Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[LRitz]

I wouldn’t have thought the former foster parents of William Tyrrell were capable of stalking / intimidating a child who was in their care, but there you are. Both guilty. (We know of course, that child was not William).

I wouldn’t have thought the foster mother would have been capable of assaulting a child, but she has.
She seemed really nice and caring in her media interviews.
You don’t really know what people are capable of, and neither do I, and that’s the issue I guess.

"You don’t really know what people are capable of, and neither do I, and that’s the issue I guess."

People you don't know, maybe have seen them on an interview, but then that's a public face. So totally agree that you can not know. But when the stories vary, and do not seem to fit the evidence, memory blanks and blurs, confabulations, and coincidences that keep stacking up. There comes a tipping point where other possibilities need to be (at least) considered.IMO

 

[Wallace52]

There comes a tipping point where other possibilities need to be (at least) considered.IMO

Yes, and I think that tipping point came when the police obtained a warrant to bug the foster parents’ home, and the rest is history.

 

[31550]

Yes, and I think that tipping point came when the police obtained a warrant to bug the foster parents’ home, and the rest is history.

That's an interesting point because under the relevant legislation, I believe police normally need to present evidence that a 'serious crime' has been committed before permission is given for covert electronic surveillance (E.g. listening devices or phone taps).
But the aspect of 'public interest' would also come into play, with a $1M reward about to be offered. It could be argued that surveillance was necessary as a matter of transparency and public accountability.
This may have been the 'tipping point' for the electronic surveillance to be installed, rather than any actual evidence implicating the fosters in Williams disappearance.

 

[Wallace52]

That's an interesting point because under the relevant legislation, I believe police normally need to present evidence that a 'serious crime' has been committed before permission is given for covert electronic surveillance (E.g. listening devices or phone taps).
But the aspect of 'public interest' would also come into play, with a $1M reward about to be offered. It could be argued that surveillance was necessary as a matter of transparency and public accountability.
This may have been the 'tipping point' for the electronic surveillance to be installed, rather than any actual evidence implicating the fosters in Williams disappearance.

I don’t know how they got the warrant.

What evidence did they have? What’s the threshold for a warrant for surveillance?

Jubes already did the due diligence for the $1Mil in 2016 when he separated and interviewed the fosters and bugged their car for the trip home. Didn’t he?

IMO

 

[31550]

I don’t know how they got the warrant.

What evidence did they have? What’s the threshold for a warrant for surveillance?

Jubes already did the due diligence for the $1Mil in 2016 when he separated and interviewed the fosters and bugged their car for the trip home. Didn’t he?

IMO

The car bugging (Sep 2016) may just have been a one-off, separate to the later surveillance, which culminated in the NSWCC getting involved in 2021. Jubelin could have easily got approval for this; it's not the same as a telephone tap.

I think the 2021 surveillance coincided with the 'change of direction' in SFR tactics at the time ('no stone unturned').
In any case, 2021 or even 2016 was way too late for electronic surveillance to reveal anything useful. It needed to be in place from Day 1.

 

[Wallace52]

The car bugging (Sep 2016) may just have been a one-off, separate to the later surveillance, which culminated in the NSWCC getting involved in 2021. Jubelin could have easily got approval for this; it's not the same as a telephone tap.

I think the 2021 surveillance coincided with the 'change of direction' in SFR tactics at the time ('no stone unturned').

Oh, definitely. I agree with all of that.

In any case, 2021 or even 2016 was way too late for electronic surveillance to reveal anything useful. It needed to be in place from Day 1.

I agree. But maybe law enforcement thought that the couple would discuss the disappearance of William and it would be captured on the new surveillance tapes, and the strike force might have found that useful in terms of looking at solving the case.

But in my opinion there were some obvious flaws to this plan: And I think that, especially considering the foster parents had already been bugged in 2016 during the car trip home from Parramatta police station, they certainly would have been aware that they would potentially be bugged at some point in the future.

It wasn’t really an “original” move by police when they bugged the former foster parents’ homes, devices and cars in 2020 - 2021, as they had done it before, as we have discussed (albeit on a much smaller scale!) and you could tell even before the inquest began, around July 2019, the foster mother demonstrates clear signs of stress when being interviewed for the “Where’s William?” Podcast: Episode title ‘Breaking Point.’



This episode was released by 10 Network on 25 July, 2019.

At that point when I listen to her on the podcast, she really seems to me to be hyper-aware of both SFR and NSWPOL in general. IMO. It might have crossed her mind that the police were starting to move in a new direction.

I wonder if she could have predicted they would be bugged once more?

Another flaw of the surveillance plan is there would be restrictions around which rooms could be bugged. Could the marital bedroom be bugged? Maybe not. Could the shower be bugged? Maybe not.

What if the foster parents were very disciplined and went for a walk each day without their devices where they could freely discuss the case?

What if the foster parents regularly went on small vacations where they could leave their devices in the car and lodge in premises that were not bugged?

