Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[js47]

Yeah possible but why lie about it?
I am not even sure the drive happened at all, but everything about it is nonsensical and therefore suspicious.

That is just it. So much comes across like lies.

 

[js47]

Thanks. That conflicts with FGM walkthrough where she says FM went down the street before FF returned home. She followed later and then saw FM walking back up, then FGM walked back to the verandah where she encountered FF who 'already knew'.

Hang on! Where did FGM go if she …’followed later and then saw FM walking back to the verandah where she encountered FF who ‘already knew’. I thought FGM was sitting on the deck when FF returned home?

 

[31550]

Hang on! Where did FGM go if she …’followed later and then saw FM walking back to the verandah where she encountered FF who ‘already knew’. I thought FGM was sitting on the deck when FF returned home?

No. FF says in his walkthrough "They were sitting there" - pointing to the verandah, but that doesn't mean he saw them sitting there. That means he was told they were sitting there when William ran off. (By FM).
FF was supposedly met in the carport by FM who asked him if he had William. Then he ran off looking. By this time FGM said she had returned to the back yard and saw him, "He already knew" - because FM met him in the carport.

 

[shorsky]

Fm admitted to the foster care worker that she was finding him very difficult. Some people don’t have any issue managing troubled children, however the FM said it was hard.

Agree, according to reports, FM did say she was struggling / finding William difficult.

But that statement imo does not necessarily equate to ‘William is a difficult child’. … given the chance, I wonder how he will’ve described their relationship ?

If I recall correctly, she also complained that William rejected her ( or similar) when they first got him - omg, what did she expect of a baby dragged from his parents & thrust into unfamiliar territory with strangers !

Not to diminish her feelings, but also considering the many who are doing it all on their own - some would consider FM to be lucky - she had someone she could vent to, someone in a position of power, and had all manner of care & support services at their disposal (as opposed to the challenges others face )

I don’t know anyone who has said that caring for / raising children is a walk-in-the-park. . there’s a huge responsibility ( and often not much sleep ) that comes with deciding to take on board the development of a small person.

 

[shorsky]

Neighbour AMS posts in a private group from time to time under her own full name. She strongly disputes SD's version and timeline of events during the initial search, when SD claims to have "raced" here and "raced" there. I believe AMS also shook her head at the inquest when SD described her movements that morning.

On SM-A205YN using BigFooty.com mobile app

So why doesn’t AMS go to the Police / Strike Force (/ even the coroner) & state what she believes to be the Truth ?

What real use is shaking her head … I’ve got no time for people who are full of ‘side comments’, but aren’t prepared to Own them

 

[stormbird]

No. FF says in his walkthrough "They were sitting there" - pointing to the verandah, but that doesn't mean he saw them sitting there. That means he was told they were sitting there when William ran off. (By FM).
FF was supposedly met in the carport by FM who asked him if he had William. Then he ran off looking. By this time FGM said she had returned to the back yard and saw him, "He already knew" - because FM met him in the carport.

Re: FF says in his walkthrough "They were sitting there"...

That's not the way it sounds to me. Here's the video: Daily Mail, YouTube, 25 March 2019, from about 5 seconds.

After FF points at the patio I think he says "[bleeped] still sitting down" - which I think probably means something like "FGM was still sitting down."

William's sister had met him at the car with FM, so it probably can't have been her. From "William's Mum and Dad Speak - Part 1", from 04:37:

FF: I'd just finished what I was doing in town, near Laurieton, and had driven back, and I drove in the garage, and then my wife appeared, with William's, umm, sister. And she's looked at me and said, "Is William with you?"

 

[stormbird]

So why doesn’t AMS go to the Police / Strike Force (/ even the coroner) & state what she believes to be the Truth ?

What real use is shaking her head … I’ve got no time for people who are full of ‘side comments’, but aren’t prepared to Own them

AMS gave evidence for the coroner on the second day of the inquest (26 March 2019) and she would have talked to police before that for her witness statement.

 

[Wallace52]

So why doesn’t AMS go to the Police / Strike Force (/ even the coroner) & state what she believes to be the Truth ?

What real use is shaking her head … I’ve got no time for people who are full of ‘side comments’, but aren’t prepared to Own them

That’s a great point.

