Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry Current

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[shorsky]

Cops wanted Lonergan up there too. There must be something they want to present that the coroner doesn't want to hear for some reason.
I don't see any point in calling FM. Just present her various testimonies and whatever evidence you have which refutes it in the brief.
What does the coroner think she can ask that hasn't already been asked?

With all due respect 31550, I think I recall that you had a list of questions you wanted clarified…. even if they’ve been asked previously ( and often with conflicting answers) let’s ask them Again. … and check the variances.
Here’s some I’d ask:
* did William sleep wth FF
* did William wet the bed
* what time did William wake up
* what time did FD wake up ( did FD sleep with FM)
* where / when that morning did the children both watch the ‘show’ on FF’s phone
* did the children ride their bikes that morning, and if so, when ?
* were they under adult supervision & if so, by whom
* did they crash their bikes ? Where ? any injuries ? scraped knees, arms etc
* did the children shower & dress before or after bike ride / breakfast
* who prepared breakfast
* did FF eat breakfast with them
* what time did FF leave
* did FM take children & their colouring gear to the deck after breakfast, while FGM washed up
* what happened to her hand ? What time ?
* last photo taken at 9.37 am ( was it the last ? There were more photos that haven’t been made public )
* was it difficult to use the camera with her cut hand
* after photo did William immediately go off playing on the grass while FD staying doing her colouring (approx 9.40 am)
* did FM & FGM then go inside out of ear shot to have the discussion about William’s behaviour
* did FM & FGM stay together during that time
* where was FGM when FM said to affect of ‘ its vey quiet, I can’t hear him’
* where was FD at that stage
* did FM ask FD if she knew where William was / where she last saw him / what he’d been doing
* who cared for FD while FM was looking for William
* did FM tell FD she was going for a drive and to stay with FGM - do not leave the house !
Etc etc

 

[shorsky]

It wasn't Craddock asking questions about the drive , it was Sophie Callan & Mr Barnes from the NSW CC & all this was played for the Coroner.

I don't know what investigations the Coroner has done on the timeline.

I cannot possibly tell you every question that was asked, & to keep asking me to do so is not fair.

But basically every question that has been asked of this case in the last 10yrs on forums, facebook etc was explored.

She was asked about the drive, the car keys, the searching, the phones, all the morning activities, the cups of tea, the 000 call, the neighbours, the riding school, the verandah, the garage, about where the FF was when she made the 000 call, alot about times etc

I certainly appreciate your information, as you say a lot is covered that does not make the publications.

And I understand now from your post above, that most of the information re FM questioning comes from the report on FM interview with Crime Commission.

It would be very helpful for me, and I think for others also, if you could state the source of the information please.
e.g.
the Truck driver appeared online and said xyz
we heard in some of the 4 Hr CC interview, that FM was asked xyz and her response was …. ( I can’t remember )

Thank you.

 

[passball]

With all due respect 31550, I think I recall that you had a list of questions you wanted clarified…. even if they’ve been asked previously ( and often with conflicting answers) let’s ask them Again. … and check the variances.
Here’s some I’d ask:
* did William sleep wth FF
* did William wet the bed
* what time did William wake up
* what time did FD wake up ( did FD sleep with FM)
* where / when that morning did the children both watch the ‘show’ on FF’s phone
* did the children ride their bikes that morning, and if so, when ?
* were they under adult supervision & if so, by whom
* did they crash their bikes ? Where ? any injuries ? scraped knees, arms etc
* did the children shower & dress before or after bike ride / breakfast
* who prepared breakfast
* did FF eat breakfast with them
* what time did FF leave
* did FM take children & their colouring gear to the deck after breakfast, while FGM washed up
* what happened to her hand ? What time ?
* last photo taken at 9.37 am ( was it the last ? There were more photos that haven’t been made public )
* was it difficult to use the camera with her cut hand
* after photo did William immediately go off playing on the grass while FD staying doing her colouring (approx 9.40 am)
* did FM & FGM then go inside out of ear shot to have the discussion about William’s behaviour
* did FM & FGM stay together during that time
* where was FGM when FM said to affect of ‘ its vey quiet, I can’t hear him’
* where was FD at that stage
* did FM ask FD if she knew where William was / where she last saw him / what he’d been doing
* who cared for FD while FM was looking for William
* did FM tell FD she was going for a drive and to stay with FGM - do not leave the house !
Etc etc

Good questions, and that's just to start off with.
Did they do an in-depth interview like this?
If she was asked these questions back them we wouldn't be asking them now

 

[Underarrest_]

Does anyone know who’s idea it was to leave for the trip to Kendall early?

