Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * Coroners Inquiry CANCELLED!

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Awakening]

I thought we heard it was confirmed that the post lady did a much earlier trip that day, so what they heard could not have been the postie.

I believe there was also some discussion between Mr & Mrs Crabbe re the time the heard the vehicle, as each had a different opinion.

We did. It just shows you how much conflicting information is out there.

 

[31550]

Maybe the Freelander was driven by anyone whatsoever. Is there a reason you want to introduce the idea of a boyfriend for FGM or your own advanced age?

It's one avenue of investigation that IMO was never pursued to a great extent. In these type of cases police should always start with people connected to the family or the property and work outwards. If the FGM had close friends who visited the property regularly, they should have been investigated thoroughly.
People don't go to that end of Benaroon Drive without a reason. If William was abducted it was likely by someone who knew he would / might be there - the odds of an opportunistic abduction in that location are very low IMO.

 

[Awakening]

The times given in the article on Monday were even stranger, IMO, and I wondered what they were based on:

"It was determined the car was heard by the Crabbes about 10.08am to 10.13am, which was around the time William was meant to have disappeared."
- News.com.au, 04 Nov 2024

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

 

[31550]

Fact: FM said she drove to riding school and saw truck
Fact: that driver has come forward & will give evidence
Fact: the LE theory even now was W was placed at Cobb & co
Fact: there is no forensic evidence nor cadaver indications at that site
Fact: head injuries can cause immediate death but so too slow death from bleeding/ swelling

Speculation: the LE theory could be explained IF W was placed at the site whilst still in coma and was moved soon after also in coma

William's scent was not detected off the property. William was not found despite extensive and immediate ground search. William was only 3, not a wanderer, may have been barefoot. William was only out of sight for 5-10 minutes. Hence, William must have been removed by vehicle, as he couldn't have got out of range of the search on foot only.
Very few vehicles travel in that end of the street. Crabb's can hear vehicles from their back yard. They only heard one vehicle, around 10am (approximate time - it was definitely after 9:40 when they returned home and before 10:30 when FF came to see them). (I think Mr Crabb and Mrs Crabb each reported hearing a car, but their estimated times differed slightly).

Other neighbours were coming and going but no suspicious cars were observed in this time period.

One vehicle known to have left the property and returned is FGM car driven by FM.
Truck driver will presumably confirm seeing FM car on BCR.

Conclusion - the only car which can be identified leaving the house is the FGM car, so that is most likely the way William left the property.

FM said she was looking for William in the garden when she received the text from FF 'Home in 5' (original police statement Sep 2014). If the time of the drive is before FF return home, then the drive was made before FM started looking for William. So the drive was not 'looking for William'.

Balance of probability says it was the FM drive which removed William from the property.

All the above is based on fact and logic.
The reasons for the drive are now speculation.

 

[31550]

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

I cant find it either but always thought Mr C said 9:50 and Mrs C said 10:10

 

[LRitz]

Waving/throwing/chucking shoes; it’s all just semantics isn’t it…

What's with the shoes everyone?

If I had to hide shoes I would not throw them out of the car and hope they were not able to be seen. They were bright colours. There were two shoes. How far could you throw them? Wallace52, put yourself in that position, how do you think you would get rid of shoes?

And what if FM had a mistake on her 000 call about shoes. She made lots of other errors and changed her story. In the last photo he does not have shoes, just dirty feet. She could just say in the confusion she thought he had his shoes. Maybe safer than making that trip.

I agree that in the jump off the deck and being a tiger narrative, the shoes are a problem because they are in the photo at the back door. And no mention of putting them on. William disappeared after the photo, and IMO the shoes and anything else incriminating disappeared with him.

 

[LRitz]

Why would the person come forward, though, LRitz? As far as I know, no one was looking for them, and presumably they hadn't done anything wrong. My point was just that Paul S at No.43 claimed to have seen them earlier in the week, which means that it was possible at that time for a 4WD to use the fire trail.

Paul also claimed to have seen a Land Rover Freelander visiting FGM's on the Thursday afternoon. Just my opinion, I wonder if he was actually remembering the fosters' Land Rover Discovery early the next morning as he went past FGM's on his walk. But is that what your suggestion about an FF daytrip is referring to?

From News.com.au, 20 Aug 2019:

'On the day before William vanished, Mr Savage had seen a car he had not seen before or since “roar” up the street towards the fire trail.

He described it in a statement to police soon afterwards as a “dull red-coloured Nissan Patrol wagon, a 90s model with a square type build”.

In the late afternoon of that day, Mr Savage also saw a vehicle he believed to be a Land Rover Freelander visit the home of William’s foster grandmother.'

What I was referring to was the Crabb's evidence of hearing a car on the day, after they returned. If it was not the postie, then another person would have come forward IMO. Sorry for confusion.

