Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[maggiethecat]

Is shingles a painful affliction like it is for humans?

Yep and I’m terribly grumpy and brains a little foggy and I’m sorry I didn’t mean to pick on you , I enjoy your posts as you are very informed but I was getting frazzled yesterday trying to follow it all… my apologies

 

[gymjam]

I think it’s possible FM wasn’t afraid of losing custody, but that it would delay the adoption temporarily or permanently. FM didn’t want to have to deal with the bio family anymore or comply with the rules and scrutiny put on foster parents.

I have often thought about if Young Hope or DOCS had known FM was masking very high levels of stress and offered her some sort of respite similar to that which is offered to carer's (general public not involved in the fostering system) - a weekend for the 'cared' person to be cared for in a facility or have someone attend the home, and the 'normal' carer have a weekend away (or sometimes longer periods) in supplied accommodation of choosing, would that have affected the subsequent decisions made by the court regarding the adoption process through to final outcome?

 

[Underarrest_]

I have often thought about if Young Hope or DOCS had known FM was masking very high levels of stress and offered her some sort of respite similar to that which is offered to carer's (general public not involved in the fostering system) - a weekend for the 'cared' person to be cared for in a facility or have someone attend the home, and the 'normal' carer have a weekend away (or sometimes longer periods) in supplied accommodation of choosing, would that have affected the subsequent decisions made by the court regarding the adoption process through to final outcome?

I’m not sure if FM was masking her stress as she has voiced this in emails to Young Hope although maybe not o the full extent.
I agree though, maybe Young Hope had offered FM some other supports
and visits with bio parents were still going to go ahead and everything was starting to unravel for FM.

 

[CodyRose]

We are pretty sure then that Peter truck driver was on Batar Creek rd around the time that FM could have been there. He was observant and remembered some traffic, but not a Mazda. So puts FM drive, or drive time, or destination into question.

I guess they asked him specifically about dark coloured Mazdas he may have seen anywhere in the area. So, we do not get to hear the question but we hear the answer, about the blond lady in the Mazda with poor parking skills, which seems unimportant. It does show he is observant and he knows what a Mazda looks like. (Though i guess at this point everyone is over the blonde lady in the Mazda in Kew)

Not convinced at all about the 2 cars on Benaroon. FM is the only one who alleges they were there AFAIK. Even FGM says she did not see the cars. No one knew William would be there that morning (except the people in the cattery).

Just out of interest why was Peter truck driver on Radio Ray Hadley, and it was soon after William disappeared? Should that have happened?

Did New Hope agency know William was there?

 

[js47]

The 12 th was a disaster waiting to happen and had been building up for a long time. FM was DISTRACTED to the point of exhaustion and it was her own fault .
Short term relationship
High pressure careers.
House renovations
Extended family issues
William and LT
Purchasing new vehicles
House hold duties
Travelling in traffic constantly
Health issues of the FF
Was she going through menopause

Really big issues that take up a lot of time psychological physical energy
THIS WAS A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN
The FM was not coping and there was a very big risk of both psychological and physical risk to those children.
She just wanted to sleep in.
She was not functioning and it does not matter if William walked was abducted or was dealt with in another manner.
This woman is intelligent it is in her ball court to say stop enough in enough. She should have reconsidered her abilities to care for those two precious children.
No she then added adoption to the list. Guilty in my eyes.

 

[js47]

Oh! Yes I forgot travelling overseas.
Manic behaviour.

 

[shorsky]

I’m pretty sure most 3 year old boys present as hyperactive, which is probably why the paediatricians wait a little while longer before making their diagnosis!!

ADHD requires a specialist diagnoses and does not just point to ‘hyperactivity’. There

I don't disagree that his behaviour could have been due to environment. That doesn't mean the environment he was born into was 'better' than the one he ended up in. The parents were not providing an appropriate home and had no intention of changing and I'm not sure they would have taken on board anything FACS suggested to improve. The children were in a very poor situation.

The older couple had apparently fostered quite a few children without negative impact (as far as we are aware), had stable jobs, good incomes and were keen to have children "of their own". It probably seemed an ideal placement.

There was no doubt the foster parents were having difficulty, but outwardly, they pretended everything was rosy. Whether WT's behaviour was worse than other 3yo's is not something we can judge, except FM said to Ben that she was struggling.

Whether FM "disapeared him" is yet to be proven, but it is an allegation by the Police, with apparently no evidence to support it. Similarly, there is no evidence to support abduction. Neither is there any reason to believe he wandered off into the bush and was never seen again.

In light of what happened with his sister after he went missing, it appears that his foster parents were most likely not appropriate people to take care of children. As you say, you can't blame the child for it's behaviour in this situation, but we can suspect (although we do not know) if WT was similarly mistreated by them, and whether this was the reason he 'went missing'.

