Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[gymjam]

Have we ruled out the FM could not have taken two drives after 9.37? And does anybody know if the FGM Mazda 3 had GPS?

My inquiries with a Mazda dealership - they advised there was no pre-sale gps in the model Mazda 3. There may have been post-purchase one installed though, but I do doubt that. I read earlier on that when fostergrandmother took trips to Sydney it was by train. And local areas in Kendall and surrounds (Port Macquarie etc etc etc) she would have known very well due to her living in Benaroon Drive for 23+ years.

I think there is the possibility of 2 drives after the time you mention. One with William and one (separately taken sometime after the last corrected time of the (alleged) final photo) with the shoes.

 

[31550]

Have we ruled out the FM could not have taken two drives after 9.37? And does anybody know if the FGM Mazda 3 had GPS?

I'm having trouble fitting one but it's possible if the first was around 10am and the second around 10.15am. Also depends where she went on each. IMO

 

[LRitz]

Apparently the earlier photo was taken of William when William was about 9months old which was the age he entered the foster parents home in February 2012. A couple of days after the above photo was first published after 12/9/2014, someone on the local facebook group posted as the 'parent' of William and advised this bruising was as a result of an 'accident' at the day care centre. I don't recall seeing either of William's biological names as the facebook poster nor recall seeing the name of the original poster who called themself the 'parent'. From memory it was a snip from the original 'parent' post that was pasted into a facebook comment and excluded the initial poster name.

I am sure I have a saved copy of the facebook post but not promising I can find it in the near future, but when I do I will post it here. If there are any Kendall locals on BF they may recall this post and hopefully have a copy?

So the earlier bruise, seen in the photo of William in the orange shirt, has been explained by a fall at the preschool. Would this have been reported to FACS?

The second bruise was allegedly from a fall at home. I don't think we have seen a photo that bruise.

For a little kid he gets lots of black eyes / face bruising IMO. From my experience, so again IMO, under 5s get grazed knees, bumps to foreheads, and need a steady supply of band aids, but rarely black eyes.

The bruising from a black eye can be delayed from the time of the trauma. Could look worse the next day, so may be difficult to pin point the exact time and cause of the bruise. hmmmm

 

[gymjam]

Oh I have kept that question in my head for soooooo! Long.
In his walk through he BRAGS how he knows all the fire trails but it is questionable if he has his bike. He also says he went down a trail (which one) looking in case William lost a shoe . I am wondering if FF took William on his shoulders for a little walk for a little talk about upsetting FGM because of fights over toys (I bet he had one) long day school days long trip early start. Seems possible to me.
Fm accounts for her FD William’s FGM activities. Didn’t FF say when they were challenged over the FD ‘I am sick of this s**t? A Leopard does not change its spots.

The fire trail he (FF) mentioned in his walkthru was that he was discovered by Chris Rowley about 200 metres into the non-bitumized part of Benaroon Drive (extension), and that was after Chris Rowley had ordered/instructed him to stay at 48 Benaroon! I have not been aware FF 'shoe' comment though and as far as I know it doesn't appear in the part of the FF walkthru that was released by the Coroner in an earlier tranche. Do you have a copy of that section of transcript?

Chris Rowley made out an official written report about this occurring and it was published during one of the earlier inquest tranches. It used to be available (and may still be) using google search 'images' with Chris Rowley's name included.

Edit: I just put this phrase into google search and searched using the 'All' parameter 'chris rowley fire trail benaroon drive william tyrrell' and the first answer is an article in The Australian 7/7/2020 - was this about the time CR appeared at the inquest? The article is paywalled. Snip attached.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Have we ruled out the FM could not have taken two drives after 9.37? And does anybody know if the FGM Mazda 3 had GPS?

This was discussed I recall in part 1 with conclusion that it didn't.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Keep all options open. Assume nothing.
Sometimes going back over something, like FF walkthrough, you see something through different eyes or something new pops out.

FF walkthrough, I don't think FF mention William once specifically by name. Just an observation. He just seems to say "he".

FF also says to police regarding how he was searching " ...I don't think you would have been able to catch up with me...."
Then a sort of little chuckle. Was this leakage or did he realise what he had just said.

In witness statement analysis that is a noticeable thing common to perpetrators where they seek to soften their actions by distancing language. Good pick up !!!

