Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[31550]

Of course something sinister has happened. But there are still over 700 POI's and you focus on 1 and only readily accept discussion around that 1.

Do I think he was taken in a car very quickly? Yes. Is is possible he was taken on foot initially (say into number 35), then further moved by car later? Yes.

Did Mr. Cruel drive his Holden Vacationer into the girl's bedrooms?

Did the Beaumont abductor drive a yellow Volkswagon into the parkland at Glenelg Beach?

Were the Adelaide Oval girls taken by a car that drove into the grandstand?

All I said was "with a vehicle". I never said he was put DIRECTLY into a vehicle.
That was a conclusion YOU jumped to.
Clearly IF he was nabbed, he was nabbed by someone WITH A VEHICLE.
You yourself have now admitted that, but you wanted to make a big argument because I said it.
Seriously? Why?

 

[Earls Smother]

Most neutral witnesses have been very consistent in their testimony.

The most inconsistent witnesses are the FM and FGM.

Do you have examples of a neutral witness being inconsistent?

You seem to very forgiving of the witnesses who should remember details, but critical of others. Why is that?

We would expect all the various neutral witnesses do have DIFFERENT views of things. They were all in different places at different times and were not involved in events concerning William. But that doesn't mean they are inconsistent. It's the way these are woven into the narrative which alters.

On the other hand the FM and FGM were pretty much there the whole time in pretty much one or two places (supposedly). So why are their own accounts of events SO inconsistent, even within themselves? Trauma might be one reason, but after ten years of telling and retelling, we still can't gat a single version consistent within itself.

Crabbes 30 minute discrepancy. No-one else hears this vehicle/s.

None of the cars seen by Pete B, Ron C, FM or CCTV seem to match up and give any semblance of multiple versions agreeing with each other.

A lot of people have accepted that the Foster's info is erratic. They were under stress and it needs to be accepted that they weren't necessarily lying. The case doesn't swing on their jumbled version of events IMO.

 

[31550]

It was a relative who was there on Thursday. FGM was recovering from an illness. Others were helping to take care of her. I do not have a link as proof of who was there.

FGM did not mention a relative visiting in her walkthrough. Is this relative visit documented publicly, or has it been suppressed via one of the NPOs?

 

[InTheBleachers]

FGM did not mention a relative visiting in her walkthrough. Is this relative visit documented publicly, or has it been suppressed via one of the NPOs?

FGM's walkthrough was focused on Friday morning. I had edited my post to say I will go back through notes when I have time to see what my source is.

 

[31550]

Crabbes 30 minute discrepancy. No-one else hears this vehicle/s.

None of the cars seen by Pete B, Ron C, FM or CCTV seem to match up and give any semblance of multiple versions agreeing with each other.

A lot of people have accepted that the Foster's info is erratic. They were under stress and it needs to be accepted that they weren't necessarily lying. The case doesn't swing on their jumbled version of events IMO.

Ok so each of the Crabb's reported a different time (one said 10 minutes after they got home, the other said about 30 minutes after they got home.) This is a discrepancy (actually 20, not 30 minutes difference if we are being pedantic), not an inconsistency. Neither of them changed the time they thought they heard the car. So it's possible that they each heard a different car, or it's possible/probable they estimated the time differently, and the car was approx 20 minutes (plus or minus 10) after they got home. We don't expect them to be watching the clock do we? You are trying to discredit the Crabbs now? Why? They heard a car - one of them thinks it was around 9:40 - the other thinks it was around 10:00 - that's handy information, not inconsistent at all.

Why should the cars seen by Peter, FM, or Chapman match each other? Peter saw what he saw. Chapman saw what he saw. There is no reason why they should have seen the same thing. That is not inconsistency. Peter did not change the black Camry to a blue sedan, or change the time he saw the vehicles. Neither did Chapman. They both gave consistent accounts within themselves of what they saw.

On the other hand, FM firstly saw no cars, then two cars, then a third. At differing times in the narrative. And at times when Anne Maree, or Savage, or the Crabbs should also have seen them, but they didn't. FGM never saw any cars either. This is inconsistency.

Witness statements as I have said before are notoriously unreliable.

Again, I don't know why you are trying to discredit neutral witnesses like Chapman, the Crabbs, and Peter who are simply trying to tell what they saw. And so forgiving of the FM who cannot give a consistent version.

 

[jason_recliner]

Jubelin said so, more than once.

Before the million dollar reward could be posted, the brass asked if they'd absolutely been cleared so he went through the motions of interviewing them and having a bug placed in their car so he could monitor their conversation after it. So he was covered and gave his reassurances to the brass.

Then the reward was approved.

That's unusually and uncharacteristically slack for a highly experienced, highly effective homicide detective. You might have misinterpreted his comments i.e. he did those things but those things aren't all he did. Unlikely he'd vouch for their $1m merely on "going through the motions".

 

[LRitz]

Wendy Hudson did the 1st interview on the 12th was she trained as a specialist child interviewer?

WH got the sleeping arrangement bedrooms mixed up in her report.

