Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[31550]

They’re not hiding, news corps just can’t find them. IMO

Firstly; Nat said in the podcast that BC is rehab, and KT is no doubt trying to protect her babies from having strange men and women turn up at her door. I mean, that’s not hiding, it’s just utilising protective behaviours which is what a patent is required to do, legally. You have to be willing and able to protect your children, right?

I’ve seen her boys photos splashed across the pages of the Daily Mail and they were in care when that occurred.

Maybe she doesn’t want her young toddler and infant’s faces out there in the media, for their own safety.

There’s also the issue that ***** <the child who is not William> does visitation, and that child has an AVO protecting her - so for her protection, KT’s address needs to be private, just in case the people who **** need to be protected from try to find her too.

I hope that makes sense!

Excellent points. There are non-disclosure / non-publication orders which would apply to the extended biological family (who are the victims in this case), and they are legally and morally entitled to their own privacy and protections. Anyone (including media) who wants to find them, and stalk them and photograph them, can. Yet they are accused of "hiding", whereas the foster parents are not accused of "hiding", but are treated as though they are victims, although hardly anyone knows who they are. There's a terrible inequality here.

 

[Wallace52]

Excellent points. There are non-disclosure / non-publication orders which would apply to the extended biological family (who are the victims in this case), and they are legally and morally entitled to their own privacy and protections. Anyone (including media) who wants to find them, and stalk them and photograph them, can. Yet they are accused of "hiding", whereas the foster parents are not accused of "hiding", but are treated as though they are victims, although hardly anyone knows who they are. There's a terrible inequality here.

There are no orders protecting them.

They don’t get the same privileges as the foster family and their relatives. So I guess the bios have to try to protect themselves and their children.
IMO

You have to also wonder, are news corps out there looking for KT or are they really looking for **** and trying to find where she visits?

Are they hoping to accidentally stumble upon the child that needs the most protection, the child that no one talks about?

These are just wonderings. Hence the question marks.

 

[31550]

There are no orders protecting them.

They don’t get the same privileges as the foster family and their relatives. So I guess the bios have to try to protect themselves and their children.

What I meant was there are orders protecting L, which by extension, protect the bio family to some extent - not to the extent that they protect the fosters. There are also orders which prevent the bios commenting on certain things, so even if they were interviewed, they would not be allowed (legally) to say certain things publicly. There is also such a thing as 'natural justice' - people are entitled to live their lives freely.

 

[truecrimepath]

Apologies. Yes the actual suit had a white back and the planted one did not. The question is whether Savage knew about the white, and if so, how he knew. Is there evidence that Savage actually said "white", without being prompted? Of course, FGM or someone else in the know may have told him the suit had a white back.

The whole Spiderman suit thing was just dumb. Shows how hopeless the investigation was. Think about it; IF PS had abducted William in a Spiderman suit, do you think he would know where he put him? Whether he saw white on a suit or not, the old guy is Cognitively not there anymore.

At some point you have to stop making excuses for Jubelin.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

GJ had his way of running an investigation. It is a method often used in LE techniques.....entrapment. ..listening in on phone calls between criminals..it historically has been very effective too..principally because criminals are basically dumb. These people aren't dumb..They are very cunning using manipulation as well. GJ was played.

 

[stormbird]

This photo was part of the real estate photos in October , 2014. You can see evidence of a square piece of furniture on the floor. When you look at the Coroners photos it's difficult to see anything was there at all. In addition the floor looks to be a different colour.

I put an outline around it.

View attachment 2142322

That photo was from a group dated October 2015 not 2014. The Property site says the house was listed on 14 Oct 2015 and sold on 18 March 2016; see under "Property timeline":

https://www.property.com.au/nsw/kendall-2439/benaroon-dr/48-pid-155139/

It also says the house was previously sold (presumably for FGM) on 31 October 2014.

The photo of the patio isn't shown on that site, but some other sites have it in a group of 14 e.g. on the View site, click "View all 14 Photos".

https://view.com.au/property/nsw/kendall-2439/48-benaroon-drive/

The photos were probably taken after FGM moved out but I think they do help make sense of the layout of the house.

Here's a view from the laundry looking across the patio (past the kitchen window and clothes line) towards the corner of the house where the fosters said William was last seen:

And here's a floor plan from Daily Mail, 09 May 2022 which can help locate the rooms but doesn't show the location of the patio:

 

[Underarrest_]

It’s surprising how close the house behind is and the potential view from the house towards the patio area.
It’s a shame the owners weren’t home.
I have so many questions around this.
How close was the FGM to these Neighbours?
Did they tell her when they went away or how long were they away for?
Did F family know they were away or not until FF went there to search?
Would FM be sure that no one from that house saw/heard what happened?

