Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry Current

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[Kurve]

Let's not forget the reason attention is on the FM right now is because the police put it there and it's this that is the focus of the Coroner's inquiry's last tranche.

It's reasonable to discuss her potential involvement and how that may have unfolded, given for seven years anybody who tried to put any focus there was shut down by various means.

That of course, doesn't mean she was involved so please frame your posts with that in mind.

Thanks.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

You can think so. I think it's utter nonsense and not even close to thought patterns. What you think is an urgent need to FIND them. Nothing more.

 

[31550]

The other Crabbe said 40 minutes. If you want to try and be a pedantic know-it-all at least get it right.

I have no interest in engaging with you. Please don't respond to my posts in future.

Apologies to Kurve but this really needs to be called out.

ES posted this:

09:45 - 09:45 : Mr Crabb hears a car turn around, sounds like posties ( from the inquest ) about 10 mins after getting home

09:59 – 10:07 : PS call Casino hospital, call lasts 8 minutes


10:10 – 10:05 : Mrs Crabb hears car sitting on back deck , about 40mins ( Mr Crabb said 10 mins ) after arriving home , thought “ sounded like the postman, car came up reasonably fast , did a u-turn & continued on it’s way” ( from her evidence )

And then has the audacity to challenge me when I said there was only a 20-minute difference between each of the times estimated by the Crabbs.

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

 

[js47]

Thanks for that date correction it seems you are correct. Post on BF which I just found verifies. Post #1913.

Wasn't 16th also the day the BS was authorized to return to 48 to repair the washing machine?

Did the police Bug the house? That day? The beach I read was Diamond Head I know that beach as I lived on Diamond Head Road. It is a long drive from Kendall. On a dirt road.

 

[Kurve]

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

Just ignore each other, the timeline can still be challenged.

 

[LRitz]

They seem to be making progress but it's been ten years. It's too late to be asking a lot of these questions now. Too easy to say "I don't remember".
So many potential red flags were just ignored.

Black eyes.
Hand injuries.
Deleted texts.
Phone calls unanswered within minutes of making a call.
Cars suddenly remembered, days later.
Drive down BCR not mentioned until days later.
Shoes on or off?
How many for breakfast.
Unlocked high balcony.
FF goes out alone.

All of these things were just ignored or accepted on face value. Nothing was actually investigated.

Agree.
Too many cups of tea.
Black eyes. (Refer Chris Dawson.)
Hand injury / scratch. (Defensive injuries, Baden powell tried to conceal.)
Mystery phone call. (Dawson)
House not immediately closed down as a crime scene. (Dawson)

And, as others mentioned, there are upcoming events that could have been a trigger. Possible adoption. FGM selling house, so will not be able to visit this secluded street after FGM leaves.

Another point. Was there a possibility that if bio Mother opposed the adoption, she would be asking to have the children back? Was it the case that bio Mother was being kept in the dark about the adoption?

 

[Kurve]

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

The two were running along and playing on the high balcony earlier that morning, the FM said it was safe because she could see them from inside and 'rails'. That isn't necessarily true because there was furniture close to the rails at the highest end any child could have climbed on.

If there's an introduction of a head hitting fear going off the balcony, they wouldn't have been allowed to play on it and the FM should have already checked William hadn't fallen from the balcony by the time she spoke to AMS.

There were concerns expressed by the biological mother and the FF about the development or deterioration of William's motor skills, so if he was falling over a lot and struggling to get up, the concern he may have hit his head likely came from there.

 

[LRitz]

I don’t know how they could eat knowing he was out there in the cold wearing that thin super hero costume. If he really was “little boy lost” he would have died that night even if he was alive when he left that house that morning. IMO. He had asthma also so what chance did he have out in the elements?

How could you eat and drink wine?

What gets me emotional is that his bio family were not allowed to go and join in the search.

I would imagine they would have left no stone unturned: I would if it was my child. I wouldn’t retire for bed. I would not give up searching.