How did Wendy Hudson get mixed up? We don't know which rooms they slept in. We only know what FM alleged where they slept.
In FGM walkthrough she is vague about bedrooms - " two would have been in there .I really don't know who was sleeping with whom exactly......I think I have feeling that FF was with William....". I don't think FGM is specific which of the two rooms William was in. (Reference for FGM walkthrough part 1 page 293 # 7304. if you want to see how confusing it was that morning at Benaroon drive)

Only a minor point, but, it is easy to lock in to part of the narrative and make that fact, when there is no proof either way. IMO I don't see how we can ever find out where William slept and unlikely this will add to solving his disappearance.

 

[Kurve]

That's unusually and uncharacteristically slack for a highly experienced, highly effective homicide detective. You might have misinterpreted his comments i.e. he did those things but those things aren't all he did. Unlikely he'd vouch for their $1m merely on "going through the motions".

I did not misinterpret his comments.

Jubelin was handed the case at a time when the fosters had been cleared and he was going in other directions. He was not even looking at them as potentially involved until the million dollar reward was in play and he was asked to give his assurances they weren't.

IMO it was those assurances that eventually factored in to costing him his job even if the official reason was something else.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Crabbes 30 minute discrepancy. No-one else hears this vehicle/s.

None of the cars seen by Pete B, Ron C, FM or CCTV seem to match up and give any semblance of multiple versions agreeing with each other.

A lot of people have accepted that the Foster's info is erratic. They were under stress and it needs to be accepted that they weren't necessarily lying. The case doesn't swing on their jumbled version of events IMO.

I don't accept for one second they weren't lying.. first discussion with AMS sharply FM gives two choices:

1 he hit his head and cant hear me or
2 he's been taken.

Really?...he hit his head as first remark? My twin girls 5-6 were missing for 20 min. At no stage did I think that as first thought. It is a massive COG lie..There are many. Not to mention kicking a child and hitting a child with spoon, mysterious bruises and falls, hands around throat and a drive 5 min after going missing 1.3 klm away. Liar!!!!

97% profile. 500% profile. Repeated lies and abduction hoax testimony. Abuse. Pretty clear to me. What I find staggering is that someone can be oblivious to the obvious

 

[LRitz]

Is it true that FM went around the corner calling out to W..... " Can you see daddy's car?" Is that SMH article true? W then didn't answer.

Is she trying to intimate that that had started the daddy game where he hides and surprises daddy when he returns?

What FM alleges she said is not fact. This is not mentioned with her first statement, as I remember - playing tigers, on the grass, runs around the side of the house, FM tells FGM that she can't see William, FM then looks for William.
This narrative of calling out to William, "can you see daddy's car" is added later. FGM does not mention those words either when William runs around the side of the house.

It is possible that "the looking for daddy" narrative was added, because when William disappeared FD asked where was William. FM has to tell her something. FM can not say he is with Daddy. To answer FD she says William is out the front of the house waiting/looking for Daddy to come home.

 

[Earls Smother]

Ok so each of the Crabb's reported a different time (one said 10 minutes after they got home, the other said about 30 minutes after they got home.) This is a discrepancy (actually 20, not 30 minutes difference if we are being pedantic), not an inconsistency. Neither of them changed the time they thought they heard the car. So it's possible that they each heard a different car, or it's possible/probable they estimated the time differently, and the car was approx 20 minutes (plus or minus 10) after they got home. We don't expect them to be watching the clock do we? You are trying to discredit the Crabbs now? Why? They heard a car - one of them thinks it was around 9:40 - the other thinks it was around 10:00 - that's handy information, not inconsistent at all.

Why should the cars seen by Peter, FM, or Chapman match each other? Peter saw what he saw. Chapman saw what he saw. There is no reason why they should have seen the same thing. That is not inconsistency. Peter did not change the black Camry to a blue sedan, or change the time he saw the vehicles. Neither did Chapman. They both gave consistent accounts within themselves of what they saw.

On the other hand, FM firstly saw no cars, then two cars, then a third. At differing times in the narrative. And at times when Anne Maree, or Savage, or the Crabbs should also have seen them, but they didn't. FGM never saw any cars either. This is inconsistency.

Witness statements as I have said before are notoriously unreliable.

Again, I don't know why you are trying to discredit neutral witnesses like Chapman, the Crabbs, and Peter who are simply trying to tell what they saw. And so forgiving of the FM who cannot give a consistent version.

The other Crabbe said 40 minutes. If you want to try and be a pedantic know-it-all at least get it right.

I have no interest in engaging with you. Please don't respond to my posts in future.

 

[Earls Smother]

I don't accept for one second they weren't lying.. first discussion with AMS sharply FM gives two choices:

1 he hit his head and cant hear me or
2 he's been taken.

Really?...he hit his head as first remark? My twin girls 5-6 were missing for 20 min. At no stage did I think that as first thought. It is a massive COG lie..There are many. Not to mention kicking a child and hitting a child with spoon, mysterious bruises and falls, hands around throat and a drive 5 min after going missing 1.3 klm away. Liar!!!!

