Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry Current

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[js47]

Thanks gymjam I will try to remember the comment about the shoe I read so many books and other sources. I am really positive he commented on the ‘shoe’ not shoes that started me thinking of taking him for a walk.

 

[maggiethecat]

Thankyou for your reply Kurve. I have tried every which way and loose that I can think of. I am now thinking perhaps the original post has been edited to exclude the reference or the post was deleted?

I will mentioned this anyway. Some dark-green plastic fabric-type was located at the Cobb and Co Road big dig 2020 search and I was thinking could this have been related to this 'dropsheet' reference that was on BG a few days ago? Similar looking material to a dropsheet that may have been degraded. I know there are garden bags made of this dark-green plastic fabric-type material that degrade when left with soil or other matter in them. There are also very large planting bags for tree that come in this type of fabric - almost the same size and even larger than an (older style) solid plastic household rubbish bin/container but with 2 handles on either side.

A plastic type tarp?

 

[js47]

FF, in his walkthrough, said he had walked up that trail and that's when he mentioned about looking for things on the ground, like Williams shoe.

Sounded like he did this before the 000 call.

If Rowley found him at that particular trail does that mean he went up that trail twice?

Yes so why was he up that trail again. I might just have a little walk next time I go past Kendall I also want to see another trail that I am interested in.

 

[passball]

ZERO

I have watched the FF walkthrough numerous times today and I would like to apologise for the cuddly remark, should have said built.

 

[Poppy Penny]

0oo

WHAT! I find out so much important information in this site.

Perhaps it’s because the other site is mainly controlled by the Foster Clique.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

What's his first name?

His name has never been released publicly, it was said in court ( I know it ) & I think it may be suppressed / NFP

Most neutral witnesses have been very consistent in their testimony.

The most inconsistent witnesses are the FM and FGM.

Do you have examples of a neutral witness being inconsistent?

You seem to very forgiving of the witnesses who should remember details, but critical of others. Why is that?

We would expect all the various neutral witnesses do have DIFFERENT views of things. They were all in different places at different times and were not involved in events concerning William. But that doesn't mean they are inconsistent. It's the way these are woven into the narrative which alters.

On the other hand the FM and FGM were pretty much there the whole time in pretty much one or two places (supposedly). So why are their own accounts of events SO inconsistent, even within themselves? Trauma might be one reason, but after ten years of telling and retelling, we still can't gat a single version consistent within itself.

BBM : It seems people here choose to believe what they want when it suits their narrative, & discard what doesn't.

ie yesterday you wanted to discard the time line that has been posted here by another member from another forum, now today it seems you are happy to accept the Crabb's part?

Your quote - "Really not much point posting another posters timeline from ages ago." Post # 6761

Ok so each of the Crabb's reported a different time (one said 10 minutes after they got home, the other said about 30 minutes after they got home.) This is a discrepancy (actually 20, not 30 minutes difference if we are being pedantic), not an inconsistency. Neither of them changed the time they thought they heard the car. So it's possible that they each heard a different car, or it's possible/probable they estimated the time differently, and the car was approx 20 minutes (plus or minus 10) after they got home. We don't expect them to be watching the clock do we? You are trying to discredit the Crabbs now? Why? They heard a car - one of them thinks it was around 9:40 - the other thinks it was around 10:00 - that's handy information, not inconsistent at all.

Why should the cars seen by Peter, FM, or Chapman match each other? Peter saw what he saw. Chapman saw what he saw. There is no reason why they should have seen the same thing. That is not inconsistency. Peter did not change the black Camry to a blue sedan, or change the time he saw the vehicles. Neither did Chapman. They both gave consistent accounts within themselves of what they saw.

On the other hand, FM firstly saw no cars, then two cars, then a third. At differing times in the narrative. And at times when Anne Maree, or Savage, or the Crabbs should also have seen them, but they didn't. FGM never saw any cars either. This is inconsistency.

Witness statements as I have said before are notoriously unreliable.

Again, I don't know why you are trying to discredit neutral witnesses like Chapman, the Crabbs, and Peter who are simply trying to tell what they saw. And so forgiving of the FM who cannot give a consistent version.