Agree. After ~ 10 hours of the nightmare of looking for William, police, Neighbours, SES, and as night falls the hope of finding him must be fading. And the terrible possibility that "he had been taken" is becoming more likely . Most people would be a mess. Serious panic. Let alone cooking a meal. I bet they got a surprise when Wendy Hudson turned up. (Go Wendy! and remember it was her day off!)
I think by then you would need serious knock out medication to get any sleep. As always IMO only.

 

[Underarrest_]

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

 

[Kurve]

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

Yes there's a suggestion FF may have gone back to the house, its buried in these threads somewhere. It's not conclusive.

 

[Kurve]

Post #6703. Agree, pointless waste of time.

Unless ... they got more information.

Would we have been told if for example, the FM confided in someone that William fell over the balcony?

 

[LRitz]

No doubt. It would have been terrifying, and that’s another indicator to me that at that particular point in time, the FF was completely innocent of anything to do with how William disappeared.

Here we go again with FF and his halo.
Wasn't FF charged with intimidation. Wasn't a child in his care worried that he would hurt her? Did FF not see that William had previous bruising and was losing weight as suspected by biological mother.
I suggest Wallace52 you look at FF's walkthrough again. Ok, not as confusing as FGM's, but what he says, and when he saw the first neighbours etc, does not seem to fit in with the other evidence , IMO. Also, like FGM, not much emotion even though only days after William has disappeared. Then back to Sydney and renovate the house.

 

[LRitz]

I think his behaviour, when he got into an argument with the neighbour about wanting to search his shed/garage, although a bit weird, showed he was genuine at the time. He's not that good an actor, and if guilty would not draw suspicion by creating a scene. A guilty trickster would act 'nice as pie' - now who does that sound like? Ask GJ and MU.

He's not that good an actor, (my bold)

Hang on 31550, maybe he has been to NIDA, maybe he got badge for acting in scouts. Is he a bit of a salesman in his work role? I don't know these people, so I can not judge. But saying he is not a good actor is just your opinion.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

This has been done before. The high balcony would introduce that fear. Perfectly reasonable to have that worry.

That is a nonsense suggestion..she presumably has no idea he has a head injury. If she suspects it would be sensible first to find him and confirm it than speculate. It's rubbish

 

[31550]

Some of the details within the timeline may be challenged, but there are a few "immovables" IMO.

Looking at what the Crabbs said, it is almost certain:

• because of their regular routine that they almost certainly returned home shortly after 9:30
• they both reported hearing a car after they returned (Peter thought soon after they returned, Sharelle thought some time after they returned) We don't know how long but if Peter estimated 10 minutes and Sharelle estimated 40 minutes, it's most likely in-between or close to one of these times.
• they think they probably heard the same car because they think they remarked "must be the postie" or similar
• police have ruled out this being the postie (it seems)
• they think they heard the car stop momentarily and return from whence it came - at least the sounds they heard are consistent with this
• they do not seem to have mentioned 'gravel' and they do not say this car went past their house at any point
• when interviewed by police a car did in fact drive past the Crabbs and Mrs Crabb heard it and pointed it out to police - confirming her ability to hear a vehicle on Benaroon from her house
• neither of them report hearing any other vehicles coming and going during this period (9:30 to 10:30)

I don't know why anyone would want to discredit the Crabbs. They heard a car, probably the same car. It probably turned around in the FGM driveway or very nearby.

It is widely accepted that William disappeared after 9:37 (photo) and before 10:30 (FF return).
It is widely accepted that William left Benaroon Drive (if not the FGM property itself) in a vehicle.

It is widely accepted that very few vehicles ever go to the top section of Benaroon Drive. Those that do are either residents, or people visiting or doing business with residents. Vehicles can access the fire trail as well, but then they would need to drive on the gravel - they would probably make a different sound to a vehicle stopping and turning around.
Police asked residents about their movements and whether they had any vehicles come and go at this time. So all known vehicles are accounted for, except for the one the Crabbs heard. It cannot be attributed to the postie, or anyone visiting someone in Benaroon Drive, or any of the other residents.