 

[gymjam]

The looking for William scenario dissolves somewhat IMO if the drive was only 5 minutes. You could drive there and back at normal speed in 5 minutes minimum. I'd suggest 'looking for William' speed would take quite a bit longer, depending on how seriously one was looking. This ignores time to find keys, tell people where you are going, and then go back inside the house or onto the back verandah where she was with FD when FF returned.

Do we know where fostergrandmother stored her vehicle keys? Maybe in her bedroom which was very adjacent to the kitchen. Could FM have looked and found the keys when she was inside make the infamous cup of tea? Then placed William in her mother's vehicle? Stayed and had tea, then did a disappearing act - maybe her mother thought she was in the loo or tidying up the bedrooms? Would she really tell people where she was going (in the car) or would she just sneak out? I wonder what the level of 'hearing' her mother had and if she was tone deaf to some common noises like her own vehicle starting up? I've not heard a Mazda 3 start up, so I now wonder how it sounded?

 

[gymjam]

Keep all options open. Assume nothing.
Sometimes going back over something, like FF walkthrough, you see something through different eyes or something new pops out.

FF walkthrough, I don't think FF mention William once specifically by name. Just an observation. He just seems to say "he".

FF also says to police regarding how he was searching " ...I don't think you would have been able to catch up with me...."
Then a sort of little chuckle. Was this leakage or did he realise what he had just said.

And FM rarely says Willlam's name too. I have always wondered what her reference to "my other daughter" was about during the 000 call. At the time neither the 000 opeartor nor FM was referencing the other child present and 'my other daughter' really gave me a jolt.

 

[gymjam]

They seem to be making progress but it's been ten years. It's too late to be asking a lot of these questions now. Too easy to say "I don't remember".
So many potential red flags were just ignored.

Black eyes.
Hand injuries.
Deleted texts.
Phone calls unanswered within minutes of making a call.
Cars suddenly remembered, days later.
Drive down BCR not mentioned until days later.
Shoes on or off?
How many for breakfast.
Unlocked high balcony.
FF goes out alone.

All of these things were just ignored or accepted on face value. Nothing was actually investigated.

I wonder if the breakfast food/drinks was discovered - egg shells and evidence of other edibles/drinks mentioned? I think what William was supposed to have eaten for breakfast also changed. Weetbix to scrambled eggs or vice versa? Accident at East Killara in FF presence a couple of days before they departed for Kendall detailed in 14/9/2014 statement; with biological parents questioning Detective Beacroft why there was NO witness statement from FF until his walkthrough - 1st tranche. Det Beacroft's answer was the 'they' were so busy with searches it was probably not done. What a shock - because she was the officer in charge of the files and didn't know FF had made a statement on 14/9/2014 and it was obvious the biological father's legal and another legal representing (?) was not aware of this statement either!

With these legals not knowing about the statement by FF on 14/9/2014 it brought into play a major concern, that being if the Coroner actually had a copy and if she did, why weren't the legals supplied a copy in their Briefs and who prepared and supplied the so-called full brief to the Coroner? GJ supplied a brief to the Coroner prior to the June 2018 Cedar Loggers Lane/Cobb and Co Road and Benaroon Drive searches he lead. Was there an upgraded Brief supplied to the Coroner after the suspension of his involvement in the William Tyrrell case?

 

[gymjam]

I don’t know if she’s cognitively impaired or she’s had PTSD for 10 years, but either way she can’t seem to answer a simple straight question and that’s been evident from the 000 call where she could not (or refused) to answer some very simple questions, to the walkthrough on 12/9/14+5, all of her statements, and every interview she’s ever given to the media.


It’s hard to know if anything she’s ever said to police or to her friends or to the media has been true or accurate and imo she is a wholly unreliable witness.

Lol I remember her confusion at inquest. I wondered if she got herself into a muddle because she knew she had turned left at sometime; possibly the trip to Macquarie Airport she had stated to Lia Harris in her interview on 12/9/2013 in which she had stated she picked her sister up 'on the night' and at that time in the interview, they were discussing the 12/9/2014!