Hopefully she’s been re-interviewed by the strike force, since 2021.

 

[31550]

That’s a great point.

Hopefully she’s been re-interviewed by the strike force, since 2021.

AMS was (at least until mid 2015) part of the local (Kendall) group who continued to promote awareness of William's case, through "Where's William". This may have been due to loyalty as a neighbour of FGM. I don't reckon she would have been associated with this effort if she suspected FM or FGM involvement in William's disappearance.

Here you can see her pictured with the ever-present Clare in the background. (August 2015)

William Tyrrell: Volunteers continue the plight to bring him home

WILLIAM Tyrrell's parents have provided a heartfelt thank you to the Kendall community for their unwavering support.

www.camdencourier.com.au

Maybe something happened between 2015 and the inquest for AMS to change her opinion?

 

[js47]

AMS was (at least until mid 2015) part of the local (Kendall) group who continued to promote awareness of William's case, through "Where's William". This may have been due to loyalty as a neighbour of FGM. I don't reckon she would have been associated with this effort if she suspected FM or FGM involvement in William's disappearance.

Here you can see her pictured with the ever-present Clare in the background. (August 2015)

William Tyrrell: Volunteers continue the plight to bring him home

WILLIAM Tyrrell's parents have provided a heartfelt thank you to the Kendall community for their unwavering support.

www.camdencourier.com.au

Maybe something happened between 2015 and the inquest for AMS to change her opinion?

 

[js47]

yes 31550

 

[LRitz]

Agree. It is confusing. I don't know if this is planned confusion about the search between 10:30 and the time the police arrive. Or why stories and narratives changed over time. Maybe police could get them and the neighbours to reenact the morning.

I thought neighbours across the road at 51 said both FM and a man, who they later identified as FF, went together to their driveway to ask about William, before the police arrived. But FF in his walkthrough said he started searching by himself and did not particularly see anyone. He said he searched for a long time( he mentioned how long, was it 60 minute, but I can't recall exact time. Maybe someone else can help). I suppose this could include going across the road to 51, but why omit it. There is no impression that he has a trouble with his memory. Maybe his search did not happen quite like he reported. And when the police arrive, which was about 35 - 40 minutes after FF had arrived back, he was not searching but is in the house.

FGM said FM went down the side of the house to the road looking for William. FGM says when she followed FM she could see FM speaking to neighbour AM. Did this neighbour see FF return in his car? FGM then walked back the same way to the back yard. As I said before, why not walk to the front of the house and the driveway to see if William had circled the house - he could have been looking for his bike, or have by the, been back inside the house but no one seems to look inside the house. And everything after this point is a blur for FGM.

My mistake.
FGM starts to say she saw FM but then changes and corrects herself and says she saw neighbour AMS not FM. From what i could hear FGM says something like this (my transcript) .".. I could see FM coming back. No. No. I didn't see FM. I saw Anne Maree this lady lives there….".
Its a bit hard to catch everything with the added bleeps. FGM then goes on to say she (i.e. FGM) was taking to AMS.
FGM says everything was "deathly quiet" when she went to follow FM. Why wouldn't she have heard FM calling out for William, even if she could not see FM.
FM statement does not mention AMS when she starts to look for William towards the road. FM says she saw AMS after FF returned. So what did FGM and AMS told about. Very confusing. They did not get this part of the story straight between them.
FGM is so confused that at one point has to ask the police interviewer "Which way would I have gone? "

One other very small point is that FGM is asked can she remember what she did at the house after she walked back up from the street. FGM answer ".....No It was a blur. I'm sorry. It was a blur..."
FM statement 23: " ...... I spoke to a police officer called Chris……..I ran back up and talked to him the rest is a blur”.
Just a coincidence as blur is a common word.