There is (only) one known vehicle which may have left Benaroon Drive during this period. The FGM vehicle, driven (allegedly) by the FM. It is possible this is what was heard by the Crabbs - either going out or coming back (or maybe even both!).

The other possibility is that the Crabbs did not hear FGMs car at all on either its exit or re-entry, but heard another car entirely - the one which abducted William. It just happened to drive up Benaroon Drive for no apparent reason, stop momentarily, grab William (without a door opening or closing being heard) and drive back off. What are the chances of a random opportunistic child abductor driving up Benaroon at that exact time that William ventured to the edge of the property, so that they could quickly exit the vehicle, grab him in a few seconds, and drive off without a door closing?

So which is the more likely scenario?

 

[31550]

He's not that good an actor, (my bold)

Hang on 31550, maybe he has been to NIDA, maybe he got badge for acting in scouts. Is he a bit of a salesman in his work role? I don't know these people, so I can not judge. But saying he is not a good actor is just your opinion.

OMG yes it is my opinion. And I gave the reasons I hold that opinion. What is your problem with ME expressing an opinion. It is clearly an opinion. I never intended it to be treated as an immutable fact. How the heck is "He's not that good an actor" ever going to be treated by a rational person as a fact? It's a qualitative statement. NOT THAT GOOD. Clearly an opinion. How do you measure or define "Not that Good"???
In what context could that POSSIBLY construed as FACT. FFS!

 

[maggiethecat]

Imo FM likes the narrative. She has been storytelling all the way along. About the health of their parenting..About abduction hoax factors. About reasons for car trip..About a scream from the bush. it's ALL designed to hide the truth. That is just another one of COG lies.

The scream implies in subtle way that either he was taken and harmed OR that he wandered off and got into trouble and was hurt . Either way she's not responsible. The lies are so painfully obvious..

iF she seriously thought it was a child's scream she would chase it down....not merely mention it and hide behind the lie. Which characterises it exactly as a lie that she didn't

It reminds me of picnic at hanging rock when Edith comes running back down the rock and the birds are screeching and I think she is screaming, very eerie part in the movie adaptation. I feel FM likes to “romanticize “ some of these events and like the aforementioned story, I feel it’s mostly fiction.

 

[Underarrest_]

Some of the details within the timeline may be challenged, but there are a few "immovables" IMO.

Looking at what the Crabbs said, it is almost certain:

• because of their regular routine that they almost certainly returned home shortly after 9:30
• they both reported hearing a car after they returned (Peter thought soon after they returned, Sharelle thought some time after they returned) We don't know how long but if Peter estimated 10 minutes and Sharelle estimated 40 minutes, it's most likely in-between or close to one of these times.
• they think they probably heard the same car because they think they remarked "must be the postie" or similar
• police have ruled out this being the postie (it seems)
• they think they heard the car stop momentarily and return from whence it came - at least the sounds they heard are consistent with this
• they do not seem to have mentioned 'gravel' and they do not say this car went past their house at any point
• when interviewed by police a car did in fact drive past the Crabbs and Mrs Crabb heard it and pointed it out to police - confirming her ability to hear a vehicle on Benaroon from her house
• neither of them report hearing any other vehicles coming and going during this period (9:30 to 10:30)

I don't know why anyone would want to discredit the Crabbs. They heard a car, probably the same car. It probably turned around in the FGM driveway or very nearby.

It is widely accepted that William disappeared after 9:37 (photo) and before 10:30 (FF return).
It is widely accepted that William left Benaroon Drive (if not the FGM property itself) in a vehicle.

It is widely accepted that very few vehicles ever go to the top section of Benaroon Drive. Those that do are either residents, or people visiting or doing business with residents. Vehicles can access the fire trail as well, but then they would need to drive on the gravel - they would probably make a different sound to a vehicle stopping and turning around.
Police asked residents about their movements and whether they had any vehicles come and go at this time. So all known vehicles are accounted for, except for the one the Crabbs heard. It cannot be attributed to the postie, or anyone visiting someone in Benaroon Drive, or any of the other residents.

