Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[js47]

I wonder what the FGM would feel if FM transported something in her car that the FGM every time she used that car would have to live with. It would be a reason not to talk to her daughter maybe. (If it was me I would ask for a new Land Rover)

 

[Wallace52]

Caroline Overington talked about the text in her podcast (but didn't explain where this information came from):

"Unable to find William, she [FM] ran back to the house to get her phone. She was hoping to find a message from the foster father saying something like 'Hey! What's going on? I've just found William wandering out the front!' Because William was in the habit of looking out for his foster dad's car. And there was a text, but it didn't say 'Hey, I've got William!' it said 'Home in 5!'
William's foster dad has told police that he used Siri to send that message, and that's been verified.
The foster mum ran out, onto the driveway, just as the foster dad was pulling in."

- from Nowhere Child, episode 2: "More than William", 26 July 2019 on Listen Notes, from about 5 minutes but the time varies; transcript by me.

And FM talked about the phone when she was at the inquest:

From Searching for Spiderman, 2020, page 167 (about the inquest hearing when FM was being examined by Peter O'Brien, the lawyer representing Bill Spedding):

"Anna [pseudonym for FM] said she didn't make many calls that day. Her mobile phone was in the house while she was out in the yard and on the verandah. She explained she wasn't diligent in checking messages and doesn't remember whether police checked messages left on any of the phones that day."

Great post! Thank you.

If you’ve seen her call records you will know that she is usually on her phone all day every day, and the morning W went missing was not analogous with her usual mobile phone use patterns.

 

[js47]

The FM was wearing what looked like sports gear in the police interview. She may not have had a pocket in clothing she wore that day.

 

[Wallace52]

They didn’t need to shut the gate because the damage was already done according to the police wasn’t it?

Yeah maybe, but wouldn’t you be conscious of, you know, trying to make it look “safe?”

 

[Wallace52]

The FM was wearing what looked like sports gear in the police interview. She may not have had a pocket in clothing she wore that day.

That’s a great point!

She could throw her iPhone down her bra or inside the top of her leggings, or just hold it, or place it in a hand bag or a bum bag.

It’s not like she’s physically disabled. She had the use of both hands and arms to grip and hold objects.

 

[Wallace52]

I wonder what the FGM would feel if FM transported something in her car that the FGM every time she used that car would have to live with. It would be a reason not to talk to her daughter maybe. (If it was me I would ask for a new Land Rover)

I would bet if a body was moved in the little hatchback, the FGM didn’t know about it.

She held onto that car until she died and it was passed down to a younger family member in the will.

IMO

That would have been a bit callous to drive around in that car for the remainder of her life if she knew a crime had occurred in that car or that a body was moved in there.

It doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[31550]

The foster mum ran out, onto the driveway, just as the foster dad was pulling in."

Just another part of the narrative which makes no sense. If this was true, why didn't she immediately ask him to drive back down Benaroon and look for William, possibly on his way to the riding school? Because she'd already been there and knew he wasn't there? If so, how did she search the property and complete the drive before 10:30 if William had only been gone 5 minutes?

Or, wouldn't it have made sense for FM to stay with FGM and Williams sister while FF took the 4WD with a much better view of the road and surrounds to look for William?

What possible purpose did it serve for FF to run around the back yard looking for William if she'd already done that and couldn't find him? Better off getting back in his car or looking in places she hadn't got to already.

The FGM property is not that big, is fairly open and he was in a Spiderman suit. If he was hiding or hurt I'd have found him in 5 minutes.

 

[stormbird]

Just another part of the narrative which makes no sense. If this was true, why didn't she immediately ask him to drive back down Benaroon and look for William, possibly on his way to the riding school? Because she'd already been there and knew he wasn't there? If so, how did she search the property and complete the drive before 10:30 if William had only been gone 5 minutes?

Or, wouldn't it have made sense for FM to stay with FGM and Williams sister while FF took the 4WD with a much better view of the road and surrounds to look for William?

What possible purpose did it serve for FF to run around the back yard looking for William if she'd already done that and couldn't find him? Better off getting back in his car or looking in places she hadn't got to already.

The FGM property is not that big, is fairly open and he was in a Spiderman suit. If he was hiding or hurt I'd have found him in 5 minutes.

Just re this: "What possible purpose did it serve for FF to run around the back yard looking for William if she'd already done that and couldn't find him?"