 

[LRitz]

My guess at a timeline:

• 9:37 - last photo
• ? - the rolling dice game
• ? - William jumps onto the grass, running to and from the little lawn around the corner
• ? - FM makes tea and takes it to the patio
• ? - William's sister is drawing; FGM and FM start their teas
• ? - FM realises she hasn't heard William for a while, goes to look
• ? - FM looks around the yard, through the house, gets the keys to her mum's car from the kitchen and drives to wherever and back
• 10:30 - FM returns to house, sees the text on her phone, and with William's sister (who was presumably still on the patio?) gets to the driveway in time to meet FF as he drives in
• 10:35 - FM takes FF around past the patio (where FGM is still sitting?) and shows him where William was last seen
• 10:40 - FF takes off running around No.52, and FM goes down the hill to Benaroon Drive where she meets Anne-Maree (and Anne-Maree hears FF calling William in his search up the hill); they walk along the road looking into driveways and maybe down as far as the bus stop (scene of the supposed scream from reeds)
• 10:45 - FGM and William's sister leave the patio and go down the hill looking for FM
• ? - FGM (talking to Anne-Maree?) sees FM walking back (from searching Ellendale Crescent?) and they go back to the house
• 10:50 - Anne-Maree alerts Paul at No.43; Paul (and maybe Anne-Maree?) go up to the house
• 10:56 - FM calls police
• ? - FF runs back to the house, FGM thinks he's just arrived home
• 11:06 - first police officer arrives, finding FM back down on Benaroon Drive; FGM lets him into the house, and FF is in the bathroom.

My time line

• ?
• Photo roaring like a Lion
• ?
• FM calls police at 10:56

 

[LRitz]

Yeah that seems to have been just a fishing exercise.

An expensive fishing exercise with all the police personnel and equipment searching that area. Just saying, All very confusing.

 

[31550]

An expensive fishing exercise with all the police personnel and equipment searching that area. Just saying, All very confusing.

Just to clarify, I was referring only to the comment about "something being thrown out of a car window", as a possible fishing exercise, not the whole 'Big Dig' operation.

 

[31550]

My mistake.
FGM starts to say she saw FM but then changes and corrects herself and says she saw neighbour AMS not FM. From what i could hear FGM says something like this (my transcript) .".. I could see FM coming back. No. No. I didn't see FM. I saw Anne Maree this lady lives there….".
Its a bit hard to catch everything with the added bleeps. FGM then goes on to say she (i.e. FGM) was taking to AMS.
FGM says everything was "deathly quiet" when she went to follow FM. Why wouldn't she have heard FM calling out for William, even if she could not see FM.
FM statement does not mention AMS when she starts to look for William towards the road. FM says she saw AMS after FF returned. So what did FGM and AMS told about. Very confusing. They did not get this part of the story straight between them.
FGM is so confused that at one point has to ask the police interviewer "Which way would I have gone? "

One other very small point is that FGM is asked can she remember what she did at the house after she walked back up from the street. FGM answer ".....No It was a blur. I'm sorry. It was a blur..."
FM statement 23: " ...... I spoke to a police officer called Chris……..I ran back up and talked to him the rest is a blur”.
Just a coincidence as blur is a common word.

There are some differences between the video walkthrough and the FGM statement presented to the coronial inquest.
I don't have a transcript of the latter, but it's reported in:

One of the last people to see William Tyrrell alive finally speaks

When William Tyrrell's foster grandmother was asked who would want to harm the little boy, she could only suggest one person - a man who lived across the road.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The statement was tendered to the inquest on March 25 and released on Tuesday following an application to the Coroner's Court by Daily Mail Australia. ​

​

The foster gran, whose home William disappeared from on September 12, 2014, told police her other theory was that the boy may have walked down a nearby highway with 'lots of traffic moving back and forth'. ​

​

The woman, who was 81 at the time of William's disappearance, described the him as 'full of beans ... jumping out of his skin with energy' that morning.​

​

'William was dressed in his "Spiderman" costume ... While he was playing out the back patio he started roaring like a tiger and told us he was the "daddy tiger". ​

​

She said her daughter took the famous last photos of William on her balcony and had been contemplating feeding him morning tea, and supposed it was about 10.30am.​

​

'William lost interest in drawing pictures and rolling dice and he ran down the two small stairs of the back patio, onto the grass and he ran around the right hand side of the house (to the front). ​

​

'That is the last time I saw William.'​

​

'About five minutes had passed and the female foster carer said: ''Mum, he's a little bit quiet' and she walked off the back patio in the direction of where we'd last seen William.'​

