Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[Wallace52]

Sorry did I miss something? What brief? What Crown case? What charge(s) are we talking about?

Police inquiries into whether the foster mother was involved in William's disappearance have been paused until an inquest into his suspected death resumes.

Investigators had provided a brief for prosecutors to consider potential charges against the woman, who they believed might have disposed of William's body after his accidental death.



https://au.news.yahoo.com/acquittal-william-tyrrell-foster-mum-010846576.html

This article is dated 26 June, 2024.

 

[Wallace52]

Good point. Because I think they weren’t on speaking terms when they left or am I wrong? WHY?
FGM was a reporter so she would be INTO DETAILS and in her walk through she was ashamed the beds were not made. It appears to me she liked every thing in its place like maybe what actually did happen that day and she was not going to change it even for her daughter.

IMO the FM might have been a bit disappointed about the FGM walkthrough interview.

Foster granny was going really strong with the scrambled eggs narrative and got way off track with William “bouncing out of his skull”. She started out strong, then really messed up the narrative.

 

[31550]

Police inquiries into whether the foster mother was involved in William's disappearance have been paused until an inquest into his suspected death resumes.

Investigators had provided a brief for prosecutors to consider potential charges against the woman, who they believed might have disposed of William's body after his accidental death.



https://au.news.yahoo.com/acquittal-william-tyrrell-foster-mum-010846576.html

This article is dated 26 June, 2024.

All good Wallace52. "Potential" charges. There are no actual charges yet.

Investigators had provided a brief for prosecutors to CONSIDER POTENTIAL charges against the woman, who they BELIEVED MIGHT have

There's a lot of indefinite language in that statement.

 

[31550]

But it is a bit more than eyewitnesses. FGM can not recall her own actions. FGM does not just say she saw neighbour AMS, she says she spoke to her. I suppose you could make up a whole conversation, or mix up this time with later in the morning.
Did AMS in her statement say she saw FGM, and if so, was FGM still in her slippers?

Just back to AMS for a second - she is an important witness as the closest and first 'independent' witness (not directly associated with the fosters) on the scene. So, her testimony is critical IMO.

Do people think that Overington and Chumley spoke directly to AMS and got her version of events before writing their books, or did they only go by what they were told by the fosters and police?

According to the books, AMS was the first person engaged with by FM. She was having her usual smoke outside the front of her property when FM came over, looking for William. After a brief encounter, AMS sent FM down to the bus shelter to look for William.

Then, according to FGM walkthrough, FGM spoke to AMS, who (I assume) was still out on Benaroon Drive (alone) - FGM says she didn't initially see FM, but spoke to AMS, and then after some time FM came back up Benaroon 'distraught' and said, "I have to call the police". Then FGM walked back up to the rear of her house when she encountered FF who 'already knew' and began running around - so this must have been just after 10:30.

Working backwards, FM would need 10 minutes to walk 300 metres each way to the bus shelter and back - so she must have spoken to AMS before 10:20. If William was gone for '5 minutes' before she looked, this puts him jumping off the verandah before 10:15. Tea was made before this. Dice rolling was before this. So, there was really very little time to get in FGMs car and drive to the riding school and back after the photograph at 9:37.

 

[LRitz]

re: "... William had his special orange juice. (FM also says William had orange juice)."

LRitz, I think you might have mentioned orange juice a few times recently? (Sorry if it was someone else.)

What's the significance, or what are you talking about? Thanks.

I think these would be the statements you're referring to, but maybe there are others?

From FM's witness statement on 14 Sep 2014 (see post 397), from paragraph 15:

[FM] "We had a late breaky around 8.30am. William and toast, eggs and weatbix. William also had some orange juice. [The MFC] had some toast with us and he was getting ready for his meeting. Mum also head breaky with us."

From FGM's walk-through, 18 Sep 2014 (see post 7,014 or go direct to Google Drive; transcript by me):

FGM: We sat there at the table, had breakfast. (Bleeped; FM?) cooked scrambled eggs, we all had scrambled eggs, orange juice...

Detective: Yep.

FGM: ... toast...

Breakfast is confusing. And this is before the stress of William missing. As discussed many times before, FGM says she has breakfast with kids around 8:00 after FF leaves, and she does not have breakfast with FF. But FM said they were all there at about 8:30 starting to have breakfast (Mum also had breaky with us."), and FF leaves around 9:00.

So my comment is that they have different stories. Maybe no one is taking much notice of the exact time you start breakfast but you would know/remember who was there IMO, or maybe not.

So police may have asked what everyone ate, or specifically what William ate, we are not to know, and I guess these prompts from the police are not recorded in the statements. So possible that both FGM and FM were asked what William ate. There are inconsistencies between stories with some of the important facts, and I am not sure why, but I found it interesting that they both make mention of the orange juice. The orange juice would not have much impact on William that morning or when or how he disappeared and to me is unimportant. But there it is, in FGM walkthrough and FM statement. Hope that explains it.

