Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[LRitz]

Yes we do. Phone records attached to his and FM police statement. He was working in the morning and called FM to let her know he was going to finish early, so his phone would have been pinging in Sydney. How did he get up to Kendall and back to Sydney in time to pick up FM and the kids around 3pm?

PS: I think an explanation is that Savage possibly became confused about which day he saw the FF "Landrover" in FGM driveway. It would have been there on the Friday and Saturday. I don't think Savage was interviewed formally until some time after William disappeared. Note that Heather savage reported seeing tail lights on the Thursday night around 9pm, which would coincide with the fosters arrival. But she didn't identify the vehicle.

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

 

[31550]

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

I think this is a bit of a red herring. When did Savage say this and what exactly was he asked? Possibly they had another car but what difference does it make? It was the new FF car they drove to Kendall, not any other vehicle and they were all in McDonald's together. So they couldn't have got another vehicle to Kendall in that time window.

 

[LRitz]

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

Could be the first is leaving and the second is returning. So she is away for approximately 20 minutes.

 

[LRitz]

I think this is a bit of a red herring. When did Savage say this and what exactly was he asked? Possibly they had another car but what difference does it make? It was the new FF car they drove to Kendall, not any other vehicle and they were all in McDonald's together. So they couldn't have got another vehicle to Kendall in that time window.

i can not see any reason for Paul Savage to make up this story. Was he correct with the time and date, maybe not. But we believe other neighbours, so why not him? So who visited FGM in a fancy 4WD?
OK crazy idea. FF doubles back and meets FM on her way up. They all get into Land Rover and leave a car that they pick up on the return trip to Sydney. Did the follow evidence of the drive from Sydney. Or did they say , preschool, cats, CCTV McDonalds all fit in. McDonalds was certainly an important stop for their narrative. Nothing to see here.

Was FF seen at the preschool?

 

[31550]

i can not see any reason for Paul Savage to make up this story. Was he correct with the time and date, maybe not. But we believe other neighbours, so why not him? So who visited FGM in a fancy 4WD?
OK crazy idea. FF doubles back and meets FM on her way up. They all get into Land Rover and leave a car that they pick up on the return trip to Sydney. Did the follow evidence of the drive from Sydney. Or did they say , preschool, cats, CCTV McDonalds all fit in. McDonalds was certainly an important stop for their narrative. Nothing to see here.

Was FF seen at the preschool?

Not saying Savage made anything up. I just believe this comment may have been made quite a long time after the event (possibly when Jubelin was trying to set him up). By then Paul's memory may have been clouded. He was old, had lost his wife, and now was being falsely accused of abducting a 3YO boy. It may have just been an honest mistake about the time or the day. Really think this is a red herring. Can't see any evidence for the fosters having two cars in Kendall. Where did the second one go, and how did its driver get back to the FGM house without it?

 

[LRitz]

Not saying Savage made anything up. I just believe this comment may have been made quite a long time after the event (possibly when Jubelin was trying to set him up). By then Paul's memory may have been clouded. He was old, had lost his wife, and now was being falsely accused of abducting a 3YO boy. It may have just been an honest mistake about the time or the day. Really think this is a red herring. Can't see any evidence for the fosters having two cars in Kendall. Where did the second one go, and how did its driver get back to the FGM house without it?

Maybe swapped cars near McDonalds. All arrive at McDonalds in one car. Collect the other car at a later time on their return trip to Sydney. As I said, sounds pretty unlikely. But hiding a body, and then moving it without detection or any evidence, IMO unlikely or impossible.

 

[Awakening]

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

Interesting theory and a distraction from exif data.

One consideration is that the late FGF had such a vehicle that hadn’t been sold yet. Although you’d think the neighbours would be aware of that.

You could try seeing if any such vehicles were sold between September and December?

 

[31550]

Maybe swapped cars near McDonalds. All arrive at McDonalds in one car. Collect the other car at a later time on their return trip to Sydney. As I said, sounds pretty unlikely. But hiding a body, and then moving it without detection or any evidence, IMO unlikely or impossible.

Not 100% sure but there is likely CCTV on the highway which would confirm the entire drive being done in the FF car as stated.

For a second car to be in play, they would have had to transport the cats in the other car, go to daycare in the other car, and then transfer the kids and all their luggage including bikes from the other car to the FF car at McDonalds, where there is CCTV in the car park. And nobody noticed any of this? At the cattery and day care. And how did FF do his job that morning if he was driving from Kendall to McDonalds? Where is the second car now? How did it move from FGM house without anyone seeing, and how did its driver get back to FGM house?

