was eligible and I thought he was going to go top 2

 

[ksardog]

I watched Aish play a champs game for SA the year before he was eligible and I thought he was going to go top 2

im sure Aish played as a 16yr old in Norwoods senior premiership side, even then though, i thought he was a vanilla type player, no outstanding feature to his game, just a reliable team member who would be in your top 10-15 player range of your squad. no real weapons

 

[Albert Parker]

Data?

How about evidence? Collingwood didn't recruit a big-bodied ruckman, even though there were numerous opportunities over the prior 10 years, until Bucks joined the coaching panel.

All three of these things actually happened:

1. Mick did not recruit a big-bodied ruckman between 2000-2009
2. Bucks joined the coaching panel in 2009
3. Collingwood recruited Darren Jolly in 2009

Feel free to provide data to refute my evidence.

Well, I spoke to Ray Buckley, Nathan's father at training one day.
He used to be a ruckman for Footscray Reserves.
When we were expressing frustration and talking about Grundy's approach of tapping to his own feet and the fact they had A Rocca serving as ruck coach, Ray declared that he didn't think Nathan and Banger Harvey (midfield coach at the time) really valued rucks. He noted that neither, as players, had really played under good ruckman and perhaps didn't appreciate their influence.

 

[LuckyLee]

The first half of Hine’s career at Collingwood was much more successful that the second half, so it was probably time for a change. But we wouldn’t have won the [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]] flag without his earlier selections, so we’ll always be in Dekka’s debt for that.

That [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]-[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]][emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]-[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]] team was the fastest and most fun to watch version of Collingwood that I have seen over the past [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]] years. (Although [emoji[emoji6][emoji6]]-[emoji[emoji6][emoji6]] version was the most thrilling/nerve-wracking.)


Sent from my iPhone using BigFooty.com

 

[Harry O]

I reckon it will be Sheppard, he was in the driving seat from what I saw draft night.

With hopefully a strong 2IC poached from elsewhere to replace the Shepherd role

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Well, I spoke to Ray Buckley, Nathan's father at training one day.
He used to be a ruckman...

Ray declared that he didn't think Nathan... really valued rucks.

Probably something to read between the lines about there.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Wonder if we have any intention of replacing him since the current plan seems to be replace nobody

Who haven't we replaced?

The process to replace Graham Wright is ongoing, and we know that, but literally everyone else has been replaced already.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Who haven't we replaced?

The process to replace Graham Wright is ongoing, and we know that, but literally everyone else has been replaced already.

Need to replace Hine too. But his departure was only announced this week.

 

[Mark W]

Data?

How about evidence? Collingwood didn't recruit a big-bodied ruckman, even though there were numerous opportunities over the prior 10 years, until Bucks joined the coaching panel.

All three of these things actually happened:

1. Mick did not recruit a big-bodied ruckman between 2000-2009
2. Bucks joined the coaching panel in 2009
3. Collingwood recruited Darren Jolly in 2009

Feel free to provide data to refute my evidence.

That’s not convincing evidence. You have made 3 observations but provided no evidence that they are causally linked… only that they are co-incident

 

[Jelly Bean]

Data?

How about evidence? Collingwood didn't recruit a big-bodied ruckman, even though there were numerous opportunities over the prior 10 years, until Bucks joined the coaching panel.

All three of these things actually happened:

1. Mick did not recruit a big-bodied ruckman between 2000-2009
2. Bucks joined the coaching panel in 2009
3. Collingwood recruited Darren Jolly in 2009

Feel free to provide data to refute my evidence.

You've just laid out some solid data points to justify your hypothesis, although I could argue that a) Mick did recruit Steve McKee to play for us through the early 2000s. And he also recruited Chris Bryan prior to 2009, and Leigh Brown.
Also, while 2 and 3 are accurate, I don't see any evidence of causation. Ball was also recruited in 2009. Buckley (as you've pointed out) joined the panel in 2009. Do you feel that Buckley therefore pushed to recruit Ball? Also, you are ruling out the lessons that MM would have learned over the prior 3 years around the insufficiency of his current ruck crop.