BBM # 1 But you do expect that the FM was expected to be watching the clock?, ok for others but seems not for her> Again suits your narrative.

BBM # 2 Detective Laura Beacroft who did so much work on all the cars , said that Anne Maree said she saw no cars @ 07:30, but Detective Beacroft also said Anne Maree did not come out of the house until 08:10 on the 12/9/2014. So just because she did not see them , does not mean they were not there

Apologies to Kurve but this really needs to be called out.

ES posted this:

And then has the audacity to challenge me when I said there was only a 20-minute difference between each of the times estimated by the Crabbs.

By my calculation 9:45 to 10:05 is 20 minutes. (Using ES times).

Suddenly that 20 minutes becomes a 30 minute discrepancy for ES.

Maybe this makes me a "pedantic know-it-all" but perhaps that is required to keep this thread on track?

Just to be clear the times that the Crabbs heard the cars were :

Mr Crabb 09:40 - 09:45

Mrs Crabb 10:10 - 10:15

Difference in their times is 30mins

They got home @ 09:30 - 09:35

Agree.
Too many cups of tea.
Black eyes. (Refer Chris Dawson.)
Hand injury / scratch. (Defensive injuries, Baden powell tried to conceal.)
Mystery phone call. (Dawson)
House not immediately closed down as a crime scene. (Dawson)

And, as others mentioned, there are upcoming events that could have been a trigger. Possible adoption. FGM selling house, so will not be able to visit this secluded street after FGM leaves.

Another point. Was there a possibility that if bio Mother opposed the adoption, she would be asking to have the children back? Was it the case that bio Mother was being kept in the dark about the adoption?

BBM : William & his sister had long term care orders in place ie until 18yrs old

This is a long shot but could FF have forgotten his script and gone back to the house. Lakewood is only a short drive away and has the only/closest chemist that I can see.
I can’t find the article where FF gives a timeline of his morning but police ask him why he didn’t get his script first given his work meeting wasn’t until 9.30. FF said that he decided to set up for his work meeting. FF then said he started the meeting early about 9.15 and it went for 15 mins or so.
FF filled his script at 10.18. I’m keeping in mind that FGM said that FF wanted to get to Lakewood early to go to the chemist.
I’ll keep looking for the article.

The FF left @ 08:55 ( just found this in my notes , stated by Detective Laura Beacroft @ the inquest ) .

Arrived in Lakewood @ approx 09:15

Meeting went for 39 minutes ( client in QLD ) , in which he received a voice message @09:45, he called this person back after his meeting while he was at the pharmacy waiting for his script ( script filled @ 10:18 )

What would two people be doing driving up there at that time? Two people who simultaneously have the idea to nab a 3YO boy on impulse?
If it's one person, how do they get William into the car, and stop him getting out without shutting the door?
Why would they care about the car door being heard? It's pretty obvious anyone (responsible) with a 3YO kid is going to notice they have been taken pretty quickly. They don't need to hear a car door slam to know.

So as not to be identified / seen maybe?

A car was heard. One car.
Premeditated has been ruled out by police as very few people knew William would be there, and those that did all have alibis according to police.
Random is of course possible but very unlikely given location and time of day and short window.
Sunday drivers (well, Friday morning) - it's a dead-end street. Yeah, could have been someone who took a wrong turn and found the dead end so turned around, but why haven't they come forward and identified themselves?
There are known pedos in the area and SFR probably interviewed all the known ones to eliminate them.
An unknown pedo had to be in exactly the right place at the right time, and also has to be very cunning and skilful to not be seen and to get away with this, and any subsequent offences for 10 years. I suggest that anyone suspected of paedophilia in the area in the last 10 years would have been profiled for this case too.

That's why they are called opportunistic abductions, the opportunity arises & they act.

How convenient the green car pulled into Millers drive way at # 52. Guess what, no one home, they were away, and everyone knew that. So no witness to prove or contest allegation.

I'd be interesting to know what William's sister said about this & I'm sure she would have been asked at some time. The Coroner would know.

First I have heard of that.