On the other hand, nobody except the truck driver saw the FM drive to the riding school and back, so moving a body from FGM house in the drive could have easily been done with nobody seeing. The drive may have been further up Batar Creek Rd than we are led to believe - in 10 minutes you could reach the end of the road where there is deep forest which AFAIK has never been searched. OR a secondary person may have moved the body from the riding school to another location. FF has no alibi for early Friday morning.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The comment by FM to AMS at start of search was Incriminating..something along the lines....
"He's either hit his head and cant hear me or someone has taken him".

I know a few are speculating whether it was more than an accident. A full blooded smack across the head could possibly perforate an eardrum.

But they were entirely happy that day we are repeatedly told

 

[31550]

The comment by FM to AMS at start of search was Incriminating..something along the lines....
"He's either hit his head and cant hear me or someone has taken him".

I know a few are speculating whether it was more than an accident. A full blooded smack across the head could possibly perforate an eardrum.

But they were entirely happy that day we are repeatedly told

A genuine accident requires no moving of the body, certainly no drive to BCR. So if something happened to William at the house IMO it was more than an accident. But police have no proof so are making no such allegation.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

A genuine accident requires no moving of the body, certainly no drive to BCR. So if something happened to William at the house IMO it was more than an accident. But police have no proof so are making no such allegation.

I conceive that an accident with negligence involved would also be possible.. examples might be chasing to discipline and he jumps off balcony. Or a car hit by FF not reported because he seemed ok but then collapsed.

 

[LRitz]

Not 100% sure but there is likely CCTV on the highway which would confirm the entire drive being done in the FF car as stated.

For a second car to be in play, they would have had to transport the cats in the other car, go to daycare in the other car, and then transfer the kids and all their luggage including bikes from the other car to the FF car at McDonalds, where there is CCTV in the car park. And nobody noticed any of this? At the cattery and day care. And how did FF do his job that morning if he was driving from Kendall to McDonalds? Where is the second car now? How did it move from FGM house without anyone seeing, and how did its driver get back to FGM house?

On the other hand, nobody except the truck driver saw the FM drive to the riding school and back, so moving a body from FGM house in the drive could have easily been done with nobody seeing. The drive may have been further up Batar Creek Rd than we are led to believe - in 10 minutes you could reach the end of the road where there is deep forest which AFAIK has never been searched. OR a secondary person may have moved the body from the riding school to another location. FF has no alibi for early Friday morning.

CCTV may not have been checked for the Thursday Sydney drive. there was no need and they are not suspects at this point.
Land Rover could have already been packed with luggage bikes ( and that new shovel, no doubt bought with cash).
Transfer near Mcdonalds, not at McDonalds. Any witnesses to see him at work ? Or just phone calls? Again I am not saying this is likely.

A "secondary person"?
I'm just saying the concussion without death, or hiding and moving a body, no sign of an accident at the house is pretty fanciful as well. The whole idea of hiding these events without getting caught is very unlikely. Yet the theory is the FM (mostly on her own) decides she can get away this. If she makes one slip up she is facing charges, manslaughter or worse. Forget the problem of keeping the daughter. So I am amazed FM was able to do all this. Unless there was prior planning.

 

[31550]

CCTV may not have been checked for the Thursday Sydney drive. there was no need and they are not suspects at this point.
Land Rover could have already been packed with luggage bikes ( and that new shovel, no doubt bought with cash).
Transfer near Mcdonalds, not at McDonalds. Any witnesses to see him at work ? Or just phone calls? Again I am not saying this is likely.

A "secondary person"?
I'm just saying the concussion without death, or hiding and moving a body, no sign of an accident at the house is pretty fanciful as well. The whole idea of hiding these events without getting caught is very unlikely. Yet the theory is the FM (mostly on her own) decides she can get away this. If she makes one slip up she is facing charges, manslaughter or worse. Forget the problem of keeping the daughter. So I am amazed FM was able to do all this. Unless there was prior planning.

I don't think what I am suggesting is more fanciful than a predetermined conspiracy by two foster parents (and possibly others) to get rid of a 3YO boy for no apparent reason.

 

[DropBearess]

I wonder if we will ever hear testimony from William's pre-school and child-care staff? They were a significant presence in William's short life and saw more of William than the FPs did most week days. They were all mandatory reporters. There are so many questions l would like to ask.

* Was William ever reluctant to go home with his carers? What was his attitude when SD arrived to collect him?

* Did they ever notice or document his apparent weight loss after his Bali holiday? What were his eating habits? Did he bring adequate food?

* William was reported to be "head-shy" early in the investigation. Did they observe this?

* How did he interact with other children? Was he overbearing, passive, violent or demanding? Was he overly compliant with staff?

