Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 2 * FM guilty of assault & intimidation

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 1

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Suppression orders are in force, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
One even reduced bike riding to - BR

 

[alwaysintrigued]

alwaysintrigued, did Anne Maree alert any neighbours other than Paul Savage at No. 43 before the first police officer arrived at 11:06am? I've read that the man who was mowing the lawn - Shannon at No. 12 - saw that first police car drive past and asked Anne Maree what was going on, but had she talked to other neighbours before that? Thanks again.

From her testimony:

Anne Maree, after coming into first contact with the FM, went down towards Batar Creek Rd as it was the biggest danger. She walked down looking Lt to Rt at each property, walked around bus stop.

FFC pointed to where William went missing from ( FGM's house) Anne Maree went back up Benaroon Drive, went to PS @ # 43, went to Crabbs @ # 51 & saw FFC knocking on # 35's door.

Anne Maree back down Benaroon Drive with FM to Lyndene Heslop's house # 9 ( on corner of Benaroon Drive & Batar Creek Rd ) Saw man on yellow ride on mower, he asked if everything was OK , told little boy in a spider-man suit missing, put his mower away & he & his dogs walked up the street.

Hope that helps

 

[passball]

Did William have a reaction to the scrambled eggs? Asthma?

The FGM pointing to the deck.

'This is where it all happened'

 

[Earls Smother]

No she didn't. She was the only one home. She also said that the FM knocked on the door of #35 ( the FM did not remember this ) and no one answered.

But if the FM couldn't remember this, surely that's an indication she's killed someone?

 

[alwaysintrigued]

FF could have had a burner phone. Possible.
FF received other calls after his work call. I would guess/hope police followed them all up.

Bike riding evidence in 2019! I would think your best recall is closer to the incident rather than 4 years later.
I don't think there was enough time between end of breakfast, the phone call to the repair man, playing with William, hurting her hand, coming back inside to show FGM her hand, then playing spinning monsters etc, and be back on the deck by 9:30. So when was the other possible time for bike ride. The kids have been up early, wouldn't you have breakfast before going outside and playing. So IMO, it is possible there was no bike ride.

I believe they had breakfast before the bike riding.

 

[LRitz]

Did you hear the evidence given by the FM at the inquest?

The FM said they rode the bikes after the FF left, around 9am or shortly after, the Foster Family's car was not there at the time.

They were inside & outside frequently that morning.

I see no reason that the FGM would not walk on concrete in her slippers, arounf the carport & on the driveway.

Why not say this in 2014 in their first statements. So are the first statements totally inaccurate. They had lots off time between Sept 2014 and the inquest to change the story. There is no independent evidence of the kids on bikes.

What did the FGM say at the inquest , or did she not attend.

See my other post about activities, injuries , washing up, phone calls between 9 and 9:30 they were pretty busy. Or did mummy monsters (very specific activity) not happen or was this before breakfast?

What time did FF leave the house? 8:00, or after 9:00 and running late, or 9 ish, or before the Cctv at the tennis club.

 

[Earls Smother]

I'll save you the time
Incorrect, she was talking about a car she saw turn into the Miller's ( nextdoor ) , reverse out & drive off.

But no unknown cars have been down Benaroon ever have they?

 

[alwaysintrigued]

Why not say this in 2014 in their first statements. So are the first statements totally inaccurate. They had lots off time between Sept 2014 and the inquest to change the story. There is no independent evidence of the kids on bikes.

What did the FGM say at the inquest , or did she not attend.

See my other post about activities, injuries , washing up, phone calls between 9 and 9:30 they were pretty busy. Or did mummy monsters (very specific activity) not happen or was this before breakfast?

What time did FF leave the house? 8:00, or after 9:00 and running late, or 9 ish, or before the Cctv at the tennis club.

So you don't know of the FGM was at the inquest or what time the FF left after all these years?

Is it your view that if no one saw anything it didn't happen?

And yes I do believe those thing could have happened in that time frame as all activities were of a short duration IMO

 

[LRitz]

I believe they had breakfast before the bike riding.

Happy that is your opinion.
My opinion is that there is no proof of bike riding . IMO it is possible it did not happen before or after breakfast.
Can you say how you fit the activities in between breakfast and playing on deck.

 

[gymjam]

Could FM have driven away from the house to make a phone call.

Maybe went there for better reception. How bad was the mobile reception at the FGM's house? FF claims the reason he went to Lakewood to make his work call is to get better reception. The 000 call is with the FGM's landline. She could have used another phone, or just changed SIM cards in her phone so it would not show up on her phone records. She then changes SIM back, and throws the burner sim out of the car. And it is never found. Needle in a haystack.

The question is why make a call that she does not want tracked? Possible IMO, to contact FF and check in on him and find out his expected return time.

