Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above initials. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[Earls Smother]

I have a question (maybe silly so bare with me but you don’t learn if you don’t ask)
as far as we know there’s no forensic evidence.
If a piece of material such as a drop sheet, piece of clothing was found but had no DNA, etc on it, would this be classed as forensic evidence?

If the drop sheet was from the FGM's garage, it would be highly incriminating, but not forensic evidence unless it had DNA, blood etc. on it.

If the clothing was Williams, it would have his DNA on it and she would be gone. A spiderman suit with no DNA would again be very incriminating, but not directly forensic evidence.

You can have direct evidence that is not forensic in nature.

 

[Underarrest_]

If the drop sheet was from the FGM's garage, it would be highly incriminating, but not forensic evidence unless it had DNA, blood etc. on it.

If the clothing was Williams, it would have his DNA on it and she would be gone. A spiderman suit with no DNA would again be very incriminating, but not directly forensic evidence.

You can have direct evidence that is not forensic in nature.

Thank you,
I’m thinking if they can link something like a piece of drop sheet or a piece of clothing (even a different piece of clothing maybe seen in photos of William) back to FM, this could be incriminating.
I just can’t get my head around why police theory is that William was placed in this area.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

IF she did that (or similiar type spot) there would have been absolutely no time to hide the body. She would have had scratches everywhere and torn clothing if she went into the actual bush. She certainly couldn't have buried him.

All the locals know what has happened and so does 90% of the rest of Australia. Anyone driving a 4-wheel drive down there, or walking a dog etc. would have one eye out for suspicious signs IMO.

It actually wouldn't be that difficult for police to search every track within a 20 minute radius with 4-wheel drives. Especially with assistance from the SES. Would be time consuming, but doable.

He would have been found IMO.

FGM car isn't 4WD. The FF car was out of the picture until after 10.30. A 4 WD anyway can't be made at speed.. I suspect a bush track would take longer so perhaps not outside search area.

Difficulty navigating bush is dependent upon what type of bush....if it's Lantana then impossible. If other it's possible

 

[LRitz]

Anyone looking at that map and thinking "the FF left via the dirt road" is not looking in the right place.

The car would have been covered in incriminating dirt/dust if he had done that. If he'd been through a subsequent car wash, that would have been a very telltale sign as well.

Sorry but have to disagree.
This has been previously discussed. It seems the dirt road is not that bad. Dust and mud would probably depend on the weather or wet conditions. Mud would be worse than dust IMO. FF had the extra 10 - 15 minutes on his drive from the Tennis Club to Lakewood to stop and clean off car and windscreens. The car was not forensically examined for years. As far as I know, no one saw his drive down Benaroon Dr,

There are TWO exits from Benaroon drive . Why ignore one.

 

[Earls Smother]

Sorry but have to disagree.
This has been previously discussed. It seems the dirt road is not that bad. Dust and mud would probably depend on the weather or wet conditions. Mud would be worse than dust IMO. FF had the extra 10 - 15 minutes on his drive from the Tennis Club to Lakewood to stop and clean off car and windscreens. The car was not forensically examined for years. As far as I know, no one saw his drive down Benaroon Dr,

There are to exits from Benaroon drive . Why ignore one.

The 9:37 photo makes this impossible though? They have evidence he was where he said he was, at times that make it not possible for him to do what you are saying.

 

[zedx]

If the drop sheet was from the FGM's garage, it would be highly incriminating, but not forensic evidence unless it had DNA, blood etc. on it.

If the clothing was Williams, it would have his DNA on it and she would be gone. A spiderman suit with no DNA would again be very incriminating, but not directly forensic evidence.

You can have direct evidence that is not forensic in nature.

IMO If 'a spiderman' outfit was found anywhere other than where she supposedly drove that day, it would have to have the FM DNA on it to put her in the picture, WT's DNA on it would not be enough to incriminate FM.

 

[Earls Smother]

IMO If 'a spiderman' outfit was found anywhere other than where she supposedly drove that day, it would have to have the FM DNA on it to put her in the picture, WT's DNA on it would not be enough to incriminate FM.

Good point.

 

[zedx]

The more I think about it the more Im thinking the FM's drive is a red herring. The drive was too far for him to walk to.

 

[Earls Smother]

The more I think about it the more Im thinking the FM's drive is a red herring. The drive was too far for him to walk to.

To cover what?

It was absolutely too far, but nothing she did was particularly rational.

 

[Underarrest_]

IMO If 'a spiderman' outfit was found anywhere other than where she supposedly drove that day, it would have to have the FM DNA on it to put her in the picture, WT's DNA on it would not be enough to incriminate FM.