There is so much ‘unknown’ in this case.

IMO it starts with the real reasons for removing FD and then William from their parents.

It’s my understanding that when William was medically assessed on removal, he was found to be in good health and well cared for.

He had young parents who imo loved their children deeply, but also who were trying to deal with their own demons.
Some support for them would have been the appropriate course of action, again in my opinion.
Noting that she went on to raise 2 other sons in a short space of time after William’s removal, despite the emotional destruction brought upon her by the removal of her first-borns, and the issues that brought about (seems there may not have been a ‘demand’ for those two !)
And now she has another 2 little girls ( I think one was with her at the inquest last week)

 

[31550]

If it wasn’t a balcony accident (which police might be proposing to seek the truth because they have evidence of a balcony fall) but assuming FM has pushed William off the balcony, it would make more sense to say it was an accident and call 000. Who was going to know?
The only other possibility is that William has other injuries which might show up.

Not the only other possibility.
I don't believe there is evidence of a balcony fall. Where is it?

 

[31550]

Thankyou! Starting on 8/9/2014 and stepping backwards for say 2 weeks:

The email communication trail that occurred on 8/9/2014 and the detail that has come out as to what this involved, tells me FM was under enormous stress., but was this stress caused by FM not believing she was getting her own way.

Details about the 8th email trail recently released in the Box podcast, points to FM pushing for the biological parents' access to desist and she had stated previously in sworn statements that after each access visit she experienced major issues controlling William (in particular) and the FD - were these major issues ever proven? Note: the last access visit the biological mother had with the children was on 21/8/2014 - I understand that the biological father was unable to attend because of his work commitments. This is the access visit that showed William with a (healing) bruised face and Atwood had forewarned the biological mother and the children address her as bio-mum.

A question please: when did FM advise Young Hope that she was intending to take the children to Kendall? Was it during his email trail on 8th or later in that week?

Then when you consider that it came out that FM had disconnected a sim card from the network on the 8th as well, that is concerning (to me).

Then the fact that Ben Atwood had attended the FF and FM home on a visit that was not pre-scheduled or advised before his arrival - and that is unusual, on Friday 5th (time of arrival unknown nor is length of visit) - and Atwood had noted he found the FF still in his pjs sitting at the kitchen bench counter looking very unwell. Apparently FF explanation was 'it was self inflicted' as a consequence of something that he was involved in on the night of the 4th. Atwood also noted William was crawling all over him immediately he entered the house. No mention of FM or FD being present as far as I am aware.

Given that during this visit on the 5th and communicating in person with FF, it is likely the pre-scheduled appointment for 12/9/2014 at 1.30pm Atwood had made to speak with a member of the DOCS adoption team was discussed. I think it likely that pre-scheduled meeting on 12th would have been a topic of conversation (many times) over the weekend of 6 and 7/9/2014. And then 8/9/2014 comes with FM displaying very stressed communication behaviour or was it 'demanding/controlling behaviour'?

I will have to check my notes for the following dates: I recall that Atwood had first told FF and FM about the pre-scheduled hook-up with the DOCS adoption team on 25 or 26/8/2014 - after he had sent an email to the DOCS team. It came out that FM had again raised her concerns about both children's behaviour difficulties during the last bio-logical biological mother's access visit which was on 21/8/2014. When she 1st met Atwood at the access location, she had hand signaled (by placing her hand under her chin) to show the level of hyperactivity FD had displayed on her way to the access visit, and said things to Atwood about William's behaviour.

It seems to me when you look at the events connected to the initial adoption hook-up scheduling and events that followed something changed with FM; it seems to me there was something building up and no one had recognized it. I don't think it has been released who FM was communicating with on the 8th - I have not seen Atwood's name mentioned - and would like to be made aware of how the email communications worked. Was the same person involved who received and then answered FM's emails? Was this person in the Young Hope team that Atwood was attached to? Or was the person connected to DOCS? Was there communication via telephone as well?

I don't know where you get all this info but seems you have access to resources we don't.
All this is disturbing. If bio parents have been granted access visits by the Family Court then a judge has ruled that it is in the child's interest for these to happen. Foster parents should be doing their best to facilitate such visits and make sure the children are presented on time and in good health so that they can interact with their parents as the Court has ordered. It's unconscionable for foster parents to try to manipulate the children or curtail or impinge on these visits. If they don't want to deliver and collect the children,they should arrange with FACS to do so, so that they don't have to interact with the bios. This interference and white anting of the bio parents is disgraceful.
Perhaps the FM was concerned William or his sister might reveal information to their bio parents about their treatment which they didn't want disclosed? This is a more believable reason for the FM wanting to change the Orders a Family Court judge has made.