 

[Underarrest_]

I can’t see any numbers on these properties.
Might be easy to confuse the two if you were perhaps a tradie who swung in to have a look at something.

 

[truecrimepath]

This is the solution to this photo. The sun is very high up in the sky. Just too high for winter or spring. I think it was taken between November and February. Bright cloud. Note shadow from newspaper on grandmas legs. Last posting on time/date of photos. There are other features not marked on photo that also help. I have given a sample for February.

 

[31550]

This is the solution to this photo. The sun is very high up in the sky. Just too high for winter or spring. I think it was taken between November and February. Bright cloud. Note shadow from newspaper on grandmas legs. Last posting on time/date of photos. There are other features not marked on photo that also help. I have given a sample for February.
View attachment 2143913

View attachment 2143921

So you are suggesting William is only 2 1/2 years old in these photos? Also the photos were taken when 'Opa' was alive? (Think he died in Feb). And there would need to have been a second Spiderman suit, the same, only larger bought in Bali? And no neighbours or independent witnesses saw William or his sister on this earlier visit? And all the drawing materials, drink bottles, kids toys were kept for 9 months to recreate the scene? Including FGM and Ls clothing? And all the verandah furniture and plants were the same 9 months later? Should be easy to pinpoint the date then, either from fosters phone records or daycare records or FACS records giving permission to visit?

 

[stormbird]

It’s surprising how close the house behind is and the potential view from the house towards the patio area.
It’s a shame the owners weren’t home.
I have so many questions around this.
How close was the FGM to these Neighbours?
Did they tell her when they went away or how long were they away for?
Did F family know they were away or not until FF went there to search?
Would FM be sure that no one from that house saw/heard what happened?

I think there are also questions to ask about the potential view from FGM's towards that house and yard.

There was a swing set and a cubby or garden shed in the backyard at No.52. See FF's walk-through:

Daily Mail, YouTube from 2:08 minutes


FF indicates he checked the swings/possible-cubby area while making his way around the boundary, but I think it's strange he didn't go there first. IMO it's the most obvious place a child might want to go to if that area could be seen from FGM's.

FM said she thought William might have been attracted to a play area at a neighbour's place (I think she means Anne Maree S's at No.31):

Interview by Chris Smith, 2GB, 18 Sep 2015, YouTube from 4:33 minutes

But did FM check the swings right next door to FGM's at No.52 before running down the hill to the properties along the lower part of Benaroon Drive? I haven't found anything saying she did.

Maybe the swings/possible-cubby area at No.52 couldn't be seen from FGM's and none of them knew about it.

But then, why did No.52 have swings? Were there kids living there? grandkids visiting occasionally? foster kids? Had William ever played over there, such that even if he couldn't see the swings from FGM's he might have remembered where they were?

 

[truecrimepath]

So you are suggesting William is only 2 1/2 years old in these photos? Also the photos were taken when 'Opa' was alive? (Think he died in Feb). And there would need to have been a second Spiderman suit, the same, only larger bought in Bali? And no neighbours or independent witnesses saw William or his sister on this earlier visit? And all the drawing materials, drink bottles, kids toys were kept for 9 months to recreate the scene? Including FGM and Ls clothing? And all the verandah furniture and plants were the same 9 months later? Should be easy to pinpoint the date then, either from fosters phone records or daycare records or FACS records giving permission to visit?

All I can do is assess the photos. February is when Grandpa died. It could have been that visit. They were there for the funeral.

The rest of what you said relies on testimony from the foster family. You have made many claims there. How many of them are from independent witnesses. Can you justify your claims? I think the flowers are completely different in the planter box btw.

The photos do not stand up to scrutiny for September 12 at 9.37am in my honest opinion. But the Coroner hinted at that btw when she suspended the Coronial proceedings.

Part of the problem is that you have a fixed idea what happened to him. You are likely to agree with anything that fits that opinion. Its called confirmatory Bias. What I am trying to do is look at the evidence on its merits. You go to extreme lengths to say black is blue. You are not the only one.

'no neighbours or independent witnesses saw William or his sister on this earlier visit' . Same as the September visit really.

 

[31550]

All I can do is assess the photos. February is when Grandpa died. It could have been that visit. They were there for the funeral.

The rest of what you said relies on testimony from the foster family. You have made many claims there. How many of them are from independent witnesses. Can you justify your claims? I think the flowers are completely different in the planter box btw.