I’m thinking maybe totally different material/clothing found (DNA etc lost after time) that can be connected back to William or FM through photos, witnesses.
Maybe William wasn’t in what FM has given a full description of what he was wearing.

 

[Wallace52]

The more I think about it the more Im thinking the FM's drive is a red herring. The drive was too far for him to walk to.

The police might have phone data that suggests a location and time for the drive?

IMO

 

[truecrimepath]

Yes and that is why she is currently a major POI. Her versions are erratic and inconsistent, even her husband would acknowledge that.

What benefit does she gain by saying she drove if she didn't? It is odd to forget it, I agree.

Everything about her behaviour says she doesn't cope very well under stress/pressure. She is either a brilliant actress or we accept at face value that is her personality.

Devil's advocate: She says she drove because she feels like someone might have seen her. She lies about where she drove and hid the body somewhere else. That really has to be the scenario for those in the guilty corner.

So she has very little time to have done this. She can't have hidden him very well, or she'd be scratched to pieces by the dense bush. Thorough searches were conducted over a wide area. Numerous locals and others would have done bush walks and 4 wheel drives along every track in that forest. The waterways were all searched.

She also would have had to load him in the car without leaving a single sign of doing so. No cadaver scent in car. Drop sheet irrelevant IMO - even if she wrapped him in one, how does that make him harder to find? She couldn't possibly have dug a hole big enough or quickly enough to have him never found.

So where is he if she is responsible?

The FGM statement does not include a drive either. She describes William going missing at 10.30. She clearly stated that FM was speaking to a neighbour before coming inside and calling the police. She says nothing about the FF at all. The problem with all this is we know the car was driven, we just do not know when or where to.
Given we are told the Crabb’s evidence is reliable. Then the car heard by them as late 10.10am is likely to be the FGM car returning from an undisclosed trip.

The FGM statement and walkthrough points to a concocted storyline by the FM. They did not have the time or opportunity to get ‘their thoughts together “ as you would like to say. Dan box says they didn’t have time to create matching statements, but then does not acknowledge the statements in fact don’t match.

 

[LRitz]

Umm, the balcony theory just won’t work for me … more so if William was being chased ( possibly if he was playing and trying to be Spider-Man, resulting in a fall - but I think he was a bit young for that enactment)

I did have a moment or two where I wondered if he fell out of that tree that was ‘too high mummy’

And I can definitely see William going looking for ‘daddy’. ….was there mention of FM saying ’ look for daddy’ etc. ? But I think FF timeline has been proven, meaning he didn’t come home early and go again, so all this happened before he got home imo.

Have always been a bit intrigued about the mention of William deliberately crashing his bike into the garden ( imo a just turned 3 yr old going down that driveway would definitely crash their bike!) What time was that
Am I correct in envisioning that garden bed was Rock bordered and formed a retainer wall which had a serious drop below on other side ?

I wonder why police are focused on the balcony ?

Wasn’t the bike riding the same occasion when L was said to question the ‘red neck’ going past in green car - maybe that’s the vehicle the Crabbe’s heard - or was this a figment of FM’s imagination ?

So did the kids ride their bikes before or after breakfast ?

So many unknowns ..

I don't think there has been any evidence of fall from balcony or an accident. No proof. IMO there was no accident at the location of FGM's house.

As far as the bike ride. Again, No evidence or witness. This was not in FM's first statement. This was not in FGM's walkthrough which, IMO, did not allow a time for Bike Ride. I don't think the kids would be out riding bikes before breakfast. Allegedly FGM was watching the kids on their bikes, but she does NOT mention this, though she remembers the orange juice. FGM says they finished breakfast at 9:00 and then she did the dishes and FM played with kids until about 9:30. (If she did go out she was still in her slippers )

As for "..William deliberately crashing his bike into the garden." This is confusing. Was it added to the bike ride narrative to make it sound more convincing? Or was there some other damage to the garden that they needed to explain. Or did the bike ride need to get added later by FM when she became aware that the police dogs had pinned the last scent of William on the drive way, and her narratives had him climbing trees but not playing on the drive way. Maybe, the police even prompted FM in their initial questioning, they could have asked her if William had been on the driveway that morning. Remember she is not a prime suspect at this stage .Why would he play on the drive way ??? Not a good place to play with cars coming and going. Answer: Oh I just remembered, .... he was riding his bike .

Any way, I don't think the bike ride happened at all. Either way is not going be significant to solving what happened to William that Friday.