 

[passball]

The fire trail he (FF) mentioned in his walkthru was that he was discovered by Chris Rowley about 200 metres into the non-bitumized part of Benaroon Drive (extension), and that was after Chris Rowley had ordered/instructed him to stay at 48 Benaroon! I have not been aware FF 'shoe' comment though and as far as I know it doesn't appear in the part of the FF walkthru that was released by the Coroner in an earlier tranche. Do you have a copy of that section of transcript?

Chris Rowley made out an official written report about this occurring and it was published during one of the earlier inquest tranches. It used to be available (and may still be) using google search 'images' with Chris Rowley's name included.

Edit: I just put this phrase into google search and searched using the 'All' parameter 'chris rowley fire trail benaroon drive william tyrrell' and the first answer is an article in The Australian 7/7/2020 - was this about the time CR appeared at the inquest? The article is paywalled. Snip attached.

FF, in his walkthrough, said he had walked up that trail and that's when he mentioned about looking for things on the ground, like Williams shoe.

Sounded like he did this before the 000 call.

If Rowley found him at that particular trail does that mean he went up that trail twice?

 

[gymjam]

You can use the Search feature and enter 'dropsheet', select This thread to search under.

Thankyou for your reply Kurve. I have tried every which way and loose that I can think of. I am now thinking perhaps the original post has been edited to exclude the reference or the post was deleted?

I will mentioned this anyway. Some dark-green plastic fabric-type was located at the Cobb and Co Road big dig 2020 search and I was thinking could this have been related to this 'dropsheet' reference that was on BG a few days ago? Similar looking material to a dropsheet that may have been degraded. I know there are garden bags made of this dark-green plastic fabric-type material that degrade when left with soil or other matter in them. There are also very large planting bags for tree that come in this type of fabric - almost the same size and even larger than an (older style) solid plastic household rubbish bin/container but with 2 handles on either side.

 

[Kurve]

Thankyou for your reply Kurve. I have tried every which way and loose that I can think of. I am now thinking perhaps the original post has been edited to exclude the reference or the post was deleted?

There's quite a few references. Here

• #5,640

 

[js47]

You mean cuddly?
FF was so focused on big noting himself it's nauseous. Apparently he's savvy and a sprinter, also a tracker.
There was ZERO emotion from him.

ZERO

 

[js47]

Thanks gymjam I will try to remember the comment about the shoe I read so many books and other sources. I am really positive he commented on the ‘shoe’ not shoes that started me thinking of taking him for a walk.

 

[maggiethecat]

Thankyou for your reply Kurve. I have tried every which way and loose that I can think of. I am now thinking perhaps the original post has been edited to exclude the reference or the post was deleted?

I will mentioned this anyway. Some dark-green plastic fabric-type was located at the Cobb and Co Road big dig 2020 search and I was thinking could this have been related to this 'dropsheet' reference that was on BG a few days ago? Similar looking material to a dropsheet that may have been degraded. I know there are garden bags made of this dark-green plastic fabric-type material that degrade when left with soil or other matter in them. There are also very large planting bags for tree that come in this type of fabric - almost the same size and even larger than an (older style) solid plastic household rubbish bin/container but with 2 handles on either side.

A plastic type tarp?

 

[js47]

FF, in his walkthrough, said he had walked up that trail and that's when he mentioned about looking for things on the ground, like Williams shoe.

Sounded like he did this before the 000 call.

If Rowley found him at that particular trail does that mean he went up that trail twice?

Yes so why was he up that trail again. I might just have a little walk next time I go past Kendall I also want to see another trail that I am interested in.

 

[passball]

ZERO

I have watched the FF walkthrough numerous times today and I would like to apologise for the cuddly remark, should have said built.

 

[Poppy Penny]

0oo

WHAT! I find out so much important information in this site.

Perhaps it’s because the other site is mainly controlled by the Foster Clique.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

What's his first name?

His name has never been released publicly, it was said in court ( I know it ) & I think it may be suppressed / NFP

Most neutral witnesses have been very consistent in their testimony.

The most inconsistent witnesses are the FM and FGM.

Do you have examples of a neutral witness being inconsistent?

You seem to very forgiving of the witnesses who should remember details, but critical of others. Why is that?

We would expect all the various neutral witnesses do have DIFFERENT views of things. They were all in different places at different times and were not involved in events concerning William. But that doesn't mean they are inconsistent. It's the way these are woven into the narrative which alters.