Paul Savage said he saw a Land Rover at FGM's on thursday!

I am guessing he would have been a reliable witness. He sounds like the type of guy that knows his makes and models. He keeps a sharp eye out for unusual traffic on their quiet street. At this point he is not a suspect, and would have been trying to be helpful. Why would he make this up? So there is a report of Land Rover at FGM's house. In FGM's walkthrough she is asked what she did Thursday ( A: went to community centre, shopping Lauriton, came home and rested). She does not mention any one visiting her. She would have been home by "late afternoon" Why would there be a car there? What does "visit" mean. Does this mean it is in the driveway. FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. I suppose we don't know his movements or alibis for Thursday.

 

[31550]

FF could have been up and back to Kendall in a day. I suppose we don't know his movements or alibis for Thursday.

Yes we do. Phone records attached to his and FM police statement. He was working in the morning and called FM to let her know he was going to finish early, so his phone would have been pinging in Sydney. How did he get up to Kendall and back to Sydney in time to pick up FM and the kids around 3pm?

PS: I think an explanation is that Savage possibly became confused about which day he saw the FF "Landrover" in FGM driveway. It would have been there on the Friday and Saturday. I don't think Savage was interviewed formally until some time after William disappeared. Note that Heather savage reported seeing tail lights on the Thursday night around 9pm, which would coincide with the fosters arrival. But she didn't identify the vehicle.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

William's scent was not detected off the property. William was not found despite extensive and immediate ground search. William was only 3, not a wanderer, may have been barefoot. William was only out of sight for 5-10 minutes. Hence, William must have been removed by vehicle, as he couldn't have got out of range of the search on foot only.
Very few vehicles travel in that end of the street. Crabb's can hear vehicles from their back yard. They only heard one vehicle, around 10am (approximate time - it was definitely after 9:40 when they returned home and before 10:30 when FF came to see them). (I think Mr Crabb and Mrs Crabb each reported hearing a car, but their estimated times differed slightly).


Other neighbours were coming and going but no suspicious cars were observed in this time period.

One vehicle known to have left the property and returned is FGM car driven by FM.
Truck driver will presumably confirm seeing FM car on BCR.

Conclusion - the only car which can be identified leaving the house is the FGM car, so that is most likely the way William left the property.

FM said she was looking for William in the garden when she received the text from FF 'Home in 5' (original police statement Sep 2014). If the time of the drive is before FF return home, then the drive was made before FM started looking for William. So the drive was not 'looking for William'.

Balance of probability says it was the FM drive which removed William from the property.

All the above is based on fact and logic.
The reasons for the drive are now speculation.

Sound deductive reasoning. The problem with this sort of testimony is you can create a sound hypothesis but it still remains a hypothesis because there can be enumerate reasons why they just may NOT have heard a car once. Distracted..Were in different part of house... to name 2. Balance of probabilities is the correct answer..that factors in the lower probability of alternative for a car nor heard. So yes.

10.08 to 10.13 is determined time car was heard..that is consistent with my calculated heat on grill not on bonnett though ......Rowley I said was 10.10. Children heard playing approx 9.15 last POL. Collapsed..found. driven away at 10.10.. 3 min drive...Soooo to be consistent with theory, the truck driver would need to testify he saw her in car at Cobb & co at approx 10.15. give or take several minutes either side..

 

[Lady O]

I can’t find it, but I always thought Mr Crabbe heard the vehicle around 9:30 but Mrs Crabbe around 10:00.

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

 

[31550]

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

The Crabb's had a regular morning exercise routine, so there is some accuracy in their timing. Also it was their habit to have morning tea out on their verandah after their walk, which is how they would hear children or cars. Presumably more difficult to hear from inside the house. Narrows down the time window - when were they outside?
It is clearly well before 10.30 when FF went to see them otherwise they would have said, "Oh we just heard the postie, maybe she saw something?"

 

[LRitz]

Yes we do. Phone records attached to his and FM police statement. He was working in the morning and called FM to let her know he was going to finish early, so his phone would have been pinging in Sydney. How did he get up to Kendall and back to Sydney in time to pick up FM and the kids around 3pm?

PS: I think an explanation is that Savage possibly became confused about which day he saw the FF "Landrover" in FGM driveway. It would have been there on the Friday and Saturday. I don't think Savage was interviewed formally until some time after William disappeared. Note that Heather savage reported seeing tail lights on the Thursday night around 9pm, which would coincide with the fosters arrival. But she didn't identify the vehicle.

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

 

[31550]

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

I think this is a bit of a red herring. When did Savage say this and what exactly was he asked? Possibly they had another car but what difference does it make? It was the new FF car they drove to Kendall, not any other vehicle and they were all in McDonald's together. So they couldn't have got another vehicle to Kendall in that time window.