 

[shorsky]

Wallace52, when you wonder re ‘SC: 'Did you decide to hide his body rather than let your mother feel a sense of responsibility for that?'
FM: 'No'.

Are you thinking SC is suggesting FM doesn’t want FGM to feel responsible for William’s death because she has a house with a dangerously high verandah ?

Well, I guess they were trying any thing in their attempts to get her to say something, but I think that’s a long shot of a suggestion. As if your mind would go to that if you found a badly injured or deceased child, any more than it would go to hiding him, imo.

Anyway I don’t subscribe to him climbing up and accidentally falling off that verandah, never have. Plus the police dug up everything under & around (wonder what the landscape bill was to repair it all!), they had luminal everywhere, found no trace.

Do we know for sure if the last forensic check of FGM car turned up anything ?
Could be why the question about drop sheets. Maybe they found traces of drop sheet material in the car. … but if William was wrapped in a drop sheet, where is it ? He would not have been left in a drop sheet !

Are there mines or gorges close by ? There is a Batar Creek Quarry, perhaps by the searched Middle Brother Forest.

 

[shorsky]

I read a post by yourself where you made two references for the drive being after the FM saw Anne Marie Sharpley.

Not sure how to link it here. It is from the previous thread and is post 3822 from March 2022. Maybe this link will work. Yes, it does. I just tried it.

Current - Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include: Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs) Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty 2 x charges of assault...

www.bigfooty.com

The problem here is Time.

It’s my understanding that AMS testified that FM came to her at 10.40 am - which would tie in with AMS hearing FF calling, but it allows insufficient time for FM to be running up and down Benaroon, meeting Lyndene Heslop who I think had arrived home about 10.30, searching in long grass and hearing a bird that sounded like a Scream ..
then back to get FGM car and going off on a drive To ? & Back, before making the 000 call. ..
which would have involved checking with FF if found, deciding to make the call, then going into the house to get the Phone ( unless was already with her as questioned) All of that from her return home would take 5 mins minimum.
And AMS was with her when she made the call, and als with her on Benaroon
AMS has not said that FM went for a drive

But FM said she went for a drive - there is no reason to say that if she didn’t ( there is a reason to say it if she did, in case she was seen. And she thinks she was seen by a truck driver )

Personally I feel FM had been for the drive Before she raced up to AMS, who she saw was having a smoke in her front yard. … but it’s not been said that AMS was aware that she took a drive, and surely she would have been asked that at initial inquest tranche
Noting it’s also not been said that AMS noticed FF return home but surely she must have.

I do think the vehicle the Crabbe’s heard was FM - I can imagine her in a hurry, reversing out of that driveway (do we know for sure which garage / car port FGM car was in), possibly on to edge of road, stopping, changing gears & taking off quite fast.
I think this could have happened as early as 9.50 am, which would leave her 40 mins to be home in time for FF estimated arrival ( I think he arrived 10.35 am - FM spoke to him & then she went down to Benaroon & met AMS)

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The problem here is Time.

It’s my understanding that AMS testified that FM came to her at 10.40 am - which would tie in with AMS hearing FF calling, but it allows insufficient time for FM to be running up and down Benaroon, meeting Lyndene Heslop who I think had arrived home about 10.30, searching in long grass and hearing a bird that sounded like a Scream ..
then back to get FGM car and going off on a drive To ? & Back, before making the 000 call. ..
which would have involved checking with FF if found, deciding to make the call, then going into the house to get the Phone ( unless was already with her as questioned) All of that from her return home would take 5 mins minimum.
And AMS was with her when she made the call, and als with her on Benaroon
AMS has not said that FM went for a drive

But FM said she went for a drive - there is no reason to say that if she didn’t ( there is a reason to say it if she did, in case she was seen. And she thinks she was seen by a truck driver )

Personally I feel FM had been for the drive Before she raced up to AMS, who she saw was having a smoke in her front yard. … but it’s not been said that AMS was aware that she took a drive, and surely she would have been asked that at initial inquest tranche
Noting it’s also not been said that AMS noticed FF return home but surely she must have.

I do think the vehicle the Crabbe’s heard was FM - I can imagine her in a hurry, reversing out of that driveway (do we know for sure which garage / car port FGM car was in), possibly on to edge of road, stopping, changing gears & taking off quite fast.
I think this could have happened as early as 9.50 am, which would leave the 40 mins to be home in time for FF estimated arrival ( I think he arrived 10.35 am - FM spoke to him & then she went down to Benaroon & met AMS)

Didn't they hear tyres on gravel? That means the lower driveway you assume. So the car was driven from top carport out and to lower gravel driveway. I agree with Kurve that this seems to imitate W being collected from the area beneath the balcony.