* What were his favourite topics of conversation and which FP did he prefer to talk about?

* Was he appropriately dressed each day? Did he ever wear costumes at times or for extended periods?

* Did he ever present with unexplained bruising or evidence of neglect other than the black eye?

* Was he developmentally delayed? How were his problem-solving skills? Was he comfortable asking for assistance when necessary?

* Was he frequently sad or was he bubbly and optimistic? How did he express his feelings?

My entire career has involved child and vulnerable adult protection, working with families and professional stakeholders at a high level over 40 years. Documentations of William's early childhood are crucial; particularly essential as he was a foster child. Where are these documents? Have they been taken into evidence? As expected, they will be guarded by the Dept like Fort Knox, but must surely be subpoenaed in closed court if every aspect of William's short life matters.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[31550]

I wonder if we will ever hear testimony from William's pre-school and child-care staff? They were a significant presence in William's short life and saw more of William than the FPs did most week days. They were all mandatory reporters. There are so many questions l would like to ask.

* Was William ever reluctant to go home with his carers? What was his attitude when SD arrived to collect him?

* Did they ever notice or document his apparent weight loss after his Bali holiday? What were his eating habits? Did he bring adequate food?

* William was reported to be "head-shy" early in the investigation. Did they observe this?

* How did he interact with other children? Was he overbearing, passive, violent or demanding? Was he overly compliant with staff?

* What were his favourite topics of conversation and which FP did he prefer to talk about?

* Was he appropriately dressed each day? Did he ever wear costumes at times or for extended periods?

* Did he ever present with unexplained bruising or evidence of neglect other than the black eye?

* Was he developmentally delayed? How were his problem-solving skills? Was he comfortable asking for assistance when necessary?

* Was he frequently sad or was he bubbly and optimistic? How did he express his feelings?

My entire career has involved child and vulnerable adult protection, working with families and professional stakeholders at a high level over 40 years. Documentations of William's early childhood are crucial; particularly essential as he was a foster child. Where are these documents? Have they been taken into evidence? As expected, they will be guarded by the Dept like Fort Knox, but must surely be subpoenaed in closed court if every aspect of William's short life matters.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

All good questions. But none relate to the police theory of an accident.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I wonder if we will ever hear testimony from William's pre-school and child-care staff? They were a significant presence in William's short life and saw more of William than the FPs did most week days. They were all mandatory reporters. There are so many questions l would like to ask.

* Was William ever reluctant to go home with his carers? What was his attitude when SD arrived to collect him?

* Did they ever notice or document his apparent weight loss after his Bali holiday? What were his eating habits? Did he bring adequate food?

* William was reported to be "head-shy" early in the investigation. Did they observe this?

* How did he interact with other children? Was he overbearing, passive, violent or demanding? Was he overly compliant with staff?

* What were his favourite topics of conversation and which FP did he prefer to talk about?

* Was he appropriately dressed each day? Did he ever wear costumes at times or for extended periods?

* Did he ever present with unexplained bruising or evidence of neglect other than the black eye?

* Was he developmentally delayed? How were his problem-solving skills? Was he comfortable asking for assistance when necessary?

* Was he frequently sad or was he bubbly and optimistic? How did he express his feelings?

My entire career has involved child and vulnerable adult protection, working with families and professional stakeholders at a high level over 40 years. Documentations of William's early childhood are crucial; particularly essential as he was a foster child. Where are these documents? Have they been taken into evidence? As expected, they will be guarded by the Dept like Fort Knox, but must surely be subpoenaed in closed court if every aspect of William's short life matters.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

Bio parents complained he was inappropriately dressed too much for her liking

FPs complained that he was disrupted after every bio visit and was why they were seeking to disrupt them

Multiple occassions where FPs referred to falls. Off a chair once. Off FM another

FPs both agree he had affinity with FF but was oppositional it seems with FM

The very last bio visit he was apparently very subdued and clingy

What I know from my dysfunctional ex is that the failed parenting builds pressure that culminates in a emotional eruption with poor discipline choices and verbalising. We've seen that in the secret recordings. The venue....her FGMs place would add to the pressure because of expectations the FGM regarding behaviours then placing pressure on FM to ensure compliant behaviour

In other words it was a recipe for disaster. Dysfunctional parenting. FF ( the circuit breaker) not home. Children with behavioral issues. Further pressure from FGM expectations.

 

[31550]

The inquest will then view two electronically recorded interviews by police of another key witness, who cannot be named or identified, in 2014 and again in 2022.

I hope that this witness is William's sister, and I hope she is able to provide valuable evidence.