 

[LRitz]

He said some time soon after they came home and she said a bit later than that. So any time between 9.30am and 10.10am.

Could be the first is leaving and the second is returning. So she is away for approximately 20 minutes.

 

[LRitz]

I think this is a bit of a red herring. When did Savage say this and what exactly was he asked? Possibly they had another car but what difference does it make? It was the new FF car they drove to Kendall, not any other vehicle and they were all in McDonald's together. So they couldn't have got another vehicle to Kendall in that time window.

i can not see any reason for Paul Savage to make up this story. Was he correct with the time and date, maybe not. But we believe other neighbours, so why not him? So who visited FGM in a fancy 4WD?
OK crazy idea. FF doubles back and meets FM on her way up. They all get into Land Rover and leave a car that they pick up on the return trip to Sydney. Did the follow evidence of the drive from Sydney. Or did they say , preschool, cats, CCTV McDonalds all fit in. McDonalds was certainly an important stop for their narrative. Nothing to see here.

Was FF seen at the preschool?

 

[31550]

i can not see any reason for Paul Savage to make up this story. Was he correct with the time and date, maybe not. But we believe other neighbours, so why not him? So who visited FGM in a fancy 4WD?
OK crazy idea. FF doubles back and meets FM on her way up. They all get into Land Rover and leave a car that they pick up on the return trip to Sydney. Did the follow evidence of the drive from Sydney. Or did they say , preschool, cats, CCTV McDonalds all fit in. McDonalds was certainly an important stop for their narrative. Nothing to see here.

Was FF seen at the preschool?

Not saying Savage made anything up. I just believe this comment may have been made quite a long time after the event (possibly when Jubelin was trying to set him up). By then Paul's memory may have been clouded. He was old, had lost his wife, and now was being falsely accused of abducting a 3YO boy. It may have just been an honest mistake about the time or the day. Really think this is a red herring. Can't see any evidence for the fosters having two cars in Kendall. Where did the second one go, and how did its driver get back to the FGM house without it?

 

[LRitz]

Not saying Savage made anything up. I just believe this comment may have been made quite a long time after the event (possibly when Jubelin was trying to set him up). By then Paul's memory may have been clouded. He was old, had lost his wife, and now was being falsely accused of abducting a 3YO boy. It may have just been an honest mistake about the time or the day. Really think this is a red herring. Can't see any evidence for the fosters having two cars in Kendall. Where did the second one go, and how did its driver get back to the FGM house without it?

Maybe swapped cars near McDonalds. All arrive at McDonalds in one car. Collect the other car at a later time on their return trip to Sydney. As I said, sounds pretty unlikely. But hiding a body, and then moving it without detection or any evidence, IMO unlikely or impossible.

 

[Awakening]

Paul Savage would have seen lots of vehicles after Friday morning and all linked to the search. But what he is saying is he saw a "Land Rover" (pretty specific and fancy car) "visiting" FGM before Friday. FGM may not have many visitors and he just wondered who the visitor was. He would not have thought it was suspicious, but unusual enough to remember. Maybe it was earlier in the week. If it was someone else on Thursday the FGM did not mention a visitor. Do we know who picked up the kids from preschool? Do they have second car?

Interesting theory and a distraction from exif data.

One consideration is that the late FGF had such a vehicle that hadn’t been sold yet. Although you’d think the neighbours would be aware of that.

You could try seeing if any such vehicles were sold between September and December?

 

[31550]

Maybe swapped cars near McDonalds. All arrive at McDonalds in one car. Collect the other car at a later time on their return trip to Sydney. As I said, sounds pretty unlikely. But hiding a body, and then moving it without detection or any evidence, IMO unlikely or impossible.

Not 100% sure but there is likely CCTV on the highway which would confirm the entire drive being done in the FF car as stated.

For a second car to be in play, they would have had to transport the cats in the other car, go to daycare in the other car, and then transfer the kids and all their luggage including bikes from the other car to the FF car at McDonalds, where there is CCTV in the car park. And nobody noticed any of this? At the cattery and day care. And how did FF do his job that morning if he was driving from Kendall to McDonalds? Where is the second car now? How did it move from FGM house without anyone seeing, and how did its driver get back to FGM house?

On the other hand, nobody except the truck driver saw the FM drive to the riding school and back, so moving a body from FGM house in the drive could have easily been done with nobody seeing. The drive may have been further up Batar Creek Rd than we are led to believe - in 10 minutes you could reach the end of the road where there is deep forest which AFAIK has never been searched. OR a secondary person may have moved the body from the riding school to another location. FF has no alibi for early Friday morning.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The comment by FM to AMS at start of search was Incriminating..something along the lines....
"He's either hit his head and cant hear me or someone has taken him".

I know a few are speculating whether it was more than an accident. A full blooded smack across the head could possibly perforate an eardrum.

