Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following initials to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above initials. No deviations.

 

[LRitz]

Same but different !

MSN

The Federal Government needs to step up & demand that these Depts responsible for the welfare of our people, actually do their job.
This is a systemic problem across all of Australia & I’m not interested in buck-passing. We would have half the DV, Child Abuse & Youth Crime issues if these departments actually focused on what they are meant to be doing, instead of grabbing the $ & feeding the fat cats.
Can you believe as reported above, that no one went to check on those kids ! The eldest was 5 !

We’ve had an NDIS enquiry, let’s have one into this Dept. now.

Agree.

A bit off topic but there is a charity group called "Hope" that support young mothers and parents in difficulty. They focus on support and the parent (often the case is a single Mum) keeping the child. Practical support of health, housing, and education.

 

[LRitz]

That should have sent huge red flags to FACS.
What was FACS response to email?

There were red flags:
Previous actions of locking child out of house for punishment.
Worries of Mother about bruising.
Just weeks before a significant bruise to face (black eye) that was reported to FACS and claimed to be accidental.
Weight loss.
Email from FM about not coping.

All overlooked or maybe just too much hard work to address. Plus now (though retrospective) criminal charges and guilty pleas.

The weight loss cause has not been addressed. It was reported weeks before by the Mother. It would not have happened overnight. WT looks thin in the last photo (IMO). Causes could be illness (but no mention of William being unwell), also could be due to neglect or punishment. 3 year olds still usually are a bit baby chubby (IMO). Kids do grow out of this but closer to school age (IMO).

Didn't the FGM make some comment along the lines that William eats well but never seems to put on weight. Maybe someone has the correct reference. Was she surprised to see William so thin when he arrived, and was trying to cover this up, or make some excuse.

 

[Underarrest_]

It begins with privacy for the children themselves - both William and his sister, and then by extension (supposedly) to their carers - revealing the carer's identity might reveal William's sister's identity, and so on. But the legislation, and its interpretation is not identical in all States and Territories (as I understand it). There are various suppression orders in place, and (because of their very nature) we don't know whose names or what other things are being suppressed, or why. If it wasn't for Alannah Smith's bold actions, we wouldn't even know William was a foster child.
The media tend not to fight the police or government departments too hard over suppression applications because they have a symbiotic relationship.
But IMO it's political correctness gone way too far. Who are we protecting? Not William or the other kids who have been harmed or are at risk, that's for sure.

They could have just put a suppression order on the other children in the family, who’s to know the other child was even a foster child let alone William’s sister.
Anyone who personally knew the FP knew that William was a foster child as FACS still had legal guardianship at this time, ( meaning schools, day cares, after school activities, etc would already know this as everything has to be signed off by FACS.) Even needed permission to take the children to the FGM’s house for a few days.
Totally agree, i can’t see how this was about protecting the children, hence why Alannah Smith went out of her way to make it known.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Let me offer some insights into the whole ways in which parental dysfunction of a difficult child manifest.

The parent never accepts the dysfunction is theirs. They almost always blame the child. Because they don't get the result they want (in terms of compliant behaviour), the discipline choices become increasingly disparate to accepted parental strategies. Things like locking the child "in" eg a toilet, or "out" eg outside. If one parent copes and the other doesn't then reliance is placed on the one that copes...Impossible if they're not there. That could quite possibly involve taking WT away and 'leaving' him for FF to collect. The desperation and exasperation progress to extreme levels.

What my ex did ( she was terribly dysfunctional) with our kids (who weren't really difficult) is she insisted I meet her in a random street and take the child away saying she didn't want them. Massive trauma for the child which adds to non compliance. I suspect a version of this was involved in WT disappearance.

There may have been non compliance and misbehaviour even threats by WT to go find FF and she may have finally relented in anger saying she would take him only to stop part way and let him out of car to 'punish' him. That immediately places him in a place he can be abducted. Explains truncated time to report.. Explains why there was no delay to determine death because he wasn't. Explains cryptic comment from FM to FF about "do you have WT". explains FD comment about where WT went...
" To go find FF". Explains deathbed confession of RP.

 

[js47]

He’s cautious. I think that’s just his personality.

Yes - no Wallace52: that is paranoia

 

[js47]

How long before William’s disappearance did FM contact FACS by email stating “she was close to giving up or giving in?” Her thoughts and her words.

That should have sent huge red flags to FACS.
What was FACS response to email?

FM hand injury? As mentioned previously William used to bite FM. Was a photo ever taken of injury? Was this event, a possible reaction by William to discipline from FM?
Or did William ‘head for the hills ‘in fear of further discipline from FM ? Was William left unattended while FM attended to her wound, and for how long?

