Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[Underarrest_]

I think it was 31550 who did an analysis to prove 10.30 simply can’t have been the time of drive. It had to happen before the alarm was raised. I think the time of 10.08 to 10.13 was the time Crabbs heard the car calculated by SFR. Could be wrong but what I recall. That 5 minutes was mentioned

If you are a person who has a dead body you choose to hide you are not going to raise the alarm then hide the body. You are going to hide the body then when you are safe raise the alarm.

If I have misled I apologise

Yes I think this makes much more sense too.
Can’t work out why police are saying after neighbours were alerted.

 

[Earls Smother]

Yes I think this makes much more sense too.
Can’t work out why police are saying after neighbours were alerted.

Not that I agree with them, but it provides an explanation (for the neighbours, in the eyes of the police) as to why she was driving - to look for William.

If the neighbours saw her drive and then she came back and said "William is missing", it would have looked more suspicious to the neighbours.

I know it sounds a bit arse-about, but the police are speculating that she is providing a reason (false in their eyes) for driving, before actually doing the driving. She would have been seen driving (or at least assumed she would), so if she was guilty of committing an offence, she would have wanted to appear to be driving for a legitimate reason.

 

[js47]

Isn’t this the theory they’ve put to the Coroner.

If it isn’t, then why do they keep bringing it up?

 

[js47]

I read the article in the Daily Mail by Candice Sutton
21 January 2024, William’s Final Hours.
This article in one part talks about the neighbours and FM.
……quizzed the FM concedes, ‘…it must have been by myself’…’ and I got in Mum’s….’
Interesting read.may be protected by copywrite.

 

[31550]

William Tyrrell inquest: foster mother abused outside court after police allege she may have buried toddler

Counsel assisting warns ‘fairness is deserved by all’ after inquest hears foster mother may have disposed of three-year-old’s body following accidental death in 2014

www.theguardian.com

Craddock on Monday opened the fifth round of the inquest by stating police now believed the boy’s foster mother found him deceased after a fall from the balcony of the grandmother’s Kendall property.

Only this from the media of what was said in the Coroners
court.

Craddock may have said this.
I still don't think police have ever formally alleged (as opposed to suggested), a balcony fall.

 

[31550]

The answer will fall out when enough pieces of the puzzle are gathered. I don’t know how you gather those extra pieces absent some breakthrough or the body.

Sometimes you need to look at what you have already assembled, and then realise that you have put the pieces together incorrectly. Possibly toss out a couple of pieces that don't belong. Just because two pieces seem to fit, doesn't make that the only possible solution.
There are some pieces which have been put back in the box because someone thought, "that can't POSSIBLY be right", - maybe it's time to take those pieces out of the box and look at them under a spotlight?

 

[js47]

Does Cain’s Jaw Bone ring a bell?

 

[Underarrest_]

I still don't think police have ever formally alleged (as opposed to suggested), a balcony fall.

Suggested?
No wonder this case hasn’t been solved.
Police need a bit more than suggestions.
I hope there’s a bit more weight than their suggestion to Frank Abbott that he lured William with lollies.

 

[DropBearess]

Sometimes l feel we're going around in circles here, going over the same old; probably because we're all bored waiting for justice which may never happen.

I really admire the posters who can sort the timing and algorithms of that messy morning, given the dubious input of three adults who seemingly can't agree on a single thing. Here is some factual stuff which may help our brains trust establish how far William could have walked, if indeed he survived outside the property:-

I live in a rural township and was recently asked to mind a 2.6 year old while his parents attended to an emergency 1km away, euthanising and burying a pet. He didn't know me well and became very distressed, wanting his mother. I didn't have a suitable car seat, so l walked him home as a distraction, knowing it would be over by then. He was a little man on a mission, small for his age, wearing a nappy. He power-walked exactly 1km in 15 minutes; l measured the distance today. The terrain was bitumen, turning into gravel, then dirt, all with dodgy footpaths, if at all. At least 10 cars passed us in a town much smaller than Kendall. I hope this helps in terms of distance William could have covered.

My second observation relates to kids William's age in terms of my experience over 40 years. I
have worked with literally hundreds of them in city and rural placements from teaching, family support, crisis intervention, special needs, police intervention, psychological counselling; the whole shebang. I've worked in rural areas where cows kick kids while giving birth, sheepdogs knock them to the ground and 12 year olds throw hay bales much heavier than themselves. I've trained Aussie Rules rules players of all ages for 20 years but l've never seen a kid William's age with a black eye.

On SM-A356E using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[js47]

My total respect for you DropBearess.