I don't think it's remotely conceivable that the period from 10.30 and beyond was used for the car trip. If you are being secretive why would you announce the hoax and then take off? illogical. No..I think it's earlier.

I'm intrigued by SFR identifying 10.08 to 10.13 as the gap. How was this determined is my question?..Was there data pings of phones indicating she was on the road that that time? Seems awful precise given instead that the Crabbes weren't precise. Then you have the mysterious question from CC about FM having ALL phones with her. Did they have data pings for FGM phone to determine that too? So possibly identify FM on the road AND indentify she took the FGM phone too. Possible.

I know in Part 1 someone did a detailed analysis of tower triangulation. i can't recall if it precisely triangulated location or merely area.

 

[31550]

Didn't they hear tyres on gravel?

Crabb's never said gravel.

 

[31550]

Well, Anne Marie and the FM didn't knock at Lydene's door until about 11:30am according to these two articles.

And Anne Marie, alone, knocked at Paul Savage's door at around 11am.

So I don't know where you are getting your times from. And why you think that the FM and Anne Marie were together from 10:40am onwards.

It seems they met up, separated, and met up again.

No Cookies | Daily Telegraph

No Cookies

www.dailytelegraph.com.au

What happened on the day William Tyrrell vanished?

Mid-morning on September 12, 2014, Paul Savage was inside his house on Benaroon Drive, Kendall, in the green and tranquil river valley of Camden Haven on NSW’s mid-north coast.

www.news.com.au

I can't find the Paul Savage time again right now but this article explains it was around 11am that Anne Marie knocked at his door. Maybe a little before 11am.

'I remember hearing kids': Tyrrell witness | The New Daily 'I remember hearing kids': Tyrrell witness

%%excerpt%% An elderly neighbour told the William Tyrrell inquest he remembers hearing kids playing about an hour before the three-year-old went missing.

www.thenewdaily.com.au

I think you will find that the 11:30 time visiting Lydene Heslop is actually earlier. Craddock mentioned Facebook posts, and if Lydene's FB posts rallying searchers can be found then these may shed a slightly different light on the timeline. I hope Craddock isn't just teasing us.

But without the FB posts we can still timeline the drive.

As stormbird said, the problem is time. (ie fitting the elapsed time required for the drive into the established timeline).

The drive to Cobb & Co is around 3-4 minutes each way. (Probably longer if going slowly looking for William).
FF sends home in 5 at 10:30
FF is home at 10:35.
FM first sees Anne Maree at 10:40. So the drive cannot overlap the period between 10:30 and 10:40.
Anne Maree goes to the bus shelter, a distance of approx 250metres, so a 3-4 minute walk each way.
On her return Anne Maree knocks on Savages door. This is approx 10:50. It is definitely BEFORE the 000 call.
THEN she re-engages with the FM, as you say. (Because she is close by the FM when the 000 call is made at ~10:56.)
For the drive to have been made by the FM between the two engagements with Anne Maree, she would have had to pass by Anne Maree in the car TWICE (once going out, and once returning).
Neither FM nor Anne Maree report this, ever. The only time Anne Maree was off the street, briefly was when she was knocking on Savages door around 10:50.
FM needed to walk from Anne Maree's house back up to FGM house, get the car keys, back the car out, drive to Cobb&Co, (Jubelin says she got out of the car there), drive back to Benaroon, park the car, grab her mother's landline phone, ask the FF (who is still in the back yard) if she should call 000, walk onto Benaroon again and make the call. She somehow managed to do all this in less than 10 minutes without anybody seeing her, or hearing the car.

Police arrived shortly after 11am and met FM in Benaroon, so it's impossible for her to have made the drive after the 000 call.

FM says she doesn't remember when she drove. But FM does talk about searching for William on foot after speaking to Anne Maree (where she heard the scream).

But to meet this (IMO impossible) timeline FM would have had to immediately race and get the car and make the drive after speaking to Anne Maree the first time, in order to be back to interface again around the time of the 000 call, as well as drive past her twice without Anne Maree noticing either time.

And nothing like her original account of events in 2014 - See para 22.

 

[31550]

So you are NOW believing the FM's confusion, which is pointed out in the article, instead of believing what Anne Marie and Lydene said?