There is (only) one known vehicle which may have left Benaroon Drive during this period. The FGM vehicle, driven (allegedly) by the FM. It is possible this is what was heard by the Crabbs - either going out or coming back (or maybe even both!).

The other possibility is that the Crabbs did not hear FGMs car at all on either its exit or re-entry, but heard another car entirely - the one which abducted William. It just happened to drive up Benaroon Drive for no apparent reason, stop momentarily, grab William (without a door opening or closing being heard) and drive back off. What are the chances of a random opportunistic child abductor driving up Benaroon at that exact time that William ventured to the edge of the property, so that they could quickly exit the vehicle, grab him in a few seconds, and drive off without a door closing?

So which is the more likely scenario?

It’s possible it could be any car.
We know it’s been heard.
We don’t know what the car looked like or who was driving.

 

[passball]

It’s possible it could be any car.
We know it’s been heard.
We don’t know what the car looked like or who was driving.

I would think that a car door opening and closing would have been heard, that noise is pretty distinct

 

[31550]

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

He would have been seen multiple times on the tennis club CCTV if that was the case, wouldn't he?

 

[Underarrest_]

I would think that a car door opening and closing would have been heard, that noise is pretty distinct

I’d assume a kidnapper isn’t going to slam a car door.
It’s possible to close a door quietly.
Just close it mostly then pull shut.
If there were two people, hold it shut then close it a bit down the street.

 

[LRitz]

I'm going back to the start.
Why did they leave earlier than planned?
Why did they not inform the FGM until they were on their way? Or ask if that was ok?
Did they have to notify anyone about the kids to let them know their plans changed?
Or were they in some sort of rush to get out of Sydney or be in Kendall earlier?

When did they plan to leave?

This is again a narrative of the FPs. How could anybody know, we can not read their minds. They allege that the original plan to leave was Friday, so this is what we are led to believe. Say it over and over enough times and it becomes fact. They allege on Thursday they change the plan to leave earlier because the opportunity to get away from work arose. Remember they are in control of the timeline and these events.

Some on bigfooty have argued because the cats were not booked in for minding, is proof that it was a change in plan. But i think this is putting a cat amongst the red herrings. (See previous discussion about kitty litter).

I think, IMO, that it is possible that they always planned to drive on Thursday afternoon. The narrative of planned Friday departure is false. This resulted in:

• Narrowing the window of the photo down to just a few hours on Friday morning. it could not have been taken on Thursday night. So must have been taken sometime between enough light and say 10:20 am.
• Giving FF a reason to be out of the house that morning for an hour while he had his work call - that he had booked for that time, which coincidently was the same time allegedly the photos were taken.

So in answer to your question is first a question - what was the plan? And did they just allege they changed plans.

 

[passball]

I'm a bit confused.
Was the FF at Lakewood or Lake Cathie?
He mentions both and there is a Woolies and Khodarys at both.
I thought he said Lake Cathie first, where he had his meeting.

 

[Underarrest_]

He would have been seen multiple times on the tennis club CCTV if that was the case, wouldn't he?

I’m not too familiar with the area. Have only been out that way once.
Is there another way to travel from Benaroon to Lakewood?

 

[31550]

I’d assume a kidnapper isn’t going to slam a car door.
It’s possible to close a door quietly.
Just close it mostly then pull shut.
If there were two people, hold it shut then close it a bit down the street.

What would two people be doing driving up there at that time? Two people who simultaneously have the idea to nab a 3YO boy on impulse?
If it's one person, how do they get William into the car, and stop him getting out without shutting the door?
Why would they care about the car door being heard? It's pretty obvious anyone (responsible) with a 3YO kid is going to notice they have been taken pretty quickly. They don't need to hear a car door slam to know.