97% profile. 500% profile. Repeated lies and abduction hoax testimony. Abuse. Pretty clear to me. What I find staggering is that someone can be oblivious to the obvious

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

 

[Kurve]

The other Crabbe said 40 minutes. If you want to try and be a pedantic know-it-all at least get it right.

I have no interest in engaging with you. Please don't respond to my posts in future.

I suggest you and 31550 use the ignore button.

Thanks.

 

[Earls Smother]

I suggest you and 31550 use the ignore button.

Thanks.

In 5 years I have never used that button, so I'll give it a go.

 

[Kurve]

Let's not forget the reason attention is on the FM right now is because the police put it there and it's this that is the focus of the Coroner's inquiry's last tranche.

It's reasonable to discuss her potential involvement and how that may have unfolded, given for seven years anybody who tried to put any focus there was shut down by various means.

That of course, doesn't mean she was involved so please frame your posts with that in mind.

Thanks.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

You can think so. I think it's utter nonsense and not even close to thought patterns. What you think is an urgent need to FIND them. Nothing more.

 

[31550]

The other Crabbe said 40 minutes. If you want to try and be a pedantic know-it-all at least get it right.

I have no interest in engaging with you. Please don't respond to my posts in future.

Apologies to Kurve but this really needs to be called out.

ES posted this:

09:45 - 09:45 : Mr Crabb hears a car turn around, sounds like posties ( from the inquest ) about 10 mins after getting home

09:59 – 10:07 : PS call Casino hospital, call lasts 8 minutes


10:10 – 10:05 : Mrs Crabb hears car sitting on back deck , about 40mins ( Mr Crabb said 10 mins ) after arriving home , thought “ sounded like the postman, car came up reasonably fast , did a u-turn & continued on it’s way” ( from her evidence )

And then has the audacity to challenge me when I said there was only a 20-minute difference between each of the times estimated by the Crabbs.

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

 

[js47]

Thanks for that date correction it seems you are correct. Post on BF which I just found verifies. Post #1913.

Wasn't 16th also the day the BS was authorized to return to 48 to repair the washing machine?

Did the police Bug the house? That day? The beach I read was Diamond Head I know that beach as I lived on Diamond Head Road. It is a long drive from Kendall. On a dirt road.

 

[Kurve]

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

Just ignore each other, the timeline can still be challenged.

 

[LRitz]

They seem to be making progress but it's been ten years. It's too late to be asking a lot of these questions now. Too easy to say "I don't remember".
So many potential red flags were just ignored.

Black eyes.
Hand injuries.
Deleted texts.
Phone calls unanswered within minutes of making a call.
Cars suddenly remembered, days later.
Drive down BCR not mentioned until days later.
Shoes on or off?
How many for breakfast.
Unlocked high balcony.
FF goes out alone.

All of these things were just ignored or accepted on face value. Nothing was actually investigated.

Agree.
Too many cups of tea.
Black eyes. (Refer Chris Dawson.)
Hand injury / scratch. (Defensive injuries, Baden powell tried to conceal.)
Mystery phone call. (Dawson)
House not immediately closed down as a crime scene. (Dawson)

And, as others mentioned, there are upcoming events that could have been a trigger. Possible adoption. FGM selling house, so will not be able to visit this secluded street after FGM leaves.

Another point. Was there a possibility that if bio Mother opposed the adoption, she would be asking to have the children back? Was it the case that bio Mother was being kept in the dark about the adoption?

 

[Kurve]

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

The two were running along and playing on the high balcony earlier that morning, the FM said it was safe because she could see them from inside and 'rails'. That isn't necessarily true because there was furniture close to the rails at the highest end any child could have climbed on.

If there's an introduction of a head hitting fear going off the balcony, they wouldn't have been allowed to play on it and the FM should have already checked William hadn't fallen from the balcony by the time she spoke to AMS.

There were concerns expressed by the biological mother and the FF about the development or deterioration of William's motor skills, so if he was falling over a lot and struggling to get up, the concern he may have hit his head likely came from there.

 

[LRitz]

I don’t know how they could eat knowing he was out there in the cold wearing that thin super hero costume. If he really was “little boy lost” he would have died that night even if he was alive when he left that house that morning. IMO. He had asthma also so what chance did he have out in the elements?

How could you eat and drink wine?

What gets me emotional is that his bio family were not allowed to go and join in the search.

I would imagine they would have left no stone unturned: I would if it was my child. I wouldn’t retire for bed. I would not give up searching.

Agree. After ~ 10 hours of the nightmare of looking for William, police, Neighbours, SES, and as night falls the hope of finding him must be fading. And the terrible possibility that "he had been taken" is becoming more likely . Most people would be a mess. Serious panic. Let alone cooking a meal. I bet they got a surprise when Wendy Hudson turned up. (Go Wendy! and remember it was her day off!)
I think by then you would need serious knock out medication to get any sleep. As always IMO only.

 

[Underarrest_]

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

 

[Kurve]

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

Yes there's a suggestion FF may have gone back to the house, its buried in these threads somewhere. It's not conclusive.

 

[Kurve]

Post #6703. Agree, pointless waste of time.

Unless ... they got more information.

Would we have been told if for example, the FM confided in someone that William fell over the balcony?