 

[Earls Smother]

The 12 th was a disaster waiting to happen and had been building up for a long time. FM was DISTRACTED to the point of exhaustion and it was her own fault .
Short term relationship
High pressure careers.
House renovations
Extended family issues
William and LT
Purchasing new vehicles
House hold duties
Travelling in traffic constantly
Health issues of the FF
Was she going through menopause

Really big issues that take up a lot of time psychological physical energy
THIS WAS A DISASTER WAITING TO HAPPEN
The FM was not coping and there was a very big risk of both psychological and physical risk to those children.
She just wanted to sleep in.
She was not functioning and it does not matter if William walked was abducted or was dealt with in another manner.
This woman is intelligent it is in her ball court to say stop enough in enough. She should have reconsidered her abilities to care for those two precious children.
No she then added adoption to the list. Guilty in my eyes.

How do any of those things make it more likely that someone can do what is alleged?

I'm not talking about the initial act, but the ability to expertly carry out the disposal without making a mistake? If someone was stressed to bits and not functioning, they are not going to make smart decisions. They are very, very likely to **** up, putting it bluntly.

If you want to use stressors to explain a crazy act, you need to counterbalance that, with considering how it would affect what she would do afterwards. How does she go from what you have described, to a cool, calculating machine, that can have carried out the post-death actions so well, as to avoid any police detection? Of anything, anywhere?

 

[shorsky]

The FD entered the FM AND FF care one week after William. FD had been trialed on 2 separate one day/overnight occasions prior to William's entry on 16 March 2012, FD was one week after this date.

Umm. I’m not sure that time frame is correct. I think FD was already there, but happy to be corrected.

 

[shorsky]

Especially cats with shingles!

I feel for you Maggie, take care and I hope for a speedy recovery for you.

 

[Underarrest_]

I have made a personal note in my file that the 29th was the date connected to Atwood receiving a reply from the DOCS adoption team after he sent his initial email to them. The reply from memory (I need to fire-up the old workhorse computer eek) gave him the contact he was to communicate (later) with.

29/8/2014 is the eve that photos were uploaded to FF Instagram page. They featured his vehicle and part-view of his trail bike and him holding what appears to be an ice cold glass of beer. He is quite 'dusty' with weekend beard. A caption advises he was in Blackrock Qld when the photos were taken.

He had also uploaded (or someone did) a few photos from their recent Bali trip captioned 'Kudeta'.

29th is also very close to the date the photo that was taken at East Killara with the Sunrise show playing on a tv screen in the background, the timing of which (by meta data comparison) was subsequently used to 'verify' the corrected times.

Blackrock? FF apparently gets around.
Long road trip for a trail ride and beer.

 

[maggiethecat]

I feel for you Maggie, take care and I hope for a speedy recovery for you.

That’s very kind , thank you

 

[js47]

How do any of those things make it more likely that someone can do what is alleged?

I'm not talking about the initial act, but the ability to expertly carry out the disposal without making a mistake? If someone was stressed to bits and not functioning, they are not going to make smart decisions. They are very, very likely to **** up, putting it bluntly.

If you want to use stressors to explain a crazy act, you need to counterbalance that, with considering how it would affect what she would do afterwards. How does she go from what you have described, to a cool, calculating machine, that can have carried out the post-death actions so well, as to avoid any police detection? Of anything, anywhere?

Because she had help. Some one with a vested interest in maintaining her standing in the community. I do not believe William was driven away in the car.

 

[Wallace52]

Because she had help. Some one with a vested interest in maintaining her standing in the community. I do not believe William was driven away in the car.

Of course she had help.

 

[Earls Smother]

Because she had help. Some one with a vested interest in maintaining her standing in the community. I do not believe William was driven away in the car.

Then why is the police theory based around her and where she drove? Why do they want her on the stand at the next tranche, rather than the "helper"?

 

[Wallace52]

Then why is the police theory based around her and where she drove? Why do they want her on the stand at the next tranche, rather than the "helper"?

It’s a mystery. Maybe they have evidence that we don’t know about?

Their theory doesn’t make much sense to me at this point.

The motive in particular, is nonsensical. What kind of parent doesn’t call 000 when their child has an accident?

It doesn’t make any sense.

 

[Wallace52]

I think it’s possible FM wasn’t afraid of losing custody, but that it would delay the adoption temporarily or permanently. FM didn’t want to have to deal with the bio family anymore or comply with the rules and scrutiny put on foster parents.

Preach.

 

[31550]

Then why is the police theory based around her and where she drove? Why do they want her on the stand at the next tranche, rather than the "helper"?

Because it is her story that she took the drive, alone, looking for William. They need to test the truth of this story because nobody witnessed it so there is doubt about where she went and when. If her testimony does not align with facts and sworn testimony of other witnesses, then it may be demonstrable she lied about the drive. If the drive was not to look for William then what was its purpose?
Whether or not there is a helper, and who the helper is, may be revealed. If the drive went elsewhere or was made by someone else, or was earlier than previously stated, it could reveal many more details.