Even if the SIM card is changed the IMEI number is still available to tele records. This is a unique identifier connected to each mobile phone made. Official telephone records that police obtain from telcos contain lots more information than the everyday telephone record that we get.

There were quite a few media photos published in the immediate aftermath of 12/9/2014 that showed people with mobile phones to their ears; and there is a photo of the foster father looking at a mobile phone whilst he is sitting in the back of one of the police scene control vans in the bottom driveway of 48. He could be looking at photos on the phone or he could be talking whilst looking directly at the screen of the phone or he could have been on a video call.

 

[31550]

From her testimony:

Anne Maree, after coming into first contact with the FM, went down towards Batar Creek Rd as it was the biggest danger. She walked down looking Lt to Rt at each property, walked around bus stop.

FFC pointed to where William went missing from ( FGM's house) Anne Maree went back up Benaroon Drive, went to PS @ # 43, went to Crabbs @ # 51 & saw FFC knocking on # 35's door.

Anne Maree back down Benaroon Drive with FM to Lyndene Heslop's house # 9 ( on corner of Benaroon Drive & Batar Creek Rd ) Saw man on yellow ride on mower, he asked if everything was OK , told little boy in a spider-man suit missing, put his mower away & he & his dogs walked up the street.

Hope that helps

Did Anne Maree mention the FM driving FGMs car any time between when she first met her and when Anne Maree went back down to Lydene Heslops house WITH FM? Because this is when FM had previously said she took the drive. (And how it is described in Overington's book). There seems to have been an awful lot of walking and driving up and down Benaroon drive by the FM in such a very short timeframe that nobody saw.

 

[LRitz]

So you don't know of the FGM was at the inquest or what time the FF left after all these years?

Is it your view that if no one saw anything it didn't happen?

And yes I do believe those thing could have happened in that time frame as all activities were of a short duration IMO

No I did not go to inquest or listen to hours of podcasts. If it was not seen it was not witnessed, that is, there is no proof, is all I'm saying. Yes it is possible FGM had dementia, yes it is possible that they rode the bikes, yes it is possible William was run over by the postie.

FGM walkthrough : FF left at 8:00, allegedly
FM statement : FF left after 9:00, he was running late.allegedly
FF walkthrough: left 9ish. allegedly
CCTV at tennis club has him there before 9:00

So do you know when FF left FGM house, after all these years? Please let us know.

 

[jason_recliner]

FF could have had a burner phone. Possible.
FF received other calls after his work call. I would guess/hope police followed them all up.

Bike riding evidence in 2019! I would think your best recall is closer to the incident rather than 4 years later.
I don't think there was enough time between end of breakfast, the phone call to the repair man, playing with William, hurting her hand, coming back inside to show FGM her hand, then playing spinning monsters etc, and be back on the deck by 9:30. So when was the other possible time for bike ride. The kids have been up early, wouldn't you have breakfast before going outside and playing. So IMO, it is possible there was no bike ride.

Do you have a "burner phone"? Do you know anybody with a "burner phone"?

 

[Underarrest_]

Im not sure why there’s questions about where FM is said to have driven and placed William. The police have said they have a brief of evidence alleging FM disposed of William around BCR/CCR and this is where they did the big dig. FM is not disputing she drove here.
Surely the police have looked into other options re phone data/witnesses/other to prepare their brief.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The children heard playing is not an eye witness of William. As mentioned previously, it could have been just one child, FD who was playing.
Possible but not certain.
No one, as far as I know, saw William that morning, other than the family.

Yes agreed. That was why I was interested in the use of plural. By no means certain and less so because not seen but it has a place in determining POL especially because it is independent testimony

 

[gymjam]

And yet the body hasn't been found in their short timeline at the location they chose. The logical reason is they placed the body further afield....and time becomes a factor. No cadaver. No forensics. Not there. I don't buy feral animals at all..

What I KNOW is that EXIF can be edited and not detected..I DON'T KNOW what tests were performed to satisfy that time..because I don't know and until I do I don't accept anything under control of FM and capable of manipulation. That is sound evidence assesment not nonsensical.

Personally I think anyone who blindly accepts evidence other than on the hierarchy I outlined is looking to get the answer SFR has .....a wrong one. Indeed to then double down and characterise the logic as nonsensical is ignorance.

I'm not asking you to engage me. I couldn't give a..... But I post for the benefit of the thread in entirety not YOU.

Then there is something very critical to consider and it should probably be referred to as a what if.

What if the created times were actually the times? But then I have the following question continually circling in my mind and that is:

What would be the reason someone would want to prove that they were with William (his foster grandmother and his biological sister) and they were all alive and present and positioned on the deck at 48 Benaroon Drive in Kendall at the times between 9.37 and 9.39 on 12/9/2014 when it could be proven (likely) beyond doubt (by cctv images captured in Lakewood and later verified by police investigators) that the foster father was in the Lakewood location at these times and Lakewood was approximately 10 kilometers away?