Okay, whatever. I don't think you are trying to be realistic. Sorry.

You can't have your cake and eat it either, quoting journalists with glaring errors in their times.
FM says she doesn't remember when she took the drive. She does remember what she did after speaking to Anne Maree - she says ( in her 2014 sworn statement) she looked for William "for about 5 minutes" then dialled 000. And we know when she spoke to Anne Maree and when the 000 call was made. She doesn't say she drove anywhere at this time.

It doesn't matter whether we believe the FM or not - the timeline speaks for itself.

 

[Awakening]

I’ve never seen Anne Marie or Lydene’s full statements, so who knows whether either saw FM drive or not? Let alone times.

I’m also not sure whether one or both, after years of reflection, have formed a view of FM’s guilt or innocence.

 

[Earls Smother]

And they reported who they saw. The truck driver reported who he saw. Even Elizabeth Rowley reported who she saw in Kew. Someone reported someone who was standing with his arms crossed at one of Fehon's press conferences. Someone reported a person who was interested in buying the empty lot across the street. Seems like everyone was reporting everyone.

As 31550 has said, the answer is very likely in the file. Remembering that the "file" includes footage from 169 (?) CCTV cameras.

There will be something there that someone saw that is relevant - it is a matter of working out who and what. The Claremont case had the blokes at the bus stop see the car with very specific wheel rims. It was very relevant but wasn't worked out until after he was identified in other ways. Perry K was in the file the whole time for Easey St.

The trouble is, if they can't pin it on the FM, resources will be dramatically reduced and it becomes much harder.

 

[Lady O]

No doubt it's relevant. But why waste court time viewing it? For whose benefit? Why not just watch it privately and make better use of the limited inquest time by actually 'inquesting'?

Wasting time is what courts do best.

 

[31550]

I’ve never seen Anne Marie or Lydene’s full statements, so who knows whether either saw FM drive or not? Let alone times.

I’m also not sure whether one or both, after years of reflection, have formed a view of FM’s guilt or innocence.

The deputy coroner made a point of saying,
“I pause to say there is actually no evidence that anyone has been seen placing a body here or anywhere else.”

How about saying, "There is actually no evidence that supports anything the FM has told us about her movements that morning"? There is no evidence that William ever 'went missing'.

There is no evidence that the FM looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FF looked anywhere for William before the 000 call. There is no evidence that the FGM looked anywhere for William at all. There is no evidence for the FM's whereabouts between 9:37 and 10:40. There is no evidence for the FGM's whereabouts between 9:37 and around 12:30 (Wendy Hudson) that I can find.

If nobody can prove they 'looked for' William until after 10:40am, then why is it assumed he went missing so much earlier? Why is it assumed he went missing at all?

 

[LRitz]

Simplest explanation is that he actually left well before 9am, and the FM falsely stated he was there when she rang Spedding. He wasn't there, couldn't have been.

the FM falsely stated he was there when she rang Spedding. (my bolding)
So FM statement to police is wrong on the time.
The details are also wrong - he is running late. But he starts his meeting early.
The first statement does not include the 9:03 phone call, but FM later says FF is there at the time of the phone call.

My question is why is there a problem with the this evidence that is an event before 9:37, when everyone was still happy? It just gets me thinking.
If you were working backwards, 9:16 for meeting.Certain. What time would FF have left the house if he drove directly to Lakewood - 9 to 10 minute drive and a couple of minutes to set up and - you come up with a time a bit after 9 or 9ish.
There is lots of discussion over possible events with no proof, falls from balconies and bike rides, but ignore or forgive something that does not fit the jigsaw.

 

[31550]

the FM falsely stated he was there when she rang Spedding. (my bolding)
So FM statement to police is wrong on the time.
The details are also wrong - he is running late. But he starts his meeting early.
The first statement does not include the 9:03 phone call, but FM later says FF is there at the time of the phone call.

My question is why is there a problem with the this evidence that is an event before 9:37, when everyone was still happy? It just gets me thinking.
If you were working backwards, 9:16 for meeting.Certain. What time would FF have left the house if he drove directly to Lakewood - 9 to 10 minute drive and a couple of minutes to set up and - you come up with a time a bit after 9 or 9ish.
There is lots of discussion over possible events with no proof, falls from balconies and bike rides, but ignore or forgive something that does not fit the jigsaw.

Best to ignore what anyone said and rely on the CCTV, which has him passing the tennis courts before 9am, then the phone records and pharmacy receipt which place him in Lakewood from around 9:13 onwards.