FF didn't run around the backyard. As he describes in his walk-through, after FM showed him where she'd last seen William (which was in FGM's backyard), the first thing FF did was run across or around the backyard next door, at No.52. He ran around the boundaries with No.30 Benaroon, Nos 13 and 15 Ellendale, then up to the house at No.52, then up the track to the cemetery and back. IMO it was quite bizarre (unless William had ever been over to those locations before).

 

[31550]

Just re this: "What possible purpose did it serve for FF to run around the back yard looking for William if she'd already done that and couldn't find him?"

FF didn't run around the backyard. As he describes in his walk-through, after FM showed him where she'd last seen William (which was in FGM's backyard), the first thing FF did was run across or around the backyard next door, at No.52. He ran around the boundaries with No.30 Benaroon, Nos 13 and 15 Ellendale, then up to the house at No.52, then up the track to the cemetery and back. IMO it was quite bizarre (unless William had ever been over to those locations before).

So where was FM when FF was doing all this? Wandering down Benaroon talking to neighbours? That's where she was when police arrived, just after 11am. And I thought FM and FF went to #52 together? Did she take the drive after FF got home and before dialling 000? How does that fit the timeline? The indications are that she had already driven FGMs car before FF returned. But then she wouldn't have had time to do anything else, like looking for William in the garden and house, and walking down Benaroon and hearing the 'scream'. Did she take off in the car after the police arrived? Nobody saw her.

 

[LRitz]

So where was FM when FF was doing all this? Wandering down Benaroon talking to neighbours? That's where she was when police arrived, just after 11am. And I thought FM and FF went to #52 together? Did she take the drive after FF got home and before dialling 000? How does that fit the timeline? The indications are that she had already driven FGMs car before FF returned. But then she wouldn't have had time to do anything else, like looking for William in the garden and house, and walking down Benaroon and hearing the 'scream'. Did she take off in the car after the police arrived? Nobody saw her.

Agree. It is confusing. I don't know if this is planned confusion about the search between 10:30 and the time the police arrive. Or why stories and narratives changed over time. Maybe police could get them and the neighbours to reenact the morning.

I thought neighbours across the road at 51 said both FM and a man, who they later identified as FF, went together to their driveway to ask about William, before the police arrived. But FF in his walkthrough said he started searching by himself and did not particularly see anyone. He said he searched for a long time( he mentioned how long, was it 60 minute, but I can't recall exact time. Maybe someone else can help). I suppose this could include going across the road to 51, but why omit it. There is no impression that he has a trouble with his memory. Maybe his search did not happen quite like he reported. And when the police arrive, which was about 35 - 40 minutes after FF had arrived back, he was not searching but is in the house.

FGM said FM went down the side of the house to the road looking for William. FGM says when she followed FM she could see FM speaking to neighbour AM. Correction: FGM could not see FM. FGM said she saw AMS and spoke to her. Did this neighbour see FF return in his car? FGM then walked back the same way to the back yard. As I said before, why not walk to the front of the house and the driveway to see if William had circled the house - he could have been looking for his bike, or have by the, been back inside the house. And everything after this point is a blur for FGM.

My edit: FGM says she saw AMS. She says she did not see FM. She does not mention hearing FM calling out for William.

 

[LRitz]

Caroline Overington talked about the text in her podcast (but didn't explain where this information came from):

"Unable to find William, she [FM] ran back to the house to get her phone. She was hoping to find a message from the foster father saying something like 'Hey! What's going on? I've just found William wandering out the front!' Because William was in the habit of looking out for his foster dad's car. And there was a text, but it didn't say 'Hey, I've got William!' it said 'Home in 5!'
William's foster dad has told police that he used Siri to send that message, and that's been verified.
The foster mum ran out, onto the driveway, just as the foster dad was pulling in."

- from Nowhere Child, episode 2: "More than William", 26 July 2019 on Listen Notes, from about 5 minutes but the time varies; transcript by me.

And FM talked about the phone when she was at the inquest:

From Searching for Spiderman, 2020, page 167 (about the inquest hearing when FM was being examined by Peter O'Brien, the lawyer representing Bill Spedding):

"Anna [pseudonym for FM] said she didn't make many calls that day. Her mobile phone was in the house while she was out in the yard and on the verandah. She explained she wasn't diligent in checking messages and doesn't remember whether police checked messages left on any of the phones that day."

Regarding the text. It was deleted from FM's phone. But a message was sent from FF by Siri "and that's been verified." (my bolding) . So there was definitely a message from FF to FM ? Sent by Siri, does that mean there is no record of the content of the message? And was this message really verified. I am starting to doubt everything.