​

She next saw the foster carer standing out the front of the house speaking to a neighbour and calling out William's name. ​

​

'The female foster carer walked back to the house and told me she was calling the because she couldn't find William.​

​

'The female foster carer called the police (and the male foster carer as well). I think the male foster carer arrived home before the police but I'm not entirely sure.​

​

'The police didn't take long to get there and I remember the officer saying he wasn't far away when the call came in.' ​

​

She recalled how the foster carers had travelled up as she was in the process of selling her house as she needed something smaller.​

​

She said William's foster parents were concerned 'that I was going to do the wrong thing, so they decided to come up to Kendall'.​

​

Investigators have ruled out William's biological and foster parents having any involvement in his disapperaance. ​

​

The coronial inquest previously heard evidence from both his biological and foster parents in an effort to piece together the events surrounding his disappearance. ​

Here, FGM says she saw FM talking to the neighbour. FGM doesn't say she (FGM) spoke to the neighbour at all. She says FM then walked back and called the police and FF. FGM doesn't know if FF arrived before the police or not, so that means FGM did not see FF when he returned at 10:30 as she says he did in her walkthrough. She also thinks the photos were around 10:30, so her timeline is definitely off in the Inquest statement.

 

[31550]

FGM video walkthrough (my transcription):

When I got down to the road I could see [FM] coming back.
- OK
No, I didn't see [FM]. I saw Anne-Marie, this lady who lives there.
- With the timber paling fence?
Yes, yes, when I was down there talking to her, [FM] came back. [Wms sister] must have been with me. I really don't know.
- OK, and ... you looked around?
It was absolutely deathly quiet.
-OK
Still, nothing. ... and then, ah, I'm down on the road ...
- When you, when you were on the road, do remember seeing any cars, on the road?
No, no, nothing.
- Do you remember seeing any people?
Not at that time. No. No.
- OK
Yeah.... Uhh, a couple did come by after all this had happened and after she'd called the police I don't know if they're ... ,
a car was an the road. An elderly couple. And I said to them 'Have you seen this little boy?' and they said 'No'. But this was some time after all this had happened.
Roughly how long after do you think that would have been?
- Uhhh, that might have been ten minutes because I was down on the road talking to Anne-Marie, and then [FM} came up very distraught and said "I've gotta call the police".
OK, so [FM] came up. You decided to call the police. What, and then, you ...
< interrupting > Oh and then, when I think [FF?]. Oh when did he... ? I think I was walking up, and [FF] arrived, and he was distraught as well .
OK
Uhh how he knew at that stage I'm not too sure. He'd tell you that. I'm not too sure. And then he started running around. Everybody was running around.
...

I don't know. FGM says she first saw FM coming up when she was talking to AMS. Then she says she saw the elderly couple 10 minutes after calling the police, and then she sees FM coming up again saying she needs to call the police!
So the sequence of events is unreliable.

But she does say FF arrived while she (FGM) was walking back up, and somehow he was already distraught. And even though FM said "I have to call the police" she did not do so for another 25 minutes or so.

PS: IF FGM was down on the road the whole time, how did she not see FF return in his car to her house? How come she never mentions FM's drive in her car?

 

[Awakening]

AMS strikes me as a straight shooter. I believe she would have contacted police about her concerns.

 

[LRitz]

There are some differences between the video walkthrough and the FGM statement presented to the coronial inquest.
I don't have a transcript of the latter, but it's reported in:.....

Here, FGM says she saw FM talking to the neighbour. FGM doesn't say she (FGM) spoke to the neighbour at all. She says FM then walked back and called the police and FF. FGM doesn't know if FF arrived before the police or not, so that means FGM did not see FF when he returned at 10:30 as she says he did in her walkthrough. She also thinks the photos were around 10:30, so her timeline is definitely off in the Inquest statement.

Agree. But more than just some differences. The differences make it impossible to get a clear picture of what happened. I could not get an idea of how long it took FGM to follow FM. FM says she went to the road and then came back up the other side of the house. FM does not say at this time she went further along Benaroon, and does not mentions AMS. FM could have been pretty quick to run to the road, call for William, look up and down the road and then run around the other side of house, drive port area, and into the house where she picks up her phone. So how did FGM see FM coming back from where? And FM must have seen AMS, but in FM statement she does not ask AMS until much later if she has seen William. Clear as ...