Photo below caption says FM markings where they were on driveway just after 9:00 am. No mention of bikes, but some newspaper reports not 100% accurate. I don't know what the numbers mean. I guess that 1 and 2 are William and FD on bikes. 3 and 4 are FM and FGM.
and

 

[truecrimepath]

The police might have phone data that suggests a location and time for the drive?

IMO

I looked at the tower locations and it would be hard to triangulate. The closest phone tower is between Kew and Lakewood. Not many others at all. We don’t actually know whether she took her phone btw.

 

[truecrimepath]

I don't think there has been any evidence of fall from balcony or an accident. No proof. IMO there was no accident at the location of FGM's house.

As far as the bike ride. Again, No evidence or witness. This was not in FM's first statement. This was not in FGM's walkthrough which, IMO, did not allow a time for Bike Ride. I don't think the kids would be out riding bikes before breakfast. Allegedly FGM was watching the kids on their bikes, but she does mention this, though she remembers the orange juice. FGM says they finished breakfast at 9:00 and then she did the dishes and FM played with kids until about 9:30. (If she did go out she was still in her slippers )

As for "..William deliberately crashing his bike into the garden." This is confusing. Was it added to the bike ride narrative to make it sound more convincing? Or was there some other damage to the garden that they needed to explain. Or did the bike ride need to get added later by FM when she became aware that the police dogs had pinned the last scent of William on the drive way, and her narratives had him climbing trees but not playing on the drive way. Maybe, the police even prompted FM in their initial questioning, they could have asked her if William had been on the driveway that morning. Remember she is not a prime suspect at this stage .Why would he play on the drive way ??? Not a good place to play with cars coming and going. Answer: Oh I just remembered, .... he was riding his bike .

Any way, I don't think the bike ride happened at all. Either way is not going be significant to solving what happened to William that Friday.

Photo below caption says FM markings where they were on driveway just after 9:00 am. No mention of bikes, but some newspaper reports not 100% accurate. I don't know what the numbers mean. I guess that 1 and 2 are William and FD on bikes. 3 and 4 are FM and FGM.
View attachment 2163478 and

It’s surprising the savages did not see them there either. Direct view.

 

[truecrimepath]

The more I think about it the more Im thinking the FM's drive is a red herring. The drive was too far for him to walk to.

Do you mean Red Herring or Deliberate Deception?

 

[Earls Smother]

The FGM statement does not include a drive either. She describes William going missing at 10.30. She clearly stated that FM was speaking to a neighbour before coming inside and calling the police. She says nothing about the FF at all. The problem with all this is we know the car was driven, we just do not know when or where to.
Given we are told the Crabb’s evidence is reliable. Then the car heard by them as late 10.10am is likely to be the FGM car returning from an undisclosed trip.

The FGM statement and walkthrough points to a concocted storyline by the FM. They did not have the time or opportunity to get ‘their thoughts together “ as you would like to say. Dan box says they didn’t have time to create matching statements, but then does not acknowledge the statements in fact don’t match.

It really doesn't matter how we interpret it all after a decade.

The police know there are inconsistencies, but certain things will be accepted as fact. Working from there, the options of disposal of a body are limited by time and means.

He's either very close by, or he has been driven offsite in a known vehicle by a known person (ignoring abduction at this point). To do that, and a) not have the body found, b) have no witness see anything incriminating, and c) leave not one shred of any evidence whatsoever, is mind-boggling to me. To the point where it can't have happened.

If she can make that drive without anyone noticing (which even the police seem to accept she did), then how can there be so much doubt on someone else driving up Benaroon unnoticed? That is totally illogical.

 

[LRitz]

The 9:37 photo makes this impossible though? They have evidence he was where he said he was, at times that make it not possible for him to do what you are saying.

Yes, if the photo was at 9:37. Lots of views about the photo. I am still keeping an open mind. I don't know if there have been many photos that have been accepted as evidence in court. Even CCTV etc can be tampered with.

Many of the other suggestions of what happened seem improbable or have such a degree of difficulty are hard to believe. I know lots will disagree and understand the arguments. ( So no need to reply 31550 )

 

[truecrimepath]

IMO If 'a spiderman' outfit was found anywhere other than where she supposedly drove that day, it would have to have the FM DNA on it to put her in the picture, WT's DNA on it would not be enough to incriminate FM.

This is the issue. The police did not lockdown the investigation. The house in Sydney was not searched, quickly enough. Think about, what if they found the shoes and Spider-Man suit in Sydney?