What time is now considered the missing time for William? If FM takes 5 minutes to notice William missing. 5 minutes to run to the front of the house and start looking. Speak to neighbour AM. Then AM and FM walk to the end of Benaroon drive and back, 8 minutes. And where to slot in the drive to Batar Creek Rd and the mystery semi. Has anyone done a comprehensive time line?

 

[31550]

Regarding the text. It was deleted from FM's phone. But a message was sent from FF by Siri "and that's been verified." (my bolding) . So there was definitely a message from FF to FM ? Sent by Siri, does that mean there is no record of the content of the message? And was this message really verified. I am starting to doubt everything.

What time is now considered the missing time for William? If FM takes 5 minutes to notice William missing. 5 minutes to run to the front of the house and start looking. Speak to neighbour AM. Then AM and FM walk to the end of Benaroon drive and back, 8 minutes. And where to slot in the drive to Batar Creek Rd and the mystery semi. Has anyone done a comprehensive time line?

Verified by whom? That's the question. We haven't seen any physical evidence of this message.
I've had numerous attempts to fit the various narratives to the timeline using physical evidence as fixed points (phone calls, pharmacy receipt, the 9:37 'roar' photograph). You can get almost everything to fit, except the FM drive in FGM car. IMO it simply could not have happened the way she describes the drive in relation to other known, accepted events.

 

[Wallace52]

"What possible purpose did it serve for FF to run around the back yard looking for William if she'd already done that and couldn't find him?"

Wasn’t that FF found crying in the bathroom? Was that before or after he ran around the backyard calling out “William!”, “William!”
??

 

[31550]

Wasn’t that FF found crying in the bathroom? Was that before or after he ran around the backyard calling out “William!”, “William!”
??

Well, yeah he says he ran around outside before the police arrived, but he was observed coming from the bathroom by one of the first responders (Rowley?).
So his outside running around couldn't have been more than 30 minutes.

 

[stormbird]

So where was FM when FF was doing all this? Wandering down Benaroon talking to neighbours? That's where she was when police arrived, just after 11am. And I thought FM and FF went to #52 together? Did she take the drive after FF got home and before dialling 000? How does that fit the timeline? The indications are that she had already driven FGMs car before FF returned. But then she wouldn't have had time to do anything else, like looking for William in the garden and house, and walking down Benaroon and hearing the 'scream'. Did she take off in the car after the police arrived? Nobody saw her.

31550, I think your focus is the timing of the drive in FGM's car? This is what Daily Mail Australia said nearly three years ago, quoting an unnamed NSW Police source (and it also mentions the idea that FM might have thrown something from the car - discussed here the other day):

---

Daily Mail, 17 Nov 2021

"A NSW Police source said officers believe an object may have been thrown from the vehicle as it was driven along Batar Road at Kendall. That area is the middle of a massive forensic police search.

Daily Mail Australia has also learned the alleged unspecified object is part of the focus of forensic search currently underway for traces of William, about 700m from his foster grandmother's home.

The foster mother allegedly made the drive in her mother's car before her husband had returned to the house to join the search for William."

---

The Big Dig seems to have found nothing useful though (or not unless it was just not reported to the public), which in my opinion means there's no reason to think that FM actually did hide William's body near the "riding school" or threw something from the car.

More interesting to me is the report by Ms C at No.51 that they were alerted to William's disappearance by FM and FF running up their driveway. I previously rambled on and on about this in
post 337
post 339
post 343, etc.

 

[31550]

31550, I think your focus is the timing of the drive in FGM's car? This is what Daily Mail Australia said nearly three years ago, quoting an unnamed NSW Police source (and it also mentions the idea that FM might have thrown something from the car - discussed here the other day):

---

Daily Mail, 17 Nov 2021

"A NSW Police source said officers believe an object may have been thrown from the vehicle as it was driven along Batar Road at Kendall. That area is the middle of a massive forensic police search.

Daily Mail Australia has also learned the alleged unspecified object is part of the focus of forensic search currently underway for traces of William, about 700m from his foster grandmother's home.

The foster mother allegedly made the drive in her mother's car before her husband had returned to the house to join the search for William."

---

The Big Dig seems to have found nothing useful though (or not unless it was just not reported to the public), which in my opinion means there's no reason to think that FM actually did hide William's body near the "riding school" or threw something from the car.

More interesting to me is the report by Ms C at No.51 that they were alerted to William's disappearance by FM and FF running up their driveway. I previously rambled on and on about this in
post 337
post 339
post 343, etc.