Do you have a link? to Mr Savage seeing two cars in the same spot on Benaroon on the Thursday?
Anne Maree was pretty sure there were no cars on the Friday.

FGM had lots of suspects. Ducks in a line. Two repair men (incidentally FGM had organised them to visit the house) the man that comes and goes that is creepy, then later Savage gets added. Needed to keep police busy. Again all IMO.

Paul savage said it at the inquest in his testimony. Again, Anne Maree had not been out of her house to see the cars @ 07:30.

 

[passball]

Can you explain what you mean by 'tracker' please?

FF didn't use the word tracker.
That was just my word after listening to him saying he was in Cubs, Scouts, Venturers, going bush on bike rides, and then deciding which route he thought William could have possibly taken.

 

[Poppy Penny]

Watched the FF walkthrough and full respect for the other guy staying calm listening to that BS.

Worse than water torture! Total w***er.

 

[js47]

I hope the bios legals ask the million dollar question and get a million dollar answer. I really tried to look at William’s disappearance in an objective way but the foster keep pretending to be subjectively vague.
I know I will once again be dumped on but IMO William was at the house or very close. FM drove to meet FF to tell him that William had been abducted. That night FF was told the truth and was shown William, hence the ambulance. If Opa died in the house it would confuse the cadaver dog. That night William went. And maybe FF comment about keeping up was the truth. William was only with them two and half years approx. and he was in day care a lot they were with friends etc. they really did not spend that much time with him.

 

[31550]

BBM # 1 But you do expect that the FM was expected to be watching the clock?, ok for others but seems not for her> Again suits your narrative.

BBM # 2 Detective Laura Beacroft who did so much work on all the cars , said that Anne Maree said she saw no cars @ 07:30, but Detective Beacroft also said Anne Maree did not come out of the house until 08:10 on the 12/9/2014. So just because she did not see them , does not mean they were not there

I don't expect her to get her times precise. I do expect her to have one consistent narrative rather than several, and to be reasonably aware of the sequence of events. E.g was the drive before FF came home or after? Before she saw Anne Marie or after?

Anne Marie dropped her kids at the bus stop on foot in the morning, meaning she walked down and up Benaroon. The cars would have been right in front of her for a couple of minutes while she walked back home. But she didn't see them. Also said at some point that cars parked there would be very unusual as all the houses had driveways which visitors could park in. So it's remarkable that she wouldn't notice 2 cars parked unusually right near her own house.

Again we have someone undermining a neutral witness and challenging their credibility yet defending the FM. Why?

 

[alwaysintrigued]

Do we know where fostergrandmother stored her vehicle keys? Maybe in her bedroom which was very adjacent to the kitchen. Could FM have looked and found the keys when she was inside make the infamous cup of tea? Then placed William in her mother's vehicle? Stayed and had tea, then did a disappearing act - maybe her mother thought she was in the loo or tidying up the bedrooms? Would she really tell people where she was going (in the car) or would she just sneak out? I wonder what the level of 'hearing' her mother had and if she was tone deaf to some common noises like her own vehicle starting up? I've not heard a Mazda 3 start up, so I now wonder how it sounded?

BBM : Kitchen bench near the house phone.

 

[js47]

If William was at the house or near by. Then the time of the photos do not really matter, the games, the breakfast doesn’t matter, the drive to meet the FF would make sense.
…”and this is where it happened”.
The patio. I think the same lack of control may have happened on that day.

 

[31550]

That's why they are called opportunistic abductions, the opportunity arises & they act.

In this case the opportunity presented itself in minutes, at the end of a dead end street, at a private residence. That doesn't fit the MO of an opportunistic abductor. They usually scout a location or locations which are public, and where there is a high probability of accessing a suitable victim. Why pick a private house where no children live at the end of a quiet street at 10am on a Friday? That's like winning Tattslotto with a single game ticket on your first attempt.

 

[passball]

Worse than water torture! Total w***er.

It was. The sneeze and dropping the tissue 'WOOPS'.
He was very much taking the guy to that side of and away from the house.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

I don't expect her to get her times precise. I do expect her to have one consistent narrative rather than several, and to be reasonably aware of the sequence of events. E.g was the drive before FF came home or after? Before she saw Anne Marie or after?

