Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[Earls Smother]

A known fact is that dogs didn't track him off the property. Admitted by police. Another known fact is there were literally hundreds of people there searching. He was only 3. If he wandered why wasn't he found? if he wandered and was abducted then it raises the question of what opportunity did a opportunist have? Very few cars go into and out of the street. A traffic analysis was provided by Stormbird with numbers. The occasional car but otherwise people that live there. The occasional one that has a reason like Spedding. Did a neighbour take him? But all houses were searched. Did a neighbour grab him and then drive off? Background checks.

And why did he wander? was he looking for FF? Why? Why wasn't he seen in the street by neighbours? There were some at various times.

Not fact.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

I suppose I can only comment from personal experience.

My mum had dementia and died from it. In the early years, my sister and I knew something wasn't right. We'd take her to be assessed and she'd pass the "tests". So officially she didn't have dementia, but she was not the same person.

In short, people can be affected way before official diagnosis. They say many, many years earlier the decline can begin. It won't be consistent either, at times they'll be fine. Do I know she was affected when WT went missing - No. Could an elderly woman have had some degree of cognitive decline, that was exacerbated by stress? Quite possibly, but it doesn't really matter - her statements were erratic and unreliable.

I totally agree, just after a source that confirms, if it has / was confirmed.

 

[InTheBleachers]

That's not malice.

Same as what happened to Bill Spedding.

 

[Earls Smother]

I wasn't in court on the Monday when these were stated by Mt Craddock in his opening, unfortunately.

We don't even know if these were the only things stated as certain, there could have been more things he said as well?

I definitely saw a list. There was no more than 5 things on it.

9.37 photo
FF text
Facebook stuff
000 call

Also some more general stuff, like no witness sighting of how William left the property. No body having been located. More like facts of what has not happened if you like.

 

[31550]

Some neighbours were out and about, like the woman who was running a different track she would normally be on and further away from Benaroon Drive for example.

Just my interpretation of what I've read and which could be right off because I wasn't there.

Sorry for being dumb, but I'm still not sure where this leads us. Can you fill in the gaps? Where does the FB post fit in the timeline?
Like, did a neighbour post something on FB( text or photo) which is relevant (e.g. a photo of FM or FGM or FF or the car or even William) or a post relating to William at an incongruous time (e.g. before he was reported missing)?

I know Lydene H posted on Facebook later in the day to rally people to look for William, but surely that adds nothing to the established timeline?

 

[31550]

Same as what happened to Bill Spedding.

Except the recording of Spedding was illegal. Crossed the line. Jubelin gone. This has not been shown to be the case with FM to my knowledge.


Late Edit. Should have said Savage not Spedding.

 

[LRitz]

This is something I have seen repeated & repeated as fact. Is there any evidence that the FGM had dementia at the time William went missing? I think by the time the inquest started, she may have been experiencing signs of dementia, she was not called as a witness that I know of. I guess she could have been in a closed court session?

There are several things in the FGM video that are not correct IMO

Like she was down on the road talking to Anne Marie before the FM called police. Anne Marie never said she talked to the FGM in her testimony ( I think this may have happened much later, if it happened ) Also she says the FF was not there that morning when she got up, he was, he just didn't have breakfast with them all IMO.

The FGM also says that the FF arrived when she was walking back up ( after supposedly talking to Anne Marie ) & that somehow he already knew.

Her times are way off IMO

Agree totally.
And what were FGM's signs of dementia later on? There is no test for dementia. Did FGM get a sick note from friendly GP to say she is elderly and forgetful (not exactly dementia) and not up to going to the inquest. Why put her through all the stress etc. She has made statements. She is not a suspect.

I think some people would have been very relieved not to have FGM questioned on the stand, again IMO.

 

[Earls Smother]

Here is a post I made earlier Earls Smother

Yeah that's it. I was missing the time of arrival of the first police officer.

Thanks, I thought I'd imagined it.

 

[31550]

Not fact.

It is a fact that the dog handler testified that the dogs did not detect William's scent off the property.

Contents of podcasts are not facts. They are just what the podcaster says, not necessarily the truth. Please don't present them as such.

Similarly, video and audio recordings of a witness proves only that the witness said what they said, not that it is true.

 

[BFew]

Contents of podcasts are not facts. They are just what the podcaster says, not necessarily the truth. Please don't present them as such.

So that also applies to the timestamp on the photos that the podcast alleged were a fact from Monday in the Coroners Court last week.

And seeing as how it appears that no active posters in this thread were actually in the inquest on Monday last week, the actual time of the Spiderman photos is back in play?

 

[Kurve]

Same as what happened to Bill Spedding.