That is why I think a child might ride especially if he was good on the bike I know there were times my son said I hate you and rode off on his bike in defiance. If a child was slapped for hurting some one that is what could happen. While the injured person attended to the wound.

 

[31550]

Let me offer some insights into the whole ways in which parental dysfunction of a difficult child manifest.

The parent never accepts the dysfunction is theirs. They almost always blame the child. Because they don't get the result they want (in terms of compliant behaviour), the discipline choices become increasingly disparate to accepted parental strategies. Things like locking the child "in" eg a toilet, or "out" eg outside. If one parent copes and the other doesn't then reliance is placed on the one that copes...Impossible if they're not there. That could quite possibly involve taking WT away and 'leaving' him for FF to collect. The desperation and exasperation progress to extreme levels.

What my ex did ( she was terribly dysfunctional) with our kids (who weren't really difficult) is she insisted I meet her in a random street and take the child away saying she didn't want them. Massive trauma for the child which adds to non compliance. I suspect a version of this was involved in WT disappearance.

There may have been non compliance and misbehaviour even threats by WT to go find FF and she may have finally relented in anger saying she would take him only to stop part way and let him out of car to 'punish' him. That immediately places him in a place he can be abducted. Explains truncated time to report.. Explains why there was no delay to determine death because he wasn't. Explains cryptic comment from FM to FF about "do you have WT". explains FD comment about where WT went...
" To go find FF". Explains deathbed confession of RP.

That all seems quite plausible, except for the 'confession of RP'.
RP's testimony implicates FA. FA, we know, is an experienced opportunist abductor. He has 'rat cunning'. If he took William, he would have acted very quickly, but his location would have been carefully chosen so as to avoid witnesses. If William was abducted by a third party down on Batar Creek Road, it is very close to houses, and a fair amount of traffic passing by. LH returned from her shopping trip around that time of day, and may well have seen something while unloading the car. Other neighbours were coming and going as well.
I think if FA is involved he would be more likely to have taken William from the front yard of FGM house close to Benaroon Drive, where he could have spotted William and grabbed him quickly with no-one seeing. He knew the area, and may have exited via the forest. He had a reason to be at the house - due to his relationship with GO, who was scheduled to repair the FGM deck. So, he may have decided to go there and check it out. As far as I know FA has no witness-supported alibi. But if FA is the culprit, I think he is more likely to be the 'primary', rather than a 'secondary'. If FA happened upon William alone on the road, he would be too wary of being caught or seen (especially with his prior record).
I think if there is a 'secondary' offender, or someone who may have intercepted William on Batar Creek Road, it is more likely to be a local driving around, perhaps even hooning, perhaps like the teenagers who were caught under operation Arkstone?

 

[31550]

That is why I think a child might ride especially if he was good on the bike I know there were times my son said I hate you and rode off on his bike in defiance. If a child was slapped for hurting some one that is what could happen. While the injured person attended to the wound.

Hmmm not at only 3 years of age. His bike (and his sisters) still had training wheels! Wouldn't have got far on a bike on the road.

 

[js47]

Be interesting to know if FGP had a hiding place in the house for valuables documents etc. the police would not find it that is why you have it. Then next day you go to PM to pick up relative of a plane. Did any one check out the Innes Estate. After living in an area for 20 plus years I bet he FGM knows some good spots.

LRitz Interested to contemplate why you think some one having a hiding place? So many of my friends have security areas. I live in a country area. Kendall is a small town getting to banks etc is difficult you keep cash. You leave your deeds with a solicitor many people keep copies passports etc older people 10 years ago did not keep stuff on I phones.
If your child has had an accident a foster parent would react differently than a bio parent even if you love them. You would be aware you are looking after someone else’s child.
William had just had an injury black eye. He fell off a stool. You would be panicking. He had to leave that property we have to accept
1 when did he go
2 where did he go
3 how did he go
4 why did he go
5 who took him.
Thanks for making me push my thoughts

 

[js47]

Hmmm not at only 3 years of age. His bike (and his sisters) still had training wheels! Wouldn't have got far on a bike on the road.