 

[truecrimepath]

Yes, if the photo was at 9:37. Lots of views about the photo. I am still keeping an open mind. I don't know if there have been many photos that have been accepted as evidence in court. Even CCTV etc can be tampered with.

Many of the other suggestions of what happened seem improbable or have such a degree of difficulty are hard to believe. I know lots will disagree and understand the arguments. ( So no need to reply 31550 )

I am relieved someone else has doubts about the 9.37 photos.

 

[jason_recliner]

The police have little to nothing. Otherwise, * the FM would have been charged already. After this long and this much public interest they would prosecute with the bare minimum required to potentially convict and take their chances. There aren't many plausible reasons why there is little to no evidence * FM is guilty.

 

[LRitz]

The FGM statement and walkthrough points to a concocted storyline by the FM. They did not have the time or opportunity to get ‘their thoughts together “ as you would like to say. Dan box says they didn’t have time to create matching statements, but then does not acknowledge the statements in fact don’t match.

All FGM and FM and FF stories are concocted, IMO. I would put little weight on anything they say - in fact in most cases, just think the opposite.

The planned matching storyline was, as they say, keep it simple.
FF leaves around 9:00.
Then the kids finish breakfast with FGM. FF is "definitely" not there according to FGM. (reinforce FF's alibi)
~9:10 FM plays outside with just William. FD stays inside with FGM. FGM does the breakfast dishes. (No bike riding mentioned initially.) Then FD goes outside as well to play with FM.
9:30 all on back deck drawing and playing dice. (No mention of cups of tea initially)
9:30 FF work call scheduled. FF at Lakewood
~9:30 FM get camera and takes photos. Roaring Lion
~10:10 to 10:15, William runs around playing Tigers and runs to the front of the house
Around 5 minutes later FM looks for William at the front of the house and then in the house
~ 10:30 FF returns and they alert neighbours.

I think, again IMO, they did have a matching narrative but the devil is in the detail. The spanner(s) in the works threw them off. Some things happened that were not anticipated. The phone call to washing machine repair man was tried to be hidden, but the police checked the phone records. FGM says there are no phone call. This is incorrect. The police dogs found William had been on the driveway, so this had to get added to the story. The drive by FM in FGM's car was added later, and FGM could not go back and change her statement. The FGM walkthrough becomes really vague after William allegedly runs around the side of the house. FGM says everything is a blur.

 

[truecrimepath]

The police have little to nothing. Otherwise, his mum would have been charged already. After this long and this much public interest they would prosecute with the bare minimum required to potentially convict and take their chances. There aren't many plausible reasons why there is little to no evidence * FM is guilty.

I agree they have little to nothing except a bunch of statements that don’t make sense. Not enough to charge them with anything imho.

 

[truecrimepath]

All FGM and FM and FF stories are concocted, IMO. I would put little weight on anything they say - in fact in most cases, just think the opposite.

The planned matching storyline was, as they say, keep it simple.
FF leaves around 9:00.
Then the kids finish breakfast with FGM. FF is "definitely" not there according to FGM. (reinforce FF's alibi)
~9:10 FM plays outside with just William. FD stays inside with FGM. FGM does the breakfast dishes. (No bike riding mentioned initially.) Then FD goes outside as well to play with FM.
9:30 all on back deck drawing and playing dice. (No mention of cups of tea initially)
9:30 FF work call scheduled. FF at Lakewood
~9:30 FM get camera and takes photos. Roaring Lion
~10:10 to 10:15, William runs around playing Tigers and runs to the front of the house
Around 5 minutes later FM looks for William at the front of the house and then in the house
~ 10:30 FF returns and they alert neighbours.

I think, again IMO, they did have a matching narrative but the devil is in the detail. The spanner(s) in the works threw them off. Some things happened that were not anticipated. The phone call to washing machine repair man was tried to be hidden, but the police checked the phone records. FGM says there are no phone call. This is incorrect. The police dogs found William had been on the driveway, so this had to get added to the story. The drive by FM in FGM's car was added later, and FGM could not go back and change her statement. The FGM walkthrough becomes really vague after William allegedly runs around the side of the house. FGM says everything is a blur.

William would have got out of the car the night before and walked on the driveway. Not sure the dogs add much.

 

[Kurve]

I have a question (maybe silly so bare with me but you don’t learn if you don’t ask)
as far as we know there’s no forensic evidence.
If a piece of material such as a drop sheet, piece of clothing was found but had no DNA, etc on it, would this be classed as forensic evidence?

They might have found fibres from a drop cloth in the FGMs car, it may be as simple as that.