Anne Marie dropped her kids at the bus stop on foot in the morning, meaning she walked down and up Benaroon. The cars would have been right in front of her for a couple of minutes while she walked back home. But she didn't see them. Also said at some point that cars parked there would be very unusual as all the houses had driveways which visitors could park in. So it's remarkable that she wouldn't notice 2 cars parked unusually right near her own house.

Again we have someone undermining a neutral witness and challenging their credibility yet defending the FM. Why?

FM said she saw the cars @07:30. Anne Maree walked some of her kids to the bus stop @ 08:10, saw no cars ( I suggest cars had left ) She drove another child to to pre-school @ 08:40. She reversed out & saw no cars at that time either.

Detective Beacroft made a point to say that Anne Maree was not outside to see the cars before 08:10.

I'm not undermining anyone, just point out the fact she had not been outside to see the alleged cars that the FM said she saw @ 07:30, hence the cars cannot 100% be ruled out as not being there!

If you think that's defending the FM than that's your assumption.

 

[31550]

BBM : Kitchen bench near the house phone.

How do you know that?

 

[31550]

FM said she saw the cars @07:30. Anne Maree walked some of her kids to the bus stop @ 08:10, saw no cars ( I suggest cars had left ) She drove another child to to pre-school @ 08:40. She reversed out & saw no cars at that time either.

Detective Beacroft made a point to say that Anne Maree was not outside to see the cars before 08:10.

I'm not undermining anyone, just point out the fact she had not been outside to see the alleged cars that the FM said she saw @ 07:30, hence the cars cannot 100% be ruled out as not being there!

If you think that's defending the FM than that's your assumption.

If the cars were gone at 8.40 then of what relevance are they anyway? William was alive and well at 9.37. Whether they were there or not earlier depends on whether you believe FM or Anne Maree.
Since FM did not originally recall the cars, but Anne Maree is positive she dropped her kids off, I am more inclined to believe Anne Maree that she would have seen them if they were there at that time. FM is more likely to have been mistaken about the cars or the time IMO because she is also confused about where and when other things happened. Whereas Anne Maree knows exactly where she was and when. That's my view.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

His name has never been released publicly, it was said in court ( I know it ) & I think it may be suppressed / NFP

BBM : It seems people here choose to believe what they want when it suits their narrative, & discard what doesn't.

ie yesterday you wanted to discard the time line that has been posted here by another member from another forum, now today it seems you are happy to accept the Crabb's part?

Your quote - "Really not much point posting another posters timeline from ages ago." Post # 6761

BBM # 1 But you do expect that the FM was expected to be watching the clock?, ok for others but seems not for her> Again suits your narrative.

BBM # 2 Detective Laura Beacroft who did so much work on all the cars , said that Anne Maree said she saw no cars @ 07:30, but Detective Beacroft also said Anne Maree did not come out of the house until 08:10 on the 12/9/2014. So just because she did not see them , does not mean they were not there

Just to be clear the times that the Crabbs heard the cars were :

Mr Crabb 09:40 - 09:45

Mrs Crabb 10:10 - 10:15

Difference in their times is 30mins

They got home @ 09:30 - 09:35


BBM : William & his sister had long term care orders in place ie until 18yrs old

The FF left @ 08:55 ( just found this in my notes , stated by Detective Laura Beacroft @ the inquest ) .

Arrived in Lakewood @ approx 09:15

Meeting went for 39 minutes ( client in QLD ) , in which he received a voice message @09:45, he called this person back after his meeting while he was at the pharmacy waiting for his script ( script filled @ 10:18 )


So as not to be identified / seen maybe?

That's why they are called opportunistic abductions, the opportunity arises & they act.

I'd be interesting to know what William's sister said about this & I'm sure she would have been asked at some time. The Coroner would know.

Paul savage said it at the inquest in his testimony. Again, Anne Maree had not been out of her house to see the cars @ 07:30.

Omg that was one MASSIVE point scoring attempt to 31550 and apparently 'us' here.