I feel like Jolly's recruitment was even deeper than than just new assistant coaching joining and arguing for a player and more about a club wide game plan adjustment and adding players that augment the new gameplan.

1. MM realised he needed a new game plan prior to 2010 and structured his new plan around the 'forward press'.
2. For the forward press to be successful, all opposition kicks need to be under pressure (to set up for the intercept markers 50m behind play).
3. For there to be pressure on the kickers, the core ball movement needed to be highly contested and highly stoppage based, including the moving of the ball foward around the boundary line predominantly.
4. To succeed in a highly stoppage based gameplan, you need a strong ruckman and a strong inside midfield.
5. The recruiting team (may or not have included the brand new assistant coach) identified Darren Jolly and Luke Ball as two additions to the team to help enable the new game plan that he devised.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Need to replace Hine too. But his departure was only announced this week.

Adam Shepard, who's been at the club since 2012, is taking over from Hine, and as it turns out, we've replaced Wright now too.

Far too much sooking about what are actually entirely normal hiring processes on this board.

 

[ElliottsMaggies]

Adam Shepard, who's been at the club since 2012, is taking over from Hine, and as it turns out, we've replaced Wright now too.

Far too much sooking about what are actually entirely normal hiring processes on this board.

Agree

..and yep, The Age article suggested Shepard could be promoted. Very happy about Gardiner's appointment.

 

[Fat Jesus]

Agree

..and yep, The Age article suggested Shepard could be promoted. Very happy about Gardiner's appointment.

Shepard Pies

 

[76woodenspooners]

Getting Luke Ball didn't hurt.

In two ways …

(1) Subtracting him from St Kilda’s list
(2) Adding him to ours

 

[76woodenspooners]

Data?

How about evidence? Collingwood didn't recruit a big-bodied ruckman, even though there were numerous opportunities over the prior 10 years, until Bucks joined the coaching panel.

All three of these things actually happened:

1. Mick did not recruit a big-bodied ruckman between 2000-2009
2. Bucks joined the coaching panel in 2009
3. Collingwood recruited Darren Jolly in 2009

Feel free to provide data to refute my evidence.

The fact we paid Pick 1 for Josh Fraser and Pick 14 for Cameron Wood indicates that we certainly valued ruckmen under Mick Malthouse.

 

[sr36]

The fact we paid Pick 1 for Josh Fraser and Pick 14 for Cameron Wood indicates that we certainly valued ruckmen under Mick Malthouse.

And downgraded 3 to 7 to get McKee. A second round pick I think on Richards. Then traded 14 and another pick for Jolly.

We spent a lot on rucks when MM was in charge.

 

[Jelly Bean]

The fact we paid Pick 1 for Josh Fraser and Pick 14 for Cameron Wood indicates that we certainly valued ruckmen under Mick Malthouse.

And traded pick 3 in a deal for Steven McKee...

 

[ppoiter]

The fact we paid Pick 1 for Josh Fraser and Pick 14 for Cameron Wood indicates that we certainly valued ruckmen under Mick Malthouse.

Was too young to be a draft watcher back then but I thought Fraser would have been the obvious pick 1 for any team

 

[doofdoof]

You've just laid out some solid data points to justify your hypothesis, although I could argue that a) Mick did recruit Steve McKee to play for us through the early 2000s. And he also recruited Chris Bryan prior to 2009, and Leigh Brown.
Also, while 2 and 3 are accurate, I don't see any evidence of causation. Ball was also recruited in 2009. Buckley (as you've pointed out) joined the panel in 2009. Do you feel that Buckley therefore pushed to recruit Ball? Also, you are ruling out the lessons that MM would have learned over the prior 3 years around the insufficiency of his current ruck crop.

I feel like Jolly's recruitment was even deeper than than just new assistant coaching joining and arguing for a player and more about a club wide game plan adjustment and adding players that augment the new gameplan.