 

[Lady O]

Yes but if the coroner doesn't accept the police theory, why not cross examine the police and disprove it.
Reject one narrative if you feel it is unworthy, but unless you have a better alternative more viable narrative, there is no basis for reyoujecting what is put before .
There is evidence which proves things cannot have happened the way police currently theorise. What is the alternative, plausible theory.
E.g. Couldn't have made the drive after 10:30
Therefore must have made the drive before 10.30. Or no drive at all. Or someone else made the drive.

What she seeks is evidence that backs up the theory. As yet, unless I missed it, there is no evidence for the Police theory.

 

[31550]

What she seeks is evidence that backs up the theory. As yet, unless I missed it, there is no evidence for the Police theory.

Agree. The only way for the DC to get evidence (if it's not in the brief) is to ask questions. So why not ask them?

E.g. "What evidence do police have about the time, place and circumstances of the alleged FM drive to BCR?".

Possible answers:

• nothing
• warm bonnet
• position of the cars in the driveway when observed by police
• items found in the car
• items found along BCR
• phone pings or similar with timestamp and geolocation
• independent eyewitness evidence placing FM and/or the vehicle somewhere at some known time (e.g. talking to Anne Maree at 10:40am)
• CCTV ?
• only what FM has told us (which is that she doesn't remember WHEN, but she did drive)
• any combination of the above

It's only one question. If the answer is 'nothing' then the police theory must be rejected.
If the answers reveal the drive was earlier than 10.30, then the 'missing' theory and the 'accident' theory must be rejected.

 

[Kurve]

position of the cars in the driveway when observed by police

Do we know what position they were in?

 

[31550]

Do we know what position they were in?

I don't. I think it's critical though. Were they parked tandem or side by side, and if tandem, which car was in front?

 

[InTheBleachers]

The problem here is Time.

It’s my understanding that AMS testified that FM came to her at 10.40 am - which would tie in with AMS hearing FF calling, but it allows insufficient time for FM to be running up and down Benaroon, meeting Lyndene Heslop who I think had arrived home about 10.30, searching in long grass and hearing a bird that sounded like a Scream ..

She met Lydene Heslop at 11:30.

It is a short time period, 20 minutes.
10:35 FF arrives home
Go down the street, looking around
Notice Anne Marie having a smoke, have you seen a small boy?
Look at the bottom of the street
Go home, grab the keys and have a quick drive, again looking around
Come home and call 000

Panicked people don't dawdle.

 

[InTheBleachers]

As 31550 has said, the answer is very likely in the file. Remembering that the "file" includes footage from 169 (?) CCTV cameras.

There will be something there that someone saw that is relevant - it is a matter of working out who and what. The Claremont case had the blokes at the bus stop see the car with very specific wheel rims. It was very relevant but wasn't worked out until after he was identified in other ways. Perry K was in the file the whole time for Easey St.

The trouble is, if they can't pin it on the FM, resources will be dramatically reduced and it becomes much harder.

The NSW cold case department need cold case training, like Ron Iddles in Victoria had.

 

[Kurve]

What she seeks is evidence that backs up the theory. As yet, unless I missed it, there is no evidence for the Police theory.

It doesn't make any sense through the scale of this, careers ruined, million dollar rewards and campaigns that probably cost more, for the cops to have upended it all to such huge risk, for them to have nothing.

They could simply have shut up, given further benefit of any doubt to the FM and protected their investigations.

I'd bet a lot of money that they do actually believe the FM is responsible. They've got something.

 

[31550]

She met Lydene Heslop at 11:30.

It is a short time period, 20 minutes.
11:36 FF arrives home
Go down the street, looking around
Notice Anne Marie having a smoke, have you seen a small boy?
Look at the bottom of the street
Go home, grab the keys and have a quick drive, again looking around
Come home and call 000

Panicked people don't dawdle.

Evidence for the 11:30 time?
FF arrived home at 10:35 not 11:36.
FM 2014 statement says she went down near BCR before dialling 000 (300 metre walk each way)
How does Anne Marie NOT see FM driving out or back?

 

[InTheBleachers]

Evidence?
FF arrived home at 10:35 not 11:36.
FM 2014 statement says she met Lydene straight after talking to Anne Maree, couldn't be 11:30.
How does Anne Marie NOT see FM driving out or back?

Thanks for jumping on my typo right away. I have corrected it.

I am not going to debate the 11:30 time of meeting Lydene Heslop with you any more. I have provided the information.