So that source (although unnamed) indicates the drive was before FF returned home.
Apologies for repeating this, but it makes no sense, and doesn't fit the timeline:

• 9:37 - Roar photograph
• Cups of tea are made
• William jumps off deck
• '5 minutes' pass - "He's a bit quiet, I better go check!"
• FM searches front yard (and the house?) and Benaroon
• after a while, FGM follows FM and sees her standing/walking on Benaroon talking to neighbour
• FF sends a text 'home in 5', not seen by FM
• FM supposedly meets FF car in driveway, just after 10:30 ("Have you got William"?)
• FGM returns to verandah, and then sees FF ("He already knew")
• FF starts searching back yard
• FM dials 000 from FGM home shortly before 11:00am
• FM and FF interface with neighbours around 11:00am
• police arrive just after 11:00am and FM is in the street, FF is coming out of bathroom

How does the drive possibly fit into this? (Please correct the timeline if it's not right).

 

[DropBearess]

Neighbour AMS posts in a private group from time to time under her own full name. She strongly disputes SD's version and timeline of events during the initial search, when SD claims to have "raced" here and "raced" there. I believe AMS also shook her head at the inquest when SD described her movements that morning.

On SM-A205YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[stormbird]

So that source (although unnamed) indicates the drive was before FF returned home.
Apologies for repeating this, but it makes no sense, and doesn't fit the timeline:

• 9:37 - Roar photograph
• Cups of tea are made
• William jumps off deck
• '5 minutes' pass - "He's a bit quiet, I better go check!"
• FM searches front yard (and the house?) and Benaroon
• after a while, FGM follows FM and sees her standing/walking on Benaroon talking to neighbour
• FF sends a text 'home in 5', not seen by FM
• FM supposedly meets FF car in driveway, just after 10:30 ("Have you got William"?)
• FGM returns to verandah, and then sees FF ("He already knew")
• FF starts searching back yard
• FM dials 000 from FGM home shortly before 11:00am
• FM and FF interface with neighbours around 11:00am
• police arrive just after 11:00am and FM is in the street, FF is coming out of bathroom

How does the drive possibly fit into this? (Please correct the timeline if it's not right).

My guess at a timeline:

• 9:37 - last photo
• ? - the rolling dice game
• ? - William jumps onto the grass, running to and from the little lawn around the corner
• ? - FM makes tea and takes it to the patio
• ? - William's sister is drawing; FGM and FM start their teas
• ? - FM realises she hasn't heard William for a while, goes to look
• ? - FM looks around the yard, through the house, gets the keys to her mum's car from the kitchen and drives to wherever and back
• 10:30 - FM returns to house, sees the text on her phone, and with William's sister (who was presumably still on the patio?) gets to the driveway in time to meet FF as he drives in
• 10:35 - FM takes FF around past the patio (where FGM is still sitting?) and shows him where William was last seen
• 10:40 - FF takes off running around No.52, and FM goes down the hill to Benaroon Drive where she meets Anne-Maree (and Anne-Maree hears FF calling William in his search up the hill); they walk along the road looking into driveways and maybe down as far as the bus stop (scene of the supposed scream from reeds)
• 10:45 - FGM and William's sister leave the patio and go down the hill looking for FM
• ? - FGM (talking to Anne-Maree?) sees FM walking back (from searching Ellendale Crescent?) and they go back to the house
• 10:50 - Anne-Maree alerts Paul at No.43; Paul (and maybe Anne-Maree?) go up to the house
• 10:56 - FM calls police
• ? - FF runs back to the house, FGM thinks he's just arrived home
• 11:06 - first police officer arrives, finding FM back down on Benaroon Drive; FGM lets him into the house, and FF is in the bathroom.

 

[31550]

My guess at a timeline:

• 9:37 - last photo
• ? - the rolling dice game
• ? - William jumps onto the grass, running to and from the little lawn around the corner
• ? - FM makes tea and takes it to the patio
• ? - William's sister is drawing; FGM and FM start their teas
• ? - FM realises she hasn't heard William for a while, goes to look
• ? - FM looks around the yard, through the house, gets the keys to her mum's car from the kitchen and drives to wherever and back
• 10:30 - FM returns to house, sees the text on her phone, and with William's sister (who was presumably still on the patio?) gets to the driveway in time to meet FF as he drives in
• 10:35 - FM takes FF around past the patio (where FGM is still sitting?) and shows him where William was last seen
• 10:40 - FF takes off running around No.52, and FM goes down the hill to Benaroon Drive where she meets Anne-Maree (and Anne-Maree hears FF calling William in his search up the hill); they walk along the road looking into driveways and maybe down as far as the bus stop (scene of the supposed scream from reeds)
• 10:45 - FGM and William's sister leave the patio and go down the hill looking for FM
• ? - FGM (talking to Anne-Maree?) sees FM walking back (from searching Ellendale Crescent?) and they go back to the house
• 10:50 - Anne-Maree alerts Paul at No.43; Paul (and maybe Anne-Maree?) go up to the house
• 10:56 - FM calls police
• ? - FF runs back to the house, FGM thinks he's just arrived home
• 11:06 - first police officer arrives, finding FM back down on Benaroon Drive; FGM lets him into the house, and FF is in the bathroom.

Thanks. That conflicts with FGM walkthrough where she says FM went down the street before FF returned home. She followed later and then saw FM walking back up, then FGM walked back to the verandah where she encountered FF who 'already knew'.

 

[CodyRose]

Regarding the text. It was deleted from FM's phone. But a message was sent from FF by Siri "and that's been verified." (my bolding) . So there was definitely a message from FF to FM ? Sent by Siri, does that mean there is no record of the content of the message? And was this message really verified. I am starting to doubt everything.

What time is now considered the missing time for William? If FM takes 5 minutes to notice William missing. 5 minutes to run to the front of the house and start looking. Speak to neighbour AM. Then AM and FM walk to the end of Benaroon drive and back, 8 minutes. And where to slot in the drive to Batar Creek Rd and the mystery semi. Has anyone done a comprehensive time line?

The time line is off imo, may not be intentional though.

 

[CodyRose]

31550, I think your focus is the timing of the drive in FGM's car? This is what Daily Mail Australia said nearly three years ago, quoting an unnamed NSW Police source (and it also mentions the idea that FM might have thrown something from the car - discussed here the other day):

---

Daily Mail, 17 Nov 2021

"A NSW Police source said officers believe an object may have been thrown from the vehicle as it was driven along Batar Road at Kendall. That area is the middle of a massive forensic police search.

Daily Mail Australia has also learned the alleged unspecified object is part of the focus of forensic search currently underway for traces of William, about 700m from his foster grandmother's home.

The foster mother allegedly made the drive in her mother's car before her husband had returned to the house to join the search for William."

---

The Big Dig seems to have found nothing useful though (or not unless it was just not reported to the public), which in my opinion means there's no reason to think that FM actually did hide William's body near the "riding school" or threw something from the car.

More interesting to me is the report by Ms C at No.51 that they were alerted to William's disappearance by FM and FF running up their driveway. I previously rambled on and on about this in
post 337
post 339
post 343, etc.

No-one saw FM throw anything out of a car imo

 

[31550]

No-one saw FM throw anything out of a car imo

Yeah that seems to have been just a fishing exercise.

 

[js47]

So that source (although unnamed) indicates the drive was before FF returned home.
Apologies for repeating this, but it makes no sense, and doesn't fit the timeline:

• 9:37 - Roar photograph
• Cups of tea are made
• William jumps off deck
• '5 minutes' pass - "He's a bit quiet, I better go check!"
• FM searches front yard (and the house?) and Benaroon
• after a while, FGM follows FM and sees her standing/walking on Benaroon talking to neighbour
• FF sends a text 'home in 5', not seen by FM
• FM supposedly meets FF car in driveway, just after 10:30 ("Have you got William"?)
• FGM returns to verandah, and then sees FF ("He already knew")
• FF starts searching back yard
• FM dials 000 from FGM home shortly before 11:00am
• FM and FF interface with neighbours around 11:00am
• police arrive just after 11:00am and FM is in the street, FF is coming out of bathroom

How does the drive possibly fit into this? (Please correct the timeline if it's not right).

31550 I have always wondered if someone else could have made this drive for her? Like Mum I cannot find William could you drive down the road…etc.

 

[31550]

31550 I have always wondered if someone else could have made this drive for her? Like Mum I cannot find William could you drive down the road…etc.

Yeah possible but why lie about it?
I am not even sure the drive happened at all, but everything about it is nonsensical and therefore suspicious.

 

[js47]

If you know the property I find it hard to believe the FGM didn’t immediately hear FM calling out. It is very open. Also if the neighbours heard children playing they would have heard FRANTIC yelling for William wouldn’t they?