On the other hand the FM and FGM were pretty much there the whole time in pretty much one or two places (supposedly). So why are their own accounts of events SO inconsistent, even within themselves? Trauma might be one reason, but after ten years of telling and retelling, we still can't gat a single version consistent within itself.

BBM : It seems people here choose to believe what they want when it suits their narrative, & discard what doesn't.

ie yesterday you wanted to discard the time line that has been posted here by another member from another forum, now today it seems you are happy to accept the Crabb's part?

Your quote - "Really not much point posting another posters timeline from ages ago." Post # 6761

Ok so each of the Crabb's reported a different time (one said 10 minutes after they got home, the other said about 30 minutes after they got home.) This is a discrepancy (actually 20, not 30 minutes difference if we are being pedantic), not an inconsistency. Neither of them changed the time they thought they heard the car. So it's possible that they each heard a different car, or it's possible/probable they estimated the time differently, and the car was approx 20 minutes (plus or minus 10) after they got home. We don't expect them to be watching the clock do we? You are trying to discredit the Crabbs now? Why? They heard a car - one of them thinks it was around 9:40 - the other thinks it was around 10:00 - that's handy information, not inconsistent at all.

Why should the cars seen by Peter, FM, or Chapman match each other? Peter saw what he saw. Chapman saw what he saw. There is no reason why they should have seen the same thing. That is not inconsistency. Peter did not change the black Camry to a blue sedan, or change the time he saw the vehicles. Neither did Chapman. They both gave consistent accounts within themselves of what they saw.

On the other hand, FM firstly saw no cars, then two cars, then a third. At differing times in the narrative. And at times when Anne Maree, or Savage, or the Crabbs should also have seen them, but they didn't. FGM never saw any cars either. This is inconsistency.

Witness statements as I have said before are notoriously unreliable.

Again, I don't know why you are trying to discredit neutral witnesses like Chapman, the Crabbs, and Peter who are simply trying to tell what they saw. And so forgiving of the FM who cannot give a consistent version.

BBM # 1 But you do expect that the FM was expected to be watching the clock?, ok for others but seems not for her> Again suits your narrative.

BBM # 2 Detective Laura Beacroft who did so much work on all the cars , said that Anne Maree said she saw no cars @ 07:30, but Detective Beacroft also said Anne Maree did not come out of the house until 08:10 on the 12/9/2014. So just because she did not see them , does not mean they were not there

Apologies to Kurve but this really needs to be called out.

ES posted this:

And then has the audacity to challenge me when I said there was only a 20-minute difference between each of the times estimated by the Crabbs.

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

Just to be clear the times that the Crabbs heard the cars were :

Mr Crabb 09:40 - 09:45

Mrs Crabb 10:10 - 10:15

Difference in their times is 30mins

They got home @ 09:30 - 09:35

Agree.
Too many cups of tea.
Black eyes. (Refer Chris Dawson.)
Hand injury / scratch. (Defensive injuries, Baden powell tried to conceal.)
Mystery phone call. (Dawson)
House not immediately closed down as a crime scene. (Dawson)

And, as others mentioned, there are upcoming events that could have been a trigger. Possible adoption. FGM selling house, so will not be able to visit this secluded street after FGM leaves.

Another point. Was there a possibility that if bio Mother opposed the adoption, she would be asking to have the children back? Was it the case that bio Mother was being kept in the dark about the adoption?

BBM : William & his sister had long term care orders in place ie until 18yrs old

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

The FF left @ 08:55 ( just found this in my notes , stated by Detective Laura Beacroft @ the inquest ) .

Arrived in Lakewood @ approx 09:15

Meeting went for 39 minutes ( client in QLD ) , in which he received a voice message @09:45, he called this person back after his meeting while he was at the pharmacy waiting for his script ( script filled @ 10:18 )

What would two people be doing driving up there at that time? Two people who simultaneously have the idea to nab a 3YO boy on impulse?
If it's one person, how do they get William into the car, and stop him getting out without shutting the door?
Why would they care about the car door being heard? It's pretty obvious anyone (responsible) with a 3YO kid is going to notice they have been taken pretty quickly. They don't need to hear a car door slam to know.