1. MM realised he needed a new game plan prior to 2010 and structured his new plan around the 'forward press'.
2. For the forward press to be successful, all opposition kicks need to be under pressure (to set up for the intercept markers 50m behind play).
3. For there to be pressure on the kickers, the core ball movement needed to be highly contested and highly stoppage based, including the moving of the ball foward around the boundary line predominantly.
4. To succeed in a highly stoppage based gameplan, you need a strong ruckman and a strong inside midfield.
5. The recruiting team (may or not have included the brand new assistant coach) identified Darren Jolly and Luke Ball as two additions to the team to help enable the new game plan that he devised.

Some equally solid data points to justify your hypothesis. Still plenty of questions.

1. MM recruited a number of rucks during his tenure, but none of them were the proven bid-bodied own the ruck contest types until Jolly
2. How do you know MM "realised" he needed a new game plan rather than took advice from his new assistant?
3. The ball movement around the boundary looked an awful lot like the Buckley years (for better and worse)

For those pointing out MM's ruck recruitment, my points is he did not recruit a proven, mature, big-bodied ruckman until Bucks arrived.

Here are Mick's ruckman .....

Josh Fraser: mauled by Keating in consecutive GRand Finals because he didn't have a big-bodied tap ruckman partner to compete with Keating
McKee: paid plenty to get him, but was raw and not proven like Jolly. Averaged 9 HO a game in 2003
Guy Richards: project, Fail
David Fanning: Fail
Cameron Cloke: um, no.
Cameron Wood: again, unproven potential which never developed. Fail
Leigh Brown: big-bodied and mature, but definitely a swingman not tall enough to be a full time ruck at 6' 4" - averaged 4 HO per game
Chris Bryan: never a full time ruckman, but was closer in terms of body strength. Just not his optimal skill set.

Jolly was 200cm and 108kgs, but also proven and mature and a dominant ruckman first and foremost.

Jolly had 579 HO in 2010.

Next highest in MM's tenure as coach was Josh in 2006 with 341. Every other year, the leader was 300 HO or less.

Jolly was clearly an outlier, an exception, in Collingwood's ruck recruiting over Mick's entire time at Collingwood.

He also made a massive difference in 2010, which we all celebrated.

 

[Jelly Bean]

2. How do you know MM "realised" he needed a new game plan rather than took advice from his new assistant?

He talks about it here:

Malthouse had fine-tuned aspects of his preferred game model, basing much of the club’s frenetic pressure on – of all things – the Roman army formation and German World War II strategist Field Marshall Erwin Rommel.

He said after Collingwood had won the 2010 flag by 56 points: “I looked at the Roman legion, which is in a box formation and very hard to penetrate. The box can get smaller and smaller, but you’ve always got fighting capabilities all the way through, which we’ve pushed in front of our opponents for the last two years.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

And traded pick 3 in a deal for Steven McKee...

We moved down from 3 to 7 in a deal that brought us a ruckman that played in a GF we lost by 9 points. He would've continued to get a gig for a while longer, but they changed the rules to adjudicate McKee's rucking style out of the game completely.

There's been few players in sporting history more specifically screwed over by a single rule change than Steve McKee.

And it's not McKee's fault that we picked Danny Roach at #7 instead of Joel Corey, Luke McPharlin, Darren Glass or Bob Murphy, all of whom went in the next 6 picks, making it seem like we ditched pick #3 for nothing. We probably would've drafted Danny Roach at #3 anyway.

 

[Kirby]

We moved down from 3 to 7 in a deal that brought us a ruckman that played in a GF we lost by 9 points. He would've continued to get a gig for a while longer, but they changed the rules to adjudicate McKee's rucking style out of the game completely.

There's been few players in sporting history more specifically screwed over by a single rule change than Steve McKee.

And it's not McKee's fault that we picked Danny Roach at #7 instead of Joel Corey, Luke McPharlin, Darren Glass or Bob Murphy, all of whom went in the next 6 picks, making it seem like we ditched pick #3 for nothing. We probably would've drafted Danny Roach at #3 anyway.

Please never mention Danny Roach.

 

[manicpie]

Please never mention Danny Roach.

The rose that never looked like blooming

 

[Kirby]

The rose that never looked like blooming

It was the end of the Judkins era shortly after that.

 

[Mollythedolly]

The rose that never looked like blooming

Was looking promising till a back injury derailed his career.