Not really, Bill Spedding had a rock solid alibi. Spedding should never have been subjected to what the cops put him through.

It's in part what happened to Spedding that has me thinking the cops aren't going to risk something like that happening again, they're confident they have the right person in their sights this time. Whether they can prove it or not is the question.

 

[LRitz]

Sniffer dog evidence notwithstanding, it's a fair distance from FGM house down to BCR.
Google Maps has it as an 8 minute walk (presumably for an adult).
William is little more than 3 Years Old, small for his age, suffers from asthma, is reportedly not a wanderer, is not familiar with the territory, and would probably be distracted by the bush surroundings rather than be heading directly and deliberately towards the main road.
We have already discussed how unlikely it is for random traffic to enter Benaroon Drive. It goes nowhere.
Nobody saw William leave FGM house. FM said he was gone "5 minutes, maybe 10".

How does William get far enough away from the house that he is never seen again if he is on foot?
The bush is very thick, and the immediate area was searched intensively from Day 1, and he was wearing bright blue/red clothing. The only easy exit route is down Benaroon Drive.

Agree. it would be unlikely William could get very far on foot. Not as far as Cobb and Co in that time frame. IMO.
He allegedly ran around the side of the house and then allegedly the FM thought he could be looking for FF to arrive back. William arrived at FGM house in the dark the previous evening. As you say he would not be familiar with the territory. He would have no idea which direction the FF would arriving from. So, IMO, a child waiting would wait at the house somewhere near the driveway. But FM decided to search in her car much further afield.

 

[Wallace52]

Allegedly in this recording FF could be heard claiming that the girl had ruined the lives of both he and his wife.

So how exactly did FF think that FD had ruined their lives? It is more than saying you are misbehaving or not doing as you are told. Ruined their lives!
If it was so terrible why did they continue to foster a child if it was misery for them and no doubt misery for the child.

That is why I am thinking maybe the FF was told by the FM was the foster daughter’s fault.

How else would he could have possibly thought the little girl could have ruined their lives?

 

[Wallace52]

Not really, Bill Spedding had a rock solid alibi. Spedding should never have been subjected to what the cops put him through.

It's in part what happened to Spedding that has me thinking the cops aren't going to risk something like that happening again, they're confident they have the right person in their sights this time. Whether they can prove it or not is the question.

That’s why I keep going back to the foster mother’s alibi.

Where was she when William went missing? Can anyone vouch for her whereabouts?

 

[LRitz]

I suppose I can only comment from personal experience.

My mum had dementia and died from it. In the early years, my sister and I knew something wasn't right. We'd take her to be assessed and she'd pass the "tests". So officially she didn't have dementia, but she was not the same person.

In short, people can be affected way before official diagnosis. They say many, many years earlier the decline can begin. It won't be consistent either, at times they'll be fine. Do I know she was affected when WT went missing - No. Could an elderly woman have had some degree of cognitive decline, that was exacerbated by stress? Quite possibly, but it doesn't really matter - her statements were erratic and unreliable.

Yes agree, her statements were erratic and unreliable. (Motte)

But where they considered "erratic" just because they differed from the alleged version of the FM and FF. Maybe FGM was correct and FF and FM were wrong. (Departure time of FF).
Was she being evasive in some of her answers.
Were some of her answers rehearsed. (FF definitely not at breakfast. list of what they ate for breakfast.)

You can not assume she had dementia. There is evidence against dementia at this time. You can not assume dementia was the cause of her answers. (Bailey)

Motte-and- Bailey again.

 

[31550]

So that also applies to the timestamp on the photos that the podcast alleged were a fact from Monday in the Coroners Court last week.

And seeing as how it appears that no active posters in this thread were actually in the inquest on Monday last week, the actual time of the Spiderman photos is back in play?

Not sure how seriously to take this. I don't decide what is a fact and what isn't. Facts are self-evident.
So using the photos as an example:

• The veracity of the 9:37 time on the photos is not a fact.
• That Craddock accepts 9:37 as the time of the photos IS a fact.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Not fact.

Yes it is. The police gave an interview where they admitted there was no tracking off the property. Media reported it too

You surmise that they then took Gov to locations further afield to then try to pick up the scent again

 

[Kurve]

Except the recording of Spedding was illegal. Crossed the line. Jubelin gone. This has not been shown to be the case with FM to my knowledge.

You might mean Paul Savage here.

I'll never be convinced either the reason Jubelin was forced out/fired was because of an off-books recording.

 

[Earls Smother]

It is a fact that the dog handler testified that the dogs did not detect William's scent off the property.

Contents of podcasts are not facts. They are just what the podcaster says, not necessarily the truth. Please don't present them as such.