Have you seen his video? Yep he could ride. He could turn his head and look back it was all down hill. He could do a planned crash.
I don’t know if I should admit this but my son had a mini motor bike. We had to get rid of it because at 5 he built a ramp and I saw him fly through the air past the window. Yep He could ride IMO

 

[js47]

Why was there a towel over the handle bars of the two bikes ?
The door to the garage is open and in the police photo there is yard debris piled up crates etc. This is a bush area I would not want kids there because of snakes spiders etc.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

That all seems quite plausible, except for the 'confession of RP'.
RP's testimony implicates FA. FA, we know, is an experienced opportunist abductor. He has 'rat cunning'. If he took William, he would have acted very quickly, but his location would have been carefully chosen so as to avoid witnesses. If William was abducted by a third party down on Batar Creek Road, it is very close to houses, and a fair amount of traffic passing by. LH returned from her shopping trip around that time of day, and may well have seen something while unloading the car. Other neighbours were coming and going as well.
I think if FA is involved he would be more likely to have taken William from the front yard of FGM house close to Benaroon Drive, where he could have spotted William and grabbed him quickly with no-one seeing. He knew the area, and may have exited via the forest. He had a reason to be at the house - due to his relationship with GO, who was scheduled to repair the FGM deck. So, he may have decided to go there and check it out. As far as I know FA has no witness-supported alibi. But if FA is the culprit, I think he is more likely to be the 'primary', rather than a 'secondary'. If FA happened upon William alone on the road, he would be too wary of being caught or seen (especially with his prior record).
I think if there is a 'secondary' offender, or someone who may have intercepted William on Batar Creek Road, it is more likely to be a local driving around, perhaps even hooning, perhaps like the teenagers who were caught under operation Arkstone?

The GO link is interesting. The unanswered call. The FA work link. The FA comments seeking to implicate GO. GO deteriorating memory.

Is it possible that FA was scheduled by GO to go there the following week but went to check location because he had access to a car? Perhaps. Was he asked by GO to scope the job for needs and that was the reason behind the call? Perhaps.

It almost seems to me that FA was trying to intimidate GO about knowledge....perhaps the job..I take him implicating GO as a subtle threat to keep quiet. Him being asked to go there would be the sort of thing that would cause the subtle threat

 

[Underarrest_]

Yes - no Wallace52: that is paranoia

I feel like it might also be desperation, playing every scenario in his head of who could have taken William.

 

[shorsky]

I think if the FM has done anything (and there’s no proof that she’s harmed William or done anything to William at all), I think it’s most likely this:


And maybe he’s been moved a few times or she’s gone back to move him and he’s already been moved by an animal. And then she wouldn’t know where he was.

IMO

I just feel sick at all these suggestions. How anyone could do anything other than be concerned for the well-being of a child is beyond me.
Yep, I know the world is populated by by people who think against the far extremes of my acceptance - but we need some hope for society. Please don’t let those he turned to for comfort, be responsible for his demise

 

[shorsky]

Agree.

A bit off topic but there is a charity group called "Hope" that support young mothers and parents in difficulty. They focus on support and the parent (often the case is a single Mum) keeping the child. Practical support of health, housing, and education.

I know of a charity (that used to be ) called New Hope. It did awesome work with mostly drug addicted Mums, who put in the hard yards to get their kids back with them, and then be mentored in how to responsibly parent.
There were also some Mums desperately escaping DV and trying to heal for the sake of themselves & their kids,

Guess what - it was forced to close due to No Funding !!

We live in a democratic society yet it’s compulsory to Vote for a Government that can’t see the wood for trees & is comprised of delegates who for the most part, struggle to lie straight in bed.

 

[Awakening]

I know of a charity (that used to be ) called New Hope. It did awesome work with mostly drug addicted Mums, who put in the hard yards to get their kids back with them, and then be mentored in how to responsibly parent.
There were also some Mums desperately escaping DV and trying to heal for the sake of themselves & their kids,

Guess what - it was forced to close due to No Funding !!

We live in a democratic society yet it’s compulsory to Vote for a Government that can’t see the wood for trees & is comprised of delegates who for the most part, struggle to lie straight in bed.

Wasn’t New Hope the organisation responsible for William?

 

[31550]

Wasn’t New Hope the organisation responsible for William?

That was Young Hope (branch / affiliate of Salvation Army I believe). I think it has now folded?

 

[Wallace52]

who’s to know the other child was even a foster child let alone William’s sister.

Oh, please. Who’s to know the other child was even a foster child?

I know who the other child was. In court, sometimes the lawyers or Magistrates stuff up and say her name.

We all <who follow this case closely> know who it is.

IMO, The best way for the foster parents to honour William’s legacy and his memory would have been to treat his sister well. That’s all I’m saying.

I’ve heard those tapes. They were harrowing to listen to. Don’t forget, they were played in open court.

As it is, there’s an AVO in place protecting “the child who isn’t William” for the next 5 years. Whoever it is must be in grave danger; they don’t give those AVO’s out for nothing.

I’m glad that child is now safe. IMO. And now to find William and bring him home.

 

[Wallace52]

That was Young Hope (branch / affiliate of Salvation Army I believe). I think it has now folded?

Spot on. And M. W. has done very well for herself. Her career has gone from strength to strength. Which is odd, to me.

 

[Underarrest_]

Oh, please. Who’s to know the other child was even a foster child?