So as not to be identified / seen maybe?

A car was heard. One car.
Premeditated has been ruled out by police as very few people knew William would be there, and those that did all have alibis according to police.
Random is of course possible but very unlikely given location and time of day and short window.
Sunday drivers (well, Friday morning) - it's a dead-end street. Yeah, could have been someone who took a wrong turn and found the dead end so turned around, but why haven't they come forward and identified themselves?
There are known pedos in the area and SFR probably interviewed all the known ones to eliminate them.
An unknown pedo had to be in exactly the right place at the right time, and also has to be very cunning and skilful to not be seen and to get away with this, and any subsequent offences for 10 years. I suggest that anyone suspected of paedophilia in the area in the last 10 years would have been profiled for this case too.

That's why they are called opportunistic abductions, the opportunity arises & they act.

How convenient the green car pulled into Millers drive way at # 52. Guess what, no one home, they were away, and everyone knew that. So no witness to prove or contest allegation.

I'd be interesting to know what William's sister said about this & I'm sure she would have been asked at some time. The Coroner would know.

First I have heard of that.

Do you have a link? to Mr Savage seeing two cars in the same spot on Benaroon on the Thursday?
Anne Maree was pretty sure there were no cars on the Friday.

FGM had lots of suspects. Ducks in a line. Two repair men (incidentally FGM had organised them to visit the house) the man that comes and goes that is creepy, then later Savage gets added. Needed to keep police busy. Again all IMO.

Paul savage said it at the inquest in his testimony. Again, Anne Maree had not been out of her house to see the cars @ 07:30.

 

[passball]

Can you explain what you mean by 'tracker' please?

FF didn't use the word tracker.
That was just my word after listening to him saying he was in Cubs, Scouts, Venturers, going bush on bike rides, and then deciding which route he thought William could have possibly taken.

 

[Poppy Penny]

Watched the FF walkthrough and full respect for the other guy staying calm listening to that BS.

Worse than water torture! Total w***er.

 

[js47]

I hope the bios legals ask the million dollar question and get a million dollar answer. I really tried to look at William’s disappearance in an objective way but the foster keep pretending to be subjectively vague.
I know I will once again be dumped on but IMO William was at the house or very close. FM drove to meet FF to tell him that William had been abducted. That night FF was told the truth and was shown William, hence the ambulance. If Opa died in the house it would confuse the cadaver dog. That night William went. And maybe FF comment about keeping up was the truth. William was only with them two and half years approx. and he was in day care a lot they were with friends etc. they really did not spend that much time with him.

 

[31550]

BBM # 1 But you do expect that the FM was expected to be watching the clock?, ok for others but seems not for her> Again suits your narrative.

BBM # 2 Detective Laura Beacroft who did so much work on all the cars , said that Anne Maree said she saw no cars @ 07:30, but Detective Beacroft also said Anne Maree did not come out of the house until 08:10 on the 12/9/2014. So just because she did not see them , does not mean they were not there

I don't expect her to get her times precise. I do expect her to have one consistent narrative rather than several, and to be reasonably aware of the sequence of events. E.g was the drive before FF came home or after? Before she saw Anne Marie or after?

Anne Marie dropped her kids at the bus stop on foot in the morning, meaning she walked down and up Benaroon. The cars would have been right in front of her for a couple of minutes while she walked back home. But she didn't see them. Also said at some point that cars parked there would be very unusual as all the houses had driveways which visitors could park in. So it's remarkable that she wouldn't notice 2 cars parked unusually right near her own house.

Again we have someone undermining a neutral witness and challenging their credibility yet defending the FM. Why?

 

[alwaysintrigued]

Do we know where fostergrandmother stored her vehicle keys? Maybe in her bedroom which was very adjacent to the kitchen. Could FM have looked and found the keys when she was inside make the infamous cup of tea? Then placed William in her mother's vehicle? Stayed and had tea, then did a disappearing act - maybe her mother thought she was in the loo or tidying up the bedrooms? Would she really tell people where she was going (in the car) or would she just sneak out? I wonder what the level of 'hearing' her mother had and if she was tone deaf to some common noises like her own vehicle starting up? I've not heard a Mazda 3 start up, so I now wonder how it sounded?

BBM : Kitchen bench near the house phone.