 

[Wallace52]

As far as I can see: This entire episode of Witness:William Tyrrell is in breach of the suppression order re-instated by the Coroner, as requested by William’s father’s lawyer this week.



How long until it comes down?

I don’t think any of the suppression orders should be broken.

Not for the foster family, or the biological family. All imho.

 

[31550]

As far as I can see: This entire episode of Witness:William Tyrrell is in breach of the suppression order re-instated by the Coroner, as requested by William’s father’s lawyer this week.



How long until it comes down?

I don’t think any of the suppression orders should be broken.

Not for the foster family, or the biological family. All imho.

Breach of a legal suppression order or non-publication order is a criminal offence. It may even constitute contempt of court.

The problem is that these orders themselves are often secret, so we don't always know their full extent, who took them out, who they apply to, and for how long etc.

"Journalists" (and I use the term loosely) are generally free to publish what they like as long as there is 'absence of malice'. So unless Box and his cronies have been specifically prohibited from using people's names, they can legally do so, even though it's morally contemptible.

Also I'm not sure that the coronial suppression order is as far-reaching as other more general suppression orders and NPOs which may be in place protecting the fosters etc. The coroner only has jurisdiction over matters relating to the inquest.

 

[shorsky]

Maybe the Freelander was driven by anyone whatsoever. Is there a reason you want to introduce the idea of a boyfriend for FGM or your own advanced age?

It has previously been suggested that FGM had a male friend who was a Pilot.
I guess no one but them really knows the extent of that friendship, and personally I don’t care. …. as long as he had no involvement in William’s disappearance.

 

[js47]

What I was referring to was the Crabb's evidence of hearing a car on the day, after they returned. If it was not the postie, then another person would have come forward IMO. Sorry for confusion.
I WILL TELL YOU THIS YOU COUKD NOT DO A TRIP TO KENDALL AND BACK BY EARLY AFTERNOON ON THURSDAY AND EHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE IN HIS OFFICE TELEPHONES ETC.
Paul Savage said he saw a Land Rover at FGM's on thursday!

I am guessing he would have been a reliable witness. He sounds like the type of guy that knows his makes and models. He keeps a sharp eye out for unusual traffic on their quiet street. At this point he is not a suspect, and would have been trying to be helpful. Why would he make this up? So there is a report of Land Rover at FGM's house. In FGM's walkthrough she is asked what she did Thursday ( A: went to community centre, shopping Lauriton, came home and rested). She does not mention any one visiting her. She would have been home by "late afternoon" Why would there be a car there? What does "visit" mean. Does this mean it is in the driveway. FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. I suppose we don't know his movements or alibis for Thursday.

 

[DropBearess]

All good questions. But none relate to the police theory of an accident.

The aim of this lnquest is not just to explore the police theory of an accident. It is happening to explore every aspect of William's short life to ascertain whether he is alive or deceased, so my questions are relevant.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[shorsky]

The reported inquest agenda for today (Wednesday)

1. Truck Driver
2. (Closed Court) witnesses electronically recorded interviews*2
3. Foster Mother evidence to NSW CC evidence replayed.

Truckie to testify as William Tyrrell probe continues

A truck driver in the area when William Tyrrell's foster mum is accused of disposing of the boy's...

www.canberratimes.com.au

'Truckie to testify as William Tyrrell probe continues'​

'Updated November 6 2024 - 3:31am, first published 3:30am
...
As the inquest continues on Wednesday, a truck driver who passed through the neighbourhood on the day the toddler vanished is expected to give evidence of what he did at the time and who he encountered.

The inquest will then view two electronically recorded interviews by police of another key witness, who cannot be named or identified, in 2014 and again in 2022.

This will occur in a closed court session.

Footage of the foster mother giving evidence before the NSW Crime Commission will also be played before the inquest comes to a close.
...'

These would be L’s interviews imo.

 

[stormbird]

It has previously been suggested that FGM had a male friend who was a Pilot.
I guess no one but them really knows the extent of that friendship, and personally I don’t care. …. as long as he had no involvement in William’s disappearance.

Suggested by evidence in a statement? Or by a random on social media? I've seen the suggestion before but not a source for it.

 

[js47]

The comment by FM to AMS at start of search was Incriminating..something along the lines....
"He's either hit his head and cant hear me or someone has taken him".

I know a few are speculating whether it was more than an accident. A full blooded smack across the head could possibly perforate an eardrum.

But they were entirely happy that day we are repeatedly told

They were not perfectly happy that day
Fact FF was annoyed FM told him to take care she would handle kids
William and L were fighting over toy
FGM was discussing William’s behaviour FM said that’s what little boys do
William Supposedly crashed bike.
Doesn’t sound to happy to me