And then the last possibility, is, what if the foster parents had no idea what happened to William and this was reflected on the surveillance transcripts and recordings?

 

[31550]

What if the foster parents were very disciplined and went for a walk each day without their devices where they could freely discuss the case?

What if the foster parents regularly went on small vacations where they could leave their devices in the car and lodge in premises that were not bugged?

And then the last possibility, is, what if the foster parents had no idea what happened to William and this was reflected on the surveillance transcripts and recordings?

Whatever the case, I would imagine the scene was set very early on and it was either agreed, or unilaterally decided that the details and circumstances of William's disappearance were never to be discussed.

So either:

• Nobody Knew and at some point they agreed not to discuss further OR
• Only one person knew and the other people believed in and adopted the narrative OR
• One person knew and the others eventually agreed not to question or challenge the narrative OR
• More than one person knew and they all agreed not to discuss any further once a narrative was agreed.

 

[Wallace52]

Nobody Knew and at some point they agreed not to discuss further OR

I wonder if they spoke about William at all during that circa 14 month surveillance op?

Magistrate McIntyre said she listened to or read the entire thing. Didn’t she?

 

[31550]

I wonder if they spoke about William at all during that circa 14 month surveillance op?

Magistrate McIntyre said she listened to or read the entire thing. Didn’t she?

She said she listened to 'hours of recordings', and I would assume she listened to all the recordings which formed the brief - possibly not all the recordings which were made, but all those deemed relevant by the Prosecution, or requested by the defence.
But all this surveillance was several years after William went missing, so it's unlikely there were many (if any) conversations about him.
And the surveillance would not have been in every room, nor would it have been monitored 24/7.

 

[Wallace52]

She said she listened to 'hours of recordings', and I would assume she listened to all the recordings which formed the brief - possibly not all the recordings which were made, but all those deemed relevant by the Prosecution, or requested by the defence.

Yes I wonder if Magistrate M was only given portions or excerpts of recordings that related to the cases in front of her (stalk/intimidate and assault cases of a child that was not William).

Imo

 

[LRitz]

IMO, William in the last photo does not look happy, full of energy, and well three year old. IMO, he looks stressed and has circles under his eyes as if he has been unwell or tired. The B mother said he looked thin. Any ideas?

Edit: Would the light reflection in his eyes ("catchlight") have come from natural light that day? There was a long discussion previously on bigfooty forum on what direction the patio was facing and where the sun would have been. Was there any consensus?

 

[31550]

IMO, William in the last photo does not look happy, full of energy, and well three year old. IMO, he looks stressed and has circles under his eyes as if he has been unwell or tired. The B mother said he looked thin. Any ideas?

Edit: Would the light reflection in his eyes ("catchlight") have come from natural light that day? There was a long discussion previously on bigfooty forum on what direction the patio was facing and where the sun would have been. Was there any consensus?

Agree he does look tired in the photos. But that's not surprising - he slept in a strange bed, away from home, probably had a late night and early morning. 3YOs can get run down quickly for many reasons - and William would have been under more than a usual amount of stress for a 3YO - they also bounce back pretty quickly.

Re the photos, we discussed them here at length and I think it's fair to say a consensus was never reached. However I would say that the photos and camera have been in the possession of forensic law enforcement experts for nine years, examined several times, and if anything incriminating had been detected, I'm pretty sure we would have heard by now from an official law enforcement source.

 

[LRitz]

Agree he does look tired in the photos. But that's not surprising - he slept in a strange bed, away from home, probably had a late night and early morning. 3YOs can get run down quickly for many reasons - and William would have been under more than a usual amount of stress for a 3YO - they also bounce back pretty quickly.

Re the photos, we discussed them here at length and I think it's fair to say a consensus was never reached. However I would say that the photos and camera have been in the possession of forensic law enforcement experts for nine years, examined several times, and if anything incriminating had been detected, I'm pretty sure we would have heard by now from an official law enforcement source.

One nights poor sleep, maybe. But they reported waking early and playing and everybody happy. Looking underweight would not have happened overnight.
This is a link to a clearer photo. You can see the catchlight reflection much better than in my attachment. Where did that light come from?

Confusion over time famous last photo of William Tyrrell was taken

An investigation has been launched into the last known photograph of missing boy William Tyrrell, following...

www.9news.com.au

"forensic law enforcement experts" etc .... Haven't found William yet.

 

[31550]

"forensic law enforcement experts" etc .... Haven't found William yet.

Yeah they don't have William, but they do have the camera and all the photos. So they have had physical evidence to work with for nine years, spanning several lead investigators, and the coronial inquest, and significant public and media scrutiny. I believe if this physical forensic evidence had revealed anything significant which was incriminating or even unexplained, then we would have heard about it by now.

Here is a better, clearer, uncropped photo (From one of the early smh articles)

 

[js47]

Is William really roaring, or is William showing someone he has nothing in his mouth?