FGM video walkthrough (my transcription):

When I got down to the road I could see [FM] coming back.
- OK
No, I didn't see [FM]. I saw Anne-Marie, this lady who lives there.
- With the timber paling fence?
Yes, yes, when I was down there talking to her, [FM] came back. [Wms sister] must have been with me. I really don't know.
- OK, and ... you looked around?
It was absolutely deathly quiet.
-OK
Still, nothing. ... and then, ah, I'm down on the road ...
- When you, when you were on the road, do remember seeing any cars, on the road?
No, no, nothing.
- Do you remember seeing any people?
Not at that time. No. No.
- OK
Yeah.... Uhh, a couple did come by after all this had happened and after she'd called the police I don't know if they're ... ,
a car was an the road. An elderly couple. And I said to them 'Have you seen this little boy?' and they said 'No'. But this was some time after all this had happened.
Roughly how long after do you think that would have been?
- Uhhh, that might have been ten minutes because I was down on the road talking to Anne-Marie, and then [FM} came up very distraught and said "I've gotta call the police".
OK, so [FM] came up. You decided to call the police. What, and then, you ...
< interrupting > Oh and then, when I think [FF?]. Oh when did he... ? I think I was walking up, and [FF] arrived, and he was distraught as well .
OK
Uhh how he knew at that stage I'm not too sure. He'd tell you that. I'm not too sure. And then he started running around. Everybody was running around.
...

I don't know. FGM says she first saw FM coming up when she was talking to AMS. Then she says she saw the elderly couple 10 minutes after calling the police, and then she sees FM coming up again saying she needs to call the police!
So the sequence of events is unreliable.

But she does say FF arrived while she (FGM) was walking back up, and somehow he was already distraught. And even though FM said "I have to call the police" she did not do so for another 25 minutes or so.

PS: IF FGM was down on the road the whole time, how did she not see FF return in his car to her house? How come she never mentions FM's drive in her car?

FGM says she could see FM and then corrects herself that she could not see her??
Just a thought does she say that when she is talking to AMS she sees "bleeeeep" coming back that she is saying FF coming back in the car?
Needed more rehearsals.

 

[LRitz]

The time line is off imo, may not be intentional though.

But if giving important information to the police wouldn't you take your time and make a great effort to give correct information. Some of the statements were taken just days after, and the search was still in early days. How could you forget. And its not just differences between different people, even their own statements are not always the same. (FGM statement and video walkthrough).
And even before the photo. Breakfast with William and sister at the table is at 9:00 and takes about 10 to 15 minutes. Or, as FGM says, it is at 8:00 and takes an hour. Not small discrepancies.
So if not intentional then what?

 

[31550]

FGM says she could see FM and then corrects herself that she could not see her??
Just a thought does she say that when she is talking to AMS she sees "bleeeeep" coming back that she is saying FF coming back in the car?
Needed more rehearsals.

The transcription above is as close as I can get. Obviously the bleeped bits in brackets are assumed based on context.
Eyewitness accounts are just unreliable in any case. So many inconsistencies.

 

[LRitz]

The transcription above is as close as I can get. Obviously the bleeped bits in brackets are assumed based on context.
Eyewitness accounts are just unreliable in any case. So many inconsistencies.

But it is a bit more than eyewitnesses. FGM can not recall her own actions. FGM does not just say she saw neighbour AMS, she says she spoke to her. I suppose you could make up a whole conversation, or mix up this time with later in the morning.
Did AMS in her statement say she saw FGM, and if so, was FGM still in her slippers?

 

[31550]

Did AMS in her statement say she saw FGM, and if so, was FGM still in her slippers?

Did she ever make a statement?

 

[Wallace52]

Did she ever make a statement?

Oh she would have by now.

 

[Wallace52]

So why doesn’t AMS go to the Police / Strike Force (/ even the coroner) & state what she believes to be the Truth ?

What real use is shaking her head … I’ve got no time for people who are full of ‘side comments’, but aren’t prepared to Own them

I trust the strike force that they’ve left no stone unturned. I think they’ve got their ducks in a row.


IMO.