 

[LRitz]

IMO the FM would have been very dirty about the FGM walkthrough interview.

Foster granny was going really strong with the scrambled eggs narrative and got way off track with William “bouncing out of his skull”. She really messed up the FM narrative.

When would Foster family have been able to see all the walkthrough or statements, and of other witnesses,?
Maybe FGM kept the "skull"reference quiet for a while.

 

[LRitz]

Well that’s always the danger when one appeals. Sometimes the result is worse than the original result.

IMO

Could this mean a revision of charges, acquittal, and more severe sentencing?l

 

[CodyRose]

Breakfast is confusing. And this is before the stress of William missing. As discussed many times before, FGM says she has breakfast with kids around 8:00 after FF leaves, and she does not have breakfast with FF. But FM said they were all there at about 8:30 starting to have breakfast (Mum also had breaky with us."), and FF leaves around 9:00.

So my comment is that they have different stories. Maybe no one is taking much notice of the exact time you start breakfast but you would know/remember who was there IMO, or maybe not.

So police may have asked what everyone ate, or specifically what William ate, we are not to know, and I guess these prompts from the police are not recorded in the statements. So possible that both FGM and FM were asked what William ate. There are inconsistencies between stories with some of the important facts, and I am not sure why, but I found it interesting that they both make mention of the orange juice. The orange juice would not have much impact on William that morning or when or how he disappeared and to me is unimportant. But there it is, in FGM walkthrough and FM statement. Hope that explains it.

Juice might have made him
More

Breakfast is confusing. And this is before the stress of William missing. As discussed many times before, FGM says she has breakfast with kids around 8:00 after FF leaves, and she does not have breakfast with FF. But FM said they were all there at about 8:30 starting to have breakfast (Mum also had breaky with us."), and FF leaves around 9:00.

So my comment is that they have different stories. Maybe no one is taking much notice of the exact time you start breakfast but you would know/remember who was there IMO, or maybe not.

So police may have asked what everyone ate, or specifically what William ate, we are not to know, and I guess these prompts from the police are not recorded in the statements. So possible that both FGM and FM were asked what William ate. There are inconsistencies between stories with some of the important facts, and I am not sure why, but I found it interesting that they both make mention of the orange juice. The orange juice would not have much impact on William that morning or when or how he disappeared and to me is unimportant. But there it is, in FGM walkthrough and FM statement. Hope that explains it.

Juice full of sugar might have made William even more active, maybe he didn’t usually have juice

 

[Wallace52]

All good Wallace52. "Potential" charges. There are no actual charges yet.

Investigators had provided a brief for prosecutors to CONSIDER POTENTIAL charges against the woman, who they BELIEVED MIGHT have

There's a lot of indefinite language in that statement.

Yeah, I know.

 

[Wallace52]

Could this mean a revision of charges, acquittal, and more severe sentencing?l

Say if one goes down for 6 counts of stalk / intimidate instead of one, then that’s a bit of an issue isn’t it… I mean, that’s not an improvement on one’s situation.

 

[31550]

Say if one goes down for 6 counts of stalk / intimidate instead of one, then that’s a bit of an issue isn’t it… I mean, that’s not an improvement on one’s situation.

That would not be a consequence of the defendant appeal, but it may be an outcome sought by a Crown appeal.

 

[Wallace52]

Just back to AMS for a second - she is an important witness as the closest and first 'independent' witness (not directly associated with the fosters) on the scene. So, her testimony is critical IMO.

Exactly!!! It’s critical. 31550

Do people think that Overington and Chumley spoke directly to AMS and got her version of events before writing their books, or did they only go by what they were told by the fosters and police?

I feel like Overington might have spoken to AMS but I am not sure.

According to the books, AMS was the first person engaged with by FM. She was having her usual smoke outside the front of her property when FM came over, looking for William. After a brief encounter, AMS sent FM down to the bus shelter to look for William.

 

[Wallace52]

When would Foster family have been able to see all the walkthrough or statements, and of other witnesses,?

Maybe Jubes let her have a look, when he was in the job.

Who knows?
Maybe she first saw it at the Coronial Inquest?

 

[Wallace52]

That would not be a consequence of the defendant appeal, but it may be an outcome sought by a Crown appeal.

Thats right but if they had just accepted their consequences for their crimes, the Crown wouldn’t be counter-appealing. IMO.

 

[js47]

CO’s large print (all I could borrow)page 31 …ms Sharpley told Fm Wm. May have gone to the bus stop “I’ll go and look there’ on page 32 Wm.’s FM ran to long grass etc. … then after this she turned and went back for the car keys and drove towards Kendall. On returning she read the mobile message about back in 5 and to send kids out. She went to drive and met FF.
She must have almost been followed up the road by FF. The time difference would have been her running inside for the phone.
IMO BREAKFAST: fgm starts breakfast at 8 the place is like a zoo. Kids fighting FF and FM talking both irritable. she will look after kids orders them to table helps put food on table she remembers what she did FGM remembers everything as she is into detail. Kids noisey FM grabbing bits FGM doing the ‘fantasy high breakfast’ FD going in and out by front door so FGM doesn’t see him . Just my view.