I know who the other child was. In court, sometimes the lawyers or Magistrates stuff up and say her name.

We all <who follow this case closely> know who it is.

IMO, The best way for the foster parents to honour William’s legacy and his memory would have been to treat his sister well. That’s all I’m saying.

I’ve heard those tapes. They were harrowing to listen to. Don’t forget, they were played in open court.

As it is, there’s an AVO in place protecting “the child who isn’t William” for the next 5 years. Whoever it is must be in grave danger; they don’t give those AVO’s out for nothing.

I’m glad that child is now safe. IMO. And now to find William and bring him home.

I was more meaning that if they’d released the identity of the FP, they could have still had a suppression order on the other children.
Pretty much sums it up, there’s a suppression order on both FPs and Children but you’re saying you know exactly who the child is, so why not name and put a face to the FPs earlier on in the piece in case someone saw them doing something suspicious.
Im glad she’s safe too.
Grave danger, I’m glad there’s now a 5 year DVO after authorities left the child with them long after they suspected the FM was responsible for disposing of William. Not to mention the child reporting abuse to her teacher and the Mum’s concerns for William and then how many harrowing tapes following this?
Pathetic. IMO.

 

[31550]

Spot on. And M. W. has done very well for herself. Her career has gone from strength to strength. Which is odd, to me.

Do you know what the relationship is/was between M.W. and the FM? I suspect they knew each other well before this incident but it's difficult to find the link.

 

[Wallace52]

I was more meaning that if they’d released the identity of the FP, they could have still had a suppression order on the other children.
Pretty much sums it up, there’s a suppression order on both FPs and Children but you’re saying you know exactly who the child is, so why not name and put a face to the FPs earlier on in the piece in case someone saw them doing something suspicious.
Im glad she’s safe too.
Grave danger, I’m glad there’s now a 5 year DVO after authorities left the child with them long after they suspected the FM was responsible for disposing of William. Not to mention the child reporting abuse to her teacher and the Mum’s concerns for William and then how many harrowing tapes following this?
Pathetic. IMO.

Yes, I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Yes - no Wallace52: that is paranoia

Well, if my child went missing and I couldn’t find them, I would be exploring every lead also and I would start to be “paranoid” as I would be desperate to find them.

IMO

 

[Wallace52]

Do you know what the relationship is/was between M.W. and the FM? I suspect they knew each other well before this incident but it's difficult to find the link.

No, I don’t, and I don’t have the time to find the link, unfortunately.

 

[31550]

No, I don’t, and I don’t have the time to find the link, unfortunately.

I can't remember exactly, but I think MW made a comment (either at the Coronial Inquest, or possibly at the trial of FM for assault/intimidate) to the effect that she knew or had known the FM prior to William and his sister going into care.
If this is the case, then I think questions need to be ask about whether the correct legal process was followed, and due diligence performed, or was the placement 'fast-tracked', were various checks by-passed because of this relationship.
I always found it alarming that plans were being made to move William and his sister from the foster care system into an adoption situation. This is highly irregular, and I wonder what special circumstances applied to allow this to happen. Foster care is not normally a pathway to adoption - the primary aim should be reunification of the biological family (unless that becomes impossible). I don't see how the system could allow William and his sister to be adopted (without parental consent) while their biological parents and other family members were still alive, and capable of rehabilitation. (***** has since raised other children for example.)

 

[Underarrest_]

I can't remember exactly, but I think MW made a comment (either at the Coronial Inquest, or possibly at the trial of FM for assault/intimidate) to the effect that she knew or had known the FM prior to William and his sister going into care.
If this is the case, then I think questions need to be ask about whether the correct legal process was followed, and due diligence performed, or was the placement 'fast-tracked', were various checks by-passed because of this relationship.
I always found it alarming that plans were being made to move William and his sister from the foster care system into an adoption situation. This is highly irregular, and I wonder what special circumstances applied to allow this to happen. Foster care is not normally a pathway to adoption - the primary aim should be reunification of the biological family (unless that becomes impossible). I don't see how the system could allow William and his sister to be adopted (without parental consent) while their biological parents and other family members were still alive, and capable of rehabilitation. (Karlie has since raised other children for example.)

Unfortunately adoption of children in long term care is quite common.
Foster care and adoption both happen through child safety taking it through the court system.
Often child safety will have a list of things the bio parents need to work on and if they don’t meet all of those requirements the children stay in foster care and then if long term, adoption.
Places like Young Hope are organisations which work aside child safety to support bio parents.
Often child safety will allow some of their other children to stay in their care because it’s seen that for eg if they have four children they can only cope with caring for two.
It really sucks because if the bio parents eventually get themselves to a point that they’re able to look after the children it’s too late once they’ve been adopted.