The photos do not stand up to scrutiny for September 12 at 9.37am in my honest opinion. But the Coroner hinted at that btw when she suspended the Coronial proceedings.

Part of the problem is that you have a fixed idea what happened to him. You are likely to agree with anything that fits that opinion. Its called confirmatory Bias. What I am trying to do is look at the evidence on its merits. You go to extreme lengths to say black is blue. You are not the only one.

'no neighbours or independent witnesses saw William or his sister on this earlier visit' . Same as the September visit really.

Were they there for the funeral, including William and L as you suggest? Why would they go for the funeral and be playing on the verandah, with FGM in her slippers at midday as you suggest? Staying overnight with two young children would be very inconvenient for a grieving FGM.

I am making no claims, therefore I have nothing to justify. I am just positioning your assertion (that the photo was taken Nov-Feb 2013) against the other evidence in the case. That is your assertion, not mine. But if it is true, then everything else I asked you about must also be true: the second Spiderman suit, keeping all the toys and materials, furniture on the verandah etc. etc. Because FM claims the entire set of photographs were taken 12 Sep 2014, and police investigated and photographed the scene, so they could easily compare the furniture, clothing, toys etc. to confirm it was the same in their photographs as in FMs photographs. Is this what you are asserting or not?
Are you also asserting that FM or an accomplice expertly manipulated the EXIF data on those photographs including Creation Date, and this has not been detected by Rosann? Do you know of any witness who saw William at Opa's funeral, or in Kendall around that time of year wearing a Spiderman suit? Where do you believe this 'November 2013' Spiderman suit was purchased, given that it has been alleged that that particular suit is not readily available in Australia, and the fosters said it was purchased in Bali in July or August 2014?

 

[Underarrest_]

I think there are also questions to ask about the potential view from FGM's towards that house and yard.

There was a swing set and a cubby or garden shed in the backyard at No.52. See FF's walk-through:

Daily Mail, YouTube from 2:08 minutes


FF indicates he checked the swings/possible-cubby area while making his way around the boundary, but I think it's strange he didn't go there first. IMO it's the most obvious place a child might want to go to if that area could be seen from FGM's.

FM said she thought William might have been attracted to a play area at a neighbour's place (I think she means Anne Maree S's at No.31):

Interview by Chris Smith, 2GB, 18 Sep 2015, YouTube from 4:33 minutes

But did FM check the swings right next door to FGM's at No.52 before running down the hill to the properties along the lower part of Benaroon Drive? I haven't found anything saying she did.

Maybe the swings/possible-cubby area at No.52 couldn't be seen from FGM's and none of them knew about it.

But then, why did No.52 have swings? Were there kids living there? grandkids visiting occasionally? foster kids? Had William ever played over there, such that even if he couldn't see the swings from FGM's he might have remembered where they were?

I think it would make sense that if William had walked a little away he could have seen the cubby/swings or as you said, had he had interactions there before?
Did he have swings at his house in Sydney which made it seem normal to go towards them?
FF said he was assuming he would more go downhill which is probably right, unless there’s something drawing him uphill.
I only mention it because I’ve seen a lot of media coverage of one side of the house which runs downhill to the road but none of the back house and how that leads out to the other part of the road.

 

[truecrimepath]

Were they there for the funeral, including William and L as you suggest? Why would they go for the funeral and be playing on the verandah, with FGM in her slippers at midday as you suggest? Staying overnight with two young children would be very inconvenient for a grieving FGM.

I am making no claims, therefore I have nothing to justify. I am just positioning your assertion (that the photo was taken Nov-Feb 2013) against the other evidence in the case. That is your assertion, not mine. But if it is true, then everything else I asked you about must also be true: the second Spiderman suit, keeping all the toys and materials, furniture on the verandah etc. etc. Because FM claims the entire set of photographs were taken 12 Sep 2014, and police investigated and photographed the scene, so they could easily compare the furniture, clothing, toys etc. to confirm it was the same in their photographs as in FMs photographs. Is this what you are asserting or not?
Are you also asserting that FM or an accomplice expertly manipulated the EXIF data on those photographs including Creation Date, and this has not been detected by Rosann? Do you know of any witness who saw William at Opa's funeral, or in Kendall around that time of year wearing a Spiderman suit? Where do you believe this 'November 2013' Spiderman suit was purchased, given that it has been alleged that that particular suit is not readily available in Australia, and the fosters said it was purchased in Bali in July or August 2014?