 

[Underarrest_]

Then there is something very critical to consider and it should probably be referred to as a what if.

What if the created times were actually the times? But then I have the following question continually circling in my mind and that is:

What would be the reason someone would want to prove that they were with William (his foster grandmother and his biological sister) and they were all alive and present and positioned on the deck at 48 Benaroon Drive in Kendall at the times between 9.37 and 9.39 on 12/9/2014 when it could be proven (likely) beyond doubt (by cctv images captured in Lakewood and later verified by police investigators) that the foster father was in the Lakewood location at these times and Lakewood was approximately 10 kilometers away?

Totally agree, it’s a possibility.

 

[31550]

Im not sure why there’s questions about where FM is said to have driven and placed William. The police have said they have a brief of evidence alleging FM disposed of William around BCR/CCR and this is where they did the big dig. FM is not disputing she drove here.
Surely the police have looked into other options re phone data/witnesses/other to prepare their brief.

I'll tell you why. It's absolutely critical to the case. Not so much WHERE she drove but WHEN and WHY. Because the timing and location of the drive is inconsistent with the explanation that she was looking for William. She took the drive before looking for him, and before telling anybody he was missing. She initially did not tell anyone about the drive. She later related the drive but the sequence of events as told by FM is inconsistent with known facts and other eyewitness testimony.

 

[LRitz]

Yes agreed. That was why I was interested in the use of plural. By no means certain and less so because not seen but it has a place in determining POL especially because it is independent testimony

If neighbour knew that a couple of kids were visiting he could have just used the word "children" because he would assumed that they were both playing. He does not mention adults voices, yet FM alleges she is playing with kids and that FGM was outside for a time as well. Or maybe adult voices do not carry as much as adult voices could explain it.
Edit : Or maybe adult voices do not carry as much as Children voices could explain it.

 

[Underarrest_]

I'll tell you why. It's absolutely critical to the case. Not so much WHERE she drove but WHEN and WHY. Because the timing and location of the drive is inconsistent with the explanation that she was looking for William. She took the drive before looking for him, and before telling anybody he was missing. She initially did not tell anyone about the drive. She later related the drive but the sequence of events as told by FM is inconsistent with known facts and other eyewitness testimony.

Yes but aren’t police saying they believe FM put William in the car and took him to somewhere near that intersection?
This is why they have expert testimonies about bones,etc?

 

[31550]

Then there is something very critical to consider and it should probably be referred to as a what if.

What if the created times were actually the times? But then I have the following question continually circling in my mind and that is:

What would be the reason someone would want to prove that they were with William (his foster grandmother and his biological sister) and they were all alive and present and positioned on the deck at 48 Benaroon Drive in Kendall at the times between 9.37 and 9.39 on 12/9/2014 when it could be proven (likely) beyond doubt (by cctv images captured in Lakewood and later verified by police investigators) that the foster father was in the Lakewood location at these times and Lakewood was approximately 10 kilometers away?

We have been asked not to discuss the photo times any more unless the deputy coroner challenges their veracity.

 

[31550]

Yes but aren’t police saying they believe FM put William in the car and took him to somewhere near that intersection?

I don't care what the police allege. I am interested in what actually happened.

 

[Underarrest_]

I don't care what the police allege. I am interested in what actually happened.

Me too, just in case you think you’re the only one
Police either have evidence to support their theory that FM disposed of William where they said she did or they don’t.

 

[Wallace52]

No I did not go to inquest or listen to hours of podcasts. If it was not seen it was not witnessed, that is, there is no proof, is all I'm saying. Yes it is possible FGM had dementia, yes it is possible that they rode the bikes, yes it is possible William was run over by the postie.

FGM walkthrough : FF left at 8:00, allegedly
FM statement : FF left after 9:00, he was running late.allegedly
FF walkthrough: left 9ish. allegedly
CCTV at tennis club has him there before 9:00

So do you know when FF left FGM house, after all these years? Please let us know.

Yes, CCTV has him passing the tennis club about 8:40am.

 

[Wallace52]

Yes but aren’t police saying they believe FM put William in the car and took him to somewhere near that intersection?
This is why they have expert testimonies about bones,etc?

That’s right.

 

[31550]

Me too, just in case you think you’re the only one
Police either have evidence to support their theory that FM disposed of William where they said she did or they don’t.

Regardless of the police evidence, the coroner needs to determine the probable cause and circumstances of William's death. The nature and intention, time and location of the FM drive provides vital information to determine that. Why doesn't anyone want to talk about it?