 

[Wallace52]

You know what I think??

Like the police have a theory, I also have a theory. I’m going to outline my theory, and I could be totally wrong but it’s just a theory.

I think maybe the FF has turned police informant. Allow me to explain my thinking….

He’s the only one who would know what happened, right?

He’s done a deal with the cops. IMO. And he’s acting the part until the cops have enough to put the FM away.

And part of the deal is that he wasn’t involved and it was an “accident.”

That’s the best theory I’ve come across in a while.* takes bow*

Also: He got a closed court for the lying trial. All media locked out for most hearings. The FM didn’t get that.

He got off on his assault charge.

FM was convicted with assault.

The police said
“we know where, we know when, we know how” in relation to the FM and William’s body.

It’s got to be the FF. No one else could be such a strong witness. Their concrete info could not be based on a random truck driver. It’s got to be the FF that is the mystery witness, not the truck driver.

And before you say “well FF is not informant material,” we know (thank you Dan Box!) that Gary Jubelin used Tony Jones as a police informant in prison whilst questioning the falsely-accused Bill Spedding. We know that.

 

[Wallace52]

it is her story that she took the drive, alone, looking for William. They need to test the truth of this story because nobody witnessed it so there is doubt about where she went and when. If her testimony does not align with facts and sworn testimony of other witnesses, then it may be demonstrable she lied about the drive. If the drive was not to look for William then what was its purpose?

I would say the purpose of the drive was to throw William’s shoes away. And maybe to chuck his spider man clothes into one of the bins that was out for rubbish collection? Possibly?

I’ll bet his body was still at the house at 48 Benaroon Drive in one of the many places that the cops didn’t bother checking in the initial search, and then perhaps the FF disposed of his body very very early the next morning, in his car. We know the FF went out searching very early the next day. Was it 6am or earlier? Before anyone else was awake.

It would explain the ambulance / panic attack situation. He may have genuinely freaked out at
(1) what (or whom) lay in the house as they slept and
(2) what he was required to do the next morning

*** this is just a theory. I accept I may be completely wrong.

 

[31550]

You know what I think??

Like the police have a theory, I also have a theory. I’m going to outline my theory, and I could be totally wrong but it’s just a theory.

I think maybe the FF has turned police informant. Allow me to explain my thinking….

He’s the only one who would know what happened, right?

He’s done a deal with the cops. IMO. And he’s acting the part until the cops have enough to put the FM away.

And part of the deal is that he wasn’t involved and it was an “accident.”

That’s the best theory I’ve come across in a while.* takes bow*

Also: He got a closed court for the lying trial. All media locked out for most hearings. The FM didn’t get that.

He got off on his assault charge.

FM was convicted with assault.

The police said
“we know where, we know when, we know how” in relation to the FM and William’s body.

It’s got to be the FF. No one else could be such a strong witness. Their concrete info could not be based on a random truck driver. It’s got to be the FF that is the mystery witness, not the truck driver.

And before you say “well FF is not informant material,” we know (thank you Dan Box!) that Gary Jubelin used Tony Jones as a police informant in prison whilst questioning the falsely-accused Bill Spedding. We know that.

Interesting theory that FF is an informant.
But I don't buy it.
What is the motive for disposing of the body? Why not just go with the accident?

I believe the body was disposed of because the fosters were concerned that an autopsy would reveal something they didn't want known. This would involve FF as much as FM.

 

[Kurve]

You know what I think??

Like the police have a theory, I also have a theory. I’m going to outline my theory, and I could be totally wrong but it’s just a theory.

I think maybe the FF has turned police informant. Allow me to explain my thinking….

He’s the only one who would know what happened, right?

He’s done a deal with the cops. IMO. And he’s acting the part until the cops have enough to put the FM away.

And part of the deal is that he wasn’t involved and it was an “accident.”

That’s the best theory I’ve come across in a while.* takes bow*

Also: He got a closed court for the lying trial. All media locked out for most hearings. The FM didn’t get that.

He got off on his assault charge.

FM was convicted with assault.

The police said
“we know where, we know when, we know how” in relation to the FM and William’s body.

It’s got to be the FF. No one else could be such a strong witness. Their concrete info could not be based on a random truck driver. It’s got to be the FF that is the mystery witness, not the truck driver.

And before you say “well FF is not informant material,” we know (thank you Dan Box!) that Gary Jubelin used Tony Jones as a police informant in prison whilst questioning the falsely-accused Bill Spedding. We know that.

Yes, this theory was proposed around the time the fosters were questioned at the NSWCC.

 

[js47]

Then why is the police theory based around her and where she drove? Why do they want her on the stand at the next tranche, rather than the "helper"?

You don’t know why they want her on the stand . Let’s wait and see.