Except they did not photograph the scene until it was too late. This is first hand information from a police officer in the Port Macquarie command which I am unable to divulge. Look up manipulation of EXIF for the fourth time. It is really simple. I have shown others how to do it. No EXIF is reliable. You seem to know what Rosann knows. I am not sure they are the gold standard btw. That suit could have been purchased online anywhere.

How many suits did he have? one or two?

 

[Wallace52]

The photos do not stand up to scrutiny for September 12 at 9.37am in my honest opinion. But the Coroner hinted at that btw when she suspended the Coronial proceedings.

We will know either way - soon enough.

 

[31550]

GJ had his way of running an investigation. It is a method often used in LE techniques.....entrapment. ..listening in on phone calls between criminals..it historically has been very effective too..principally because criminals are basically dumb. These people aren't dumb..They are very cunning using manipulation as well. GJ was played.

Interesting. Jubelin's style is a stark contrast to Ron Iddles. Ron always tried to establish empathy with suspects and he treated them with human respect and dignity, no matter how horrific the crime. This made it easy for people to open up to him, which is how he solved so many cases. Jubelin takes an adversarial approach and treats suspects with disdain, no respect at all. Not all criminals are dumb. In fact, the more serious criminals such as serial killers tend to be highly intelligent.

 

[31550]

. You seem to know what Rosann knows. I am not sure they are the gold standard btw.

I only know what Rosann have divulged publicly. I agree they are far from gold standard but they are the ones charged with solving this crime. The coroner will rely heavily on the evidence Rosann submit. No other police unit is going to pursue this case. Rosann released the photographs 10 years ago allegedly taken by FM. So if these photos are faked, Rosann has misled the public for 10 years. If Rosann now believe the photos are faked they have a duty to report this publicly otherwise Rosann themselves are perverting the course of justice.

 

[Underarrest_]

Except they did not photograph the scene until it was too late. This is first hand information from a police officer in the Port Macquarie command which I am unable to divulge. Look up manipulation of EXIF for the fourth time. It is really simple. I have shown others how to do it. No EXIF is reliable. You seem to know what Rosann knows. I am not sure they are the gold standard btw. That suit could have been purchased online anywhere.

How many suits did he have? one or two?

Are you able to say if or exactly when police photographed the patio/surroundings?

Except they did not photograph the scene until it was too late. This is first hand information from a police officer in the Port Macquarie command which I am unable to divulge. Look up manipulation of EXIF for the fourth time. It is really simple. I have shown others how to do it. No EXIF is reliable. You seem to know what Rosann knows. I am not sure they are the gold standard btw. That suit could have been purchased online anywhere.

How many suits did he have? one or two?

Except they did not photograph the scene until it was too late. This is first hand information from a police officer in the Port Macquarie command which I am unable to divulge. Look up manipulation of EXIF for the fourth time. It is really simple. I have shown others how to do it. No EXIF is reliable. You seem to know what Rosann knows. I am not sure they are the gold standard btw. That suit could have been purchased online anywhere.

How many suits did he have? one or two?

We know this part of the patio was taken days later when they interviewed FF.
Not sure when police took photographs.
The one thing that supports your thoughts about the photos is that police dogs found no scent on the property which is very strange if he’d walked from the car to the house that night (maybe he was asleep and carried) or played at all in the front/back yard/patio, or was it the way police worded it (that they’d not picked up his scent other than where they know he’d been seen?)

 

[Underarrest_]

I only know what Rosann have divulged publicly. I agree they are far from gold standard but they are the ones charged with solving this crime. The coroner will rely heavily on the evidence Rosann submit. No other police unit is going to pursue this case. Rosann released the photographs 10 years ago allegedly taken by FM. So if these photos are faked, Rosann has misled the public for 10 years. If Rosann now believe the photos are faked they have a duty to report this publicly otherwise Rosann themselves are perverting the course of justice.

Would they have had to give FP’s Lawyer as she requested the apparent evidence they have or can they withhold that until the inquest (or parts of it?)

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Would they have had to give FP’s Lawyer as she requested the apparent evidence they have or can they withhold that until the inquest (or parts of it?)

A brief of evidence is provided to the defence once charges are laid not before..

 

[Underarrest_]

A brief of evidence is provided to the defence once charges are laid not before..

Thank you.

 

[31550]

Would they have had to give FP’s Lawyer as she requested the apparent evidence they have or can they withhold that until the inquest (or parts of it?)

She hasnt been charged with anything relating to William or the photos, so no. The inquest is not into the FM. The inquest is to determine what happened to William, not lay blame at anyone.