But they were entirely happy that day we are repeatedly told

 

[31550]

The comment by FM to AMS at start of search was Incriminating..something along the lines....
"He's either hit his head and cant hear me or someone has taken him".

I know a few are speculating whether it was more than an accident. A full blooded smack across the head could possibly perforate an eardrum.

But they were entirely happy that day we are repeatedly told

A genuine accident requires no moving of the body, certainly no drive to BCR. So if something happened to William at the house IMO it was more than an accident. But police have no proof so are making no such allegation.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

A genuine accident requires no moving of the body, certainly no drive to BCR. So if something happened to William at the house IMO it was more than an accident. But police have no proof so are making no such allegation.

I conceive that an accident with negligence involved would also be possible.. examples might be chasing to discipline and he jumps off balcony. Or a car hit by FF not reported because he seemed ok but then collapsed.

 

[LRitz]

Not 100% sure but there is likely CCTV on the highway which would confirm the entire drive being done in the FF car as stated.

For a second car to be in play, they would have had to transport the cats in the other car, go to daycare in the other car, and then transfer the kids and all their luggage including bikes from the other car to the FF car at McDonalds, where there is CCTV in the car park. And nobody noticed any of this? At the cattery and day care. And how did FF do his job that morning if he was driving from Kendall to McDonalds? Where is the second car now? How did it move from FGM house without anyone seeing, and how did its driver get back to FGM house?

On the other hand, nobody except the truck driver saw the FM drive to the riding school and back, so moving a body from FGM house in the drive could have easily been done with nobody seeing. The drive may have been further up Batar Creek Rd than we are led to believe - in 10 minutes you could reach the end of the road where there is deep forest which AFAIK has never been searched. OR a secondary person may have moved the body from the riding school to another location. FF has no alibi for early Friday morning.

CCTV may not have been checked for the Thursday Sydney drive. there was no need and they are not suspects at this point.
Land Rover could have already been packed with luggage bikes ( and that new shovel, no doubt bought with cash).
Transfer near Mcdonalds, not at McDonalds. Any witnesses to see him at work ? Or just phone calls? Again I am not saying this is likely.

A "secondary person"?
I'm just saying the concussion without death, or hiding and moving a body, no sign of an accident at the house is pretty fanciful as well. The whole idea of hiding these events without getting caught is very unlikely. Yet the theory is the FM (mostly on her own) decides she can get away this. If she makes one slip up she is facing charges, manslaughter or worse. Forget the problem of keeping the daughter. So I am amazed FM was able to do all this. Unless there was prior planning.

 

[31550]

CCTV may not have been checked for the Thursday Sydney drive. there was no need and they are not suspects at this point.
Land Rover could have already been packed with luggage bikes ( and that new shovel, no doubt bought with cash).
Transfer near Mcdonalds, not at McDonalds. Any witnesses to see him at work ? Or just phone calls? Again I am not saying this is likely.

A "secondary person"?
I'm just saying the concussion without death, or hiding and moving a body, no sign of an accident at the house is pretty fanciful as well. The whole idea of hiding these events without getting caught is very unlikely. Yet the theory is the FM (mostly on her own) decides she can get away this. If she makes one slip up she is facing charges, manslaughter or worse. Forget the problem of keeping the daughter. So I am amazed FM was able to do all this. Unless there was prior planning.

I don't think what I am suggesting is more fanciful than a predetermined conspiracy by two foster parents (and possibly others) to get rid of a 3YO boy for no apparent reason.

 

[DropBearess]

I wonder if we will ever hear testimony from William's pre-school and child-care staff? They were a significant presence in William's short life and saw more of William than the FPs did most week days. They were all mandatory reporters. There are so many questions l would like to ask.

* Was William ever reluctant to go home with his carers? What was his attitude when SD arrived to collect him?

* Did they ever notice or document his apparent weight loss after his Bali holiday? What were his eating habits? Did he bring adequate food?

* William was reported to be "head-shy" early in the investigation. Did they observe this?

* How did he interact with other children? Was he overbearing, passive, violent or demanding? Was he overly compliant with staff?

* What were his favourite topics of conversation and which FP did he prefer to talk about?

* Was he appropriately dressed each day? Did he ever wear costumes at times or for extended periods?

* Did he ever present with unexplained bruising or evidence of neglect other than the black eye?

* Was he developmentally delayed? How were his problem-solving skills? Was he comfortable asking for assistance when necessary?

* Was he frequently sad or was he bubbly and optimistic? How did he express his feelings?

My entire career has involved child and vulnerable adult protection, working with families and professional stakeholders at a high level over 40 years. Documentations of William's early childhood are crucial; particularly essential as he was a foster child. Where are these documents? Have they been taken into evidence? As expected, they will be guarded by the Dept like Fort Knox, but must surely be subpoenaed in closed court if every aspect of William's short life matters.

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