 

[js47]

Why did FF let William play with his phone if he had business call to make?
Could the FP have phones in the kids names?

 

[Wallace52]

Why did FF let William play with his phone if he had business call to make?
Could the FP have phones in the kids names?

No. He had multiple phones in his own name. Which he denied.

 

[LRitz]

Agree he does look tired in the photos. But that's not surprising - he slept in a strange bed, away from home, probably had a late night and early morning. 3YOs can get run down quickly for many reasons - and William would have been under more than a usual amount of stress for a 3YO - they also bounce back pretty quickly.

Looking at the photo again I think it is more than can be explained away by just one night of poor sleep IMO.
He looks thin, IMO, and B Mother thought he had lost weight (some weeks before) so not just overnight . Why?
Why would he have been under stress that morning?

 

[Wallace52]

Why did FF let William play with his phone if he had business call to make?
Could the FP have phones in the kids names?

The Fireman Sam (or was it Bananas in Pyjamas?) video may have been pre-purchased or pre-downloaded.

In any case, afaik, it hasn’t been independently established that there was a video watched. It’s just what the FF said. It hasn’t been forensically reviewed.

His business meeting was scheduled for a particular time and was accessed via a program called “Go To Meeting”. It wasn’t a simple phone call.

IMO

 

[Wallace52]

Credit: Miklos Bolza for Yahoo.com

“The Crown had filed an application for an extension of time to consider its own appeal of the woman's acquittal on the intimidation charges, a prosecutor told Sydney's Downing Centre District Court on Tuesday.

However, a final decision about whether an appeal would be brought has not been made.

The matters have been adjourned until July 16, when a hearing date will be set down.”


https://au.news.yahoo.com/acquittal-william-tyrrell-foster-mum-010846576.html


I wonder what will come of the court mention regarding that appeal case today?

 

[31550]

Credit: Miklos Bolza for Yahoo.com

“The Crown had filed an application for an extension of time to consider its own appeal of the woman's acquittal on the intimidation charges, a prosecutor told Sydney's Downing Centre District Court on Tuesday.

However, a final decision about whether an appeal would be brought has not been made.

The matters have been adjourned until July 16, when a hearing date will be set down.”


https://au.news.yahoo.com/acquittal-william-tyrrell-foster-mum-010846576.html


I wonder what will come of the court mention regarding that appeal case today?

 

[stormbird]

From News.com.au / NewsWire, 16 July 2024:

"In June, the foster parents lodged an appeal against their convictions and the severity of their sentences.

On Tuesday [16 Jul 2024], a lawyer for both parents fronted the NSW District Court to set a date for the appeal hearings. ...

Judge Christopher O’Brien set the foster mother’s appeal hearing down for April 7, 2025. ...

Judge O’Brien set the foster father’s appeal hearing for February 10, 2025."

 

[stormbird]

From Corowa Free Press / AAP, 16 July 2024:

"The foster father is due to face a half-day appeal hearing on February 10, 2025, then the foster mother's legal challenge will span two days commencing on April 7.

The crown prosecutor told the court the mother's appeal would take longer as there were five days of hearings to pore over as well as lengthy telephone intercepts to listen to."

 

[BFew]

I wonder how the urgent NSW Government review of the NSW Foster System is going?

Maybe something from Parliament transcript on 5 July on this (Edit: No).

Protecting children at risk: an assessment of whether the Department of Communities and Justice is meeting its core responsibilities – report tabled in Parliament 5 July - NSW Ombudsman

www.ombo.nsw.gov.au

Protecting children at risk: an assessment of whether the Department of Communities and Justice is meeting its core responsibilities – report tabled in Parliament 5 July​

05 Jul 2024

Full Report (113 pages)

https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/145242/Protecting-children-at-risk-report-2024.pdf

Summary Report (13 pages)

https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/145243/Protecting-children-at-risk-summary-report-2024.pdf

Ombudsman media release

https://www.ombo.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/145239/Media-Release_Protecting-children-at-risk-report_5Jul2024.pdf

'Within the next year the NSW Ombudsman will also be reporting on deeper examinations of particular issues outlined in the report, including:
• an investigation into whether DCJ is meeting its statutory responsibilities to investigate and assess all children reported at ROSH, and
• an inquiry into whether the Intensive Therapeutic Care model is achieving its intended outcomes for children.'

p9 Sunday Telegraph 14th July 2024

 

[31550]

From Corowa Free Press / AAP, 16 July 2024:

"The foster father is due to face a half-day appeal hearing on February 10, 2025, then the foster mother's legal challenge will span two days commencing on April 7.

The crown prosecutor told the court the mother's appeal would take longer as there were five days of hearings to pore over as well as lengthy telephone intercepts to listen to."

What impact will all this have on the timing of the "re-convenement" of the Coronial Inquest? I imagine this cannot now proceed until well into the second half of 2025?