 

[js47]

IMO CO started off with time frames and order of events but like every one got bogged down with FP’s BLOCKS of information and when they chose to release them.
I read this as a fiction/non fiction type of book.
It is hard to judge if she spoke to them.
Does any one know?

 

[31550]

Thats right but if they had just accepted their consequences for their crimes, the Crown wouldn’t be counter-appealing. IMO.

I don't believe it's a 'counter-appeal'. Crown is considering appealing the non-guilty verdict(s) and possibly the leniency of the sentence(s) I think. They would have considered this whether the defence appealed or not. IMO

 

[Wallace52]

I don't believe it's a 'counter-appeal'. Crown is considering appealing the non-guilty verdict(s) and possibly the leniency of the sentence(s) I think. They would have considered this whether the defence appealed or not. IMO

You’re probably right!

 

[js47]

If CO is right in her book. I interpret the information as FM drove to where ever just before FF arrived home so Wm. Had not been missing for 5 minutes he had been missing for a long time and if FGM had finished speaking to CS and returned to the patio this would back that up. If you look at running up and down street searching house looking in reeds running up hill to get keys telling mother she was going driving getting back for FF to arrive it would have to add up to at least half an hour.

 

[31550]

If CO is right in her book. I interpret the information as FM drove to where ever just before FF arrived home so Wm. Had not been missing for 5 minutes he had been missing for a long time and if FGM had finished speaking to CS and returned to the patio this would back that up. If you look at running up and down street searching house looking in reeds running up hill to get keys telling mother she was going driving getting back for FF to arrive it would have to add up to at least half an hour.

Then how come FGM did not notice FM drive past her and AMS in FGMs car while they were talking? FGM never mentions this, nor does AMS but FM would have needed to walk past them both, then drive past them twice. Unless the drive was well before FGM left the verandah, or after FF came home.

 

[js47]

Then how come FGM did not notice FM drive past her and AMS in FGMs car while they were talking? FGM never mentions this, nor does AMS but FM would have needed to walk past them both, then drive past them twice. Unless the drive was well before FGM left the verandah, or after FF came home.

It appears CO did not interview the FP. I will go over it again.

 

[stormbird]

When FM and FGM said William had been gone for five minutes I think they might have been talking about the length of time between when they last heard/saw him and when they first noticed he was gone. If so, "five minutes" is an estimate of how long William had been missing before they started searching.

From Searching for Spiderman, 2020, p.82:

"At 10.34 when [FF] returned, William must have been gone for at least fifteen minutes, to fit in all of [FM's] searching activity. Police estimated William might have rounded the corner of the house for the last time at around 10.10 am." ...

p.83
"In 2018, [FM] told detectives she had some doubts about her recall of the timing of her last sighting of little William.
'I have thought so hard over the years as to how long it was between the roar and me walking around the corner to check on William and I just don't know. At the time, it only felt like about five minutes, but now I think about it, I know that I was relaxed at my mother's house - thinking the area is so secluded - so I wasn't focusing my undivided attention on William. I feel like it possibly could have been more like fifteen minutes after the roar that I went to look for him.'"

And from the inquest (I don't know when), Gerard Craddock, counsel assisting the coroner, in an audio recording:

"Now, the timing will be the focus of attention with respect to the evidence of events that morning. The female foster carer's initial statements - for example, to the male foster carer in the moments after his return to Nanna's - were that [William] was only out of sight and without audible tiger roaring for about five minutes. Later, in what you might think was a very reasonable way, she thought 'Well, we're here at Mum's, we're relaxed, it's a perfectly safe place - perhaps it was longer, maybe it was as long as fifteen or twenty minutes.'
It will ultimately be a matter for Your Honour to determine. However, on close examination of the matter it seems to us that the immediate reaction of about five minutes actually seems to be about right, seems to fit the facts."

- from Nowhere Child, "Love and Loss", 02 August 2019, from 37:55 minutes on Listen Notes (transcript by me)

 

[js47]

Then how come FGM did not notice FM drive past her and AMS in FGMs car while they were talking? FGM never mentions this, nor does AMS but FM would have needed to walk past them both, then drive past them twice. Unless the drive was well before FGM left the verandah, or after FF came home.

There isn’t any mention of FGM. I will see if I can get another copy. This book may have been changed. This copy is 2020.
It seems to me she meant it was FM’s first contact with AMS.
AMS said she would look at bus stop
FM goes to long grass and scream
FM goes for drive (she would have to get the keys)
FM returns to find FF on way home.
you are right she would have driven past AMS twice.
If she ran to get the keys that maybe is why FGM went down to speak to AMS?

 

[js47]

Ok! Thank you Stormbird. Thank you all.

 

[js47]

I wonder how FM would feel if the child care people did not give undivided attention to William for 15 to 20 minutes if they could not see him. He was only 3. You can never relax with a child that young.