Similarly, video and audio recordings of a witness proves only that the witness said what they said, not that it is true.

If the podcaster quotes what Craddock said were certainties, I think it's reasonable to assume they are facts.

These are Craddock's certainties, not the podcasters.

 

[alwaysintrigued]

So that also applies to the timestamp on the photos that the podcast alleged were a fact from Monday in the Coroners Court last week.

And seeing as how it appears that no active posters in this thread were actually in the inquest on Monday last week, the actual time of the Spiderman photos is back in play?

No they are not , it was bought up many times in the FM's NSW Crime Commission hearing that was played on Thursday ( the day you were at ) by Sophie Callan SC, that the time of the last photo was 09:37. Sophie Callan said at different times

eg

SC : "William in this one @ 09:37"
SC : "We accept that as last point of reference"
SC : " Regrettably still trying to work out a timeline. Confidence of photo @ 09:37"
SC : "2016 interview page 55, photo @ 09:37, focus on that time forwards"

Clearly they were working on the 09:37 photo as being correct.

The FM was not asked one question about the time being incorrect, which if they were incorrect, I'm sure she would have been grilled about that too, she wasn't.

The only logic is the last photo was taken @ 09:37.

 

[Earls Smother]

Yes it is. The police gave an interview where they admitted there was no tracking off the property. Media reported it too

You surmise that they then took Gov to locations further afield to then try to pick up the scent again

Ok, fact there was no dog reaction off the property.

You yourself stated 92% accuracy of dogs. 92% is not fact, not even beyond reasonable doubt.

Then you have hundreds of people, plus horses contaminating the scent area. Then the 2 hour delay travelling from Newcastle. That must reduce the ability of the dogs to work at their best.

It is fact there remains doubt as to how William left the property.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Not guilty verdicts for charges that were meant to put the pressure on?

31550 is right. To prove malice you must show that there was no reasonable basis of the charge ......no probable cause. The mere fact that charges were laid and found not guilty doesn't satisfy that criteria. If I recall the judge was satisfied the lie wasn't intentional......was an innocent mistake. That's the other requirement to a successful charge ...mens rea ....guilty mind....she knew she was lying. The judge couldn't conclude that standard was met. No malice. Sorry

 

[zedx]

Yes agree, her statements were erratic and unreliable. (Motte)

But where they considered "erratic" just because they differed from the alleged version of the FM and FF. Maybe FGM was correct and FF and FM were wrong. (Departure time of FF).
Was she being evasive in some of her answers.
Were some of her answers rehearsed. (FF definitely not at breakfast. list of what they ate for breakfast.)

You can not assume she had dementia. There is evidence against dementia at this time. You can not assume dementia was the cause of her answers. (Bailey)

Motte-and- Bailey again.

Dementia needs to be left on the table though, as Earls Smother said just because she had not been diagnosed with dementia it doesnt mean she didnt have it.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Ok, fact there was no dog reaction off the property.

You yourself stated 92% accuracy of dogs. 92% is not fact, not even beyond reasonable doubt.

Then you have hundreds of people, plus horses contaminating the scent area. Then the 2 hour delay travelling from Newcastle. That must reduce the ability of the dogs to work at their best.

It is fact there remains doubt as to how William left the property.

Yes. He might have left on foot, dogs were unable to track him because of polluted scent trail. Did he put his shoes on himself? He was barefoot on the verandah with dirty souls meaning he already had played barefoot in the yard..i don't think he put his shoes on.. How far could he get without them? You then must resolve if he did how can he possibly not be found when there were hundreds looking? If you say he was taken in the street then by whom? The Stormbird traffic analysis says virtually no one goes there other than residents and a few who have reason. No reason for an opportunistic abductor to be there. Then you have neighbours who didn't see him some of whom were out and about....one mowing lawn as example. So maybe a neighbour....but police searched all houses. So maybe a neighbour who immediately used a car. But background checks.

The choice isn't impossible but increasingly becomes unlikely to the alternative. He was taken in THAT car trip his FM said she made

 

[Earls Smother]

Yes. He might have left on foot, dogs were unable to track him because of polluted scent trail. You then must resolve if he did how can he possibly not be found when there were hundreds looking? If you say he was taken in the street then by whom? The Stormbird traffic analysis says virtually no one goes there other than residents and a few who have reason. No reason for an opportunistic abductor to be there. Then you have neighbours who didn't see him some of whom were out and about....one mowing lawn as example. So maybe a neighbour....but police searched all houses. So maybe a neighbour who immediately used a car. But background checks.

The choice isn't impossible but increasingly becomes unlikely to the alternative. He was taken in THAT car trip his FM said she made

Ummmm...

I don't know.