The only comment I make is regarding opportunistic abductors. YES they get their name for a reason.....because they TAKE opportunity. The fallacy is that they must both be opportunistic predator but there must also exist AN opportunity. Perhaps you should look at the traffic analysis posted by Stormbird ages ago which tells you exactly how many cars come into the street or more accurately DON'T in a 1 hr morning period.. It's very fair to characterise it as only residents or those needing to come there. That designation has even been confirmed by the FPs themselves several times ( a rare occasion they weren't pushing an abduction hoax). That being the case you can pretty much guarantee that the 5 min time (assuming it wasn't a lie) in the timescale encompassing that morning AND when W was likely 70 metres away from the street presented NO opportunity. Cars heard/ seen also tells you that. Either you don't understand this situation or you choose to ignore it to have a chance to point score. Either way I loose interest. The probability that a predator just happened to be in the street at the exact time W was unattended and close to road is well in excess of 1,000,000 to 1. You can quantify if you try. I confidently say it didn't happen..

 

[Underarrest_]

In this case the opportunity presented itself in minutes, at the end of a dead end street, at a private residence. That doesn't fit the MO of an opportunistic abductor. They usually scout a location or locations which are public, and where there is a high probability of accessing a suitable victim. Why pick a private house where no children live at the end of a quiet street at 10am on a Friday? That's like winning Tattslotto with a single game ticket on your first attempt.

Opportunistic means that.
Sees an opportunity and acts on it. Not planned or seeked out.
Example turning onto Elendale st, sees child at end of slope so drives further up instead of turning into Elendale, asks William if he’s seen a puppy, William comes closer, put in car, car drives away.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

In this case the opportunity presented itself in minutes, at the end of a dead end street, at a private residence. That doesn't fit the MO of an opportunistic abductor. They usually scout a location or locations which are public, and where there is a high probability of accessing a suitable victim. Why pick a private house where no children live at the end of a quiet street at 10am on a Friday? That's like winning Tattslotto with a single game ticket on your first attempt.

Usually it is minutes, by logic has to be really.

Can you say for certain that no one other than the FF & FGM knew that there were kids there that morning??

I think it's reasonable for other posters to look at other scenarios other than the evil FM / FF /FGM.

I like to keep an open mind.

I've seen & heard no concrete evidence to support the current police theory, but have heard lots of other evidence to support other theories.

How do you know that?

It was said recently at the inquest

 

[31550]

Opportunistic means that.
Sees an opportunity and acts on it. Not planned or seeked out.
Example turning onto Elendale st, sees child at end of slope so drives further up instead of turning into Elendale, asks William if he’s seen a puppy, William comes closer, put in car, car drives away.

You left out the scrambled eggs toast and orange juice and that everyone was happy.

 

[Kurve]

0oo

Perhaps it’s because the other site is mainly controlled by the Foster Clique.

Yes, well the fosters PR firm Insight employed several Social Media Monitors for some time, who knows how effective they were in steering public discussion? And if they're still active across socials.

 

[Underarrest_]

You left out the scrambled eggs toast and orange juice and that everyone was happy.

You left out weetbix

 

[31550]

Yes, well the fosters PR firm Insight employed several Social Media Monitors for some time, who knows how effective they were in steering public discussion? And if they're still active across socials.

Suggest you look a little closer at the recent conversations in this thread Kurve

 

[LRitz]

I'm a bit confused.
Was the FF at Lakewood or Lake Cathie?
He mentions both and there is a Woolies and Khodarys at both.
I thought he said Lake Cathie first, where he had his meeting.

Just a question. If any one knows.

Where is the statement about Lake Cathie by FF. Is it a statement to police or is it an interview with journalists? Is it a voice recording or written. It is hard to keep up with all these references.

Lake Cathie is about 20 km away. FF is familiar with the area. How could he get this mixed up?Why would he drive further when there is Lake wood closer. Are we sure he said "Cathie" ???

Lake Cathie is pronounced like "cat - eye".

(I had a friend who visited there for many years over summery holidays. She always called in Lake "Cathy". Until after years a kind local set her straight. )