 

[BFew]

New article and related podcast out today.

https://www.themercury.com.au/entertainment/celebrity-life/i-cant-let-it-go-i-wont-let-it-go-moment-colleagues-turned-on-william-tyrrell-detective/news-story/1a3d2290ee03d4a62ccac42cb16a30d5

'Not a day goes by without Gary Jubelin thinking of William Tyrrell, the toddler who went missing in NSW 10 years ago, in September 2014. A few months after the three-year-old’s disappearance, Jubelin was placed as lead detective on the case.
A decade later Tyrrell remains missing, as an inquest into his disappearance plays out.

“I am still passionate about the William Tyrrell matter. I can’t let it go. I won’t let it go,” the former homicide investigator told the Stellar podcast Something To Talk About.

Jubelin, who left the police force in 2019 after being accused – and then found guilty – of illegally recording a suspect in the case, believes people have a right to be critical of the investigation.

“I am as confused as the public on the information that has got out. I think we – and I’m still including myself as a police officer in this term – should be judged on the way that investigation has been handled. And I don’t know how the public could possibly have confidence in what’s going on,” he said.'

From murders to meditation: Gary Jubelin's advice for a calmer life - Something To Talk About

Gary Jubelin specialised in the field of homicide for 25 years, rising to the rank of Detective Chief Inspector until the time of his retirement from the force in 2019. Since leaving the police, he has built another very successful career, this time in the media, the author of two best-selling...

omny.fm

 

[LRitz]

Sometimes you need to look at what you have already assembled, and then realise that you have put the pieces together incorrectly. Possibly toss out a couple of pieces that don't belong. Just because two pieces seem to fit, doesn't make that the only possible solution.
There are some pieces which have been put back in the box because someone thought, "that can't POSSIBLY be right", - maybe it's time to take those pieces out of the box and look at them under a spotlight?

Did Mrs Savage see a car speeding before she went to Bingo? Maybe someone can recall.
Was this dismissed? Maybe an important peice of the puzzle that has been lost.

 

[stormbird]

Did Mrs Savage see a car speeding before she went to Bingo? Maybe someone can recall.
Was this dismissed? Maybe an important peice of the puzzle that has been lost.

I'm not aware of Mrs Savage seeing a car speeding. But not much about her evidence has been made public. Has anyone seen her witness statement?

This article is probably quoting her husband, I think (because somewhere else it was reported that he remembered the time she left their house):

'A Benaroon Drive resident said his wife drove out of the street, which William's grandmother no longer lives in, one minute before William disappeared.*

It was 26 or 28 minutes to 11am, he remembered with minute detail.

"She never saw a car or noticed anything strange," he said.'

Sydney Morning Herald, 06 Sep 2015

*Note that the article doesn't explain whether it was the Benaroon Drive resident or the reporter who was saying that William had disappeared at 10:35 am.

If FF arrived back at Benaroon Drive about 10:33 am, Mrs Savage probably would have seen him as she headed to Kendall on the way to bingo at Laurieton.

 

[31550]

I'm not aware of Mrs Savage seeing a car speeding. But not much about her evidence has been made public. Has anyone seen her witness statement?

This article is probably quoting her husband, I think (because somewhere else it was reported that he remembered the time she left their house):

'A Benaroon Drive resident said his wife drove out of the street, which William's grandmother no longer lives in, one minute before William disappeared.*

It was 26 or 28 minutes to 11am, he remembered with minute detail.

"She never saw a car or noticed anything strange," he said.'

Sydney Morning Herald, 06 Sep 2015

*Note that the article doesn't explain whether it was the Benaroon Drive resident or the reporter who was saying that William had disappeared at 10:35 am.

If FF arrived back at Benaroon Drive about 10:33 am, Mrs Savage probably would have seen him as she headed to Kendall on the way to bingo at Laurieton.

Yes, and Paul Savage was back in his house for some time after his wife left with no knowledge of William's disappearance until Anne Maree Sharpley came and knocked on his door (around 10:50am?)

After Mrs Savage left home, FF returned home, then FM saw AMS, and AMS directed FM to the bus stop. All this before AMS went to see Paul Savage and before the 000 call.

So when was the drive? Why do police think it was AFTER FF returned home? No time.

 

[stormbird]

Yes, and Paul Savage was back in his house for some time after his wife left with no knowledge of William's disappearance until Anne Maree Sharpley came and knocked on his door (around 10:50am?)

After Mrs Savage left home, FF returned home, then FM saw AMS, and AMS directed FM to the bus stop. All this before AMS went to see Paul Savage and before the 000 call.

So when was the drive? Why do police think it was AFTER FF returned home? No time.

Re the times of Mrs Savage and FF: if Mrs Savage drove out at 28 minutes to 11 am (10:32) or 26 mins to 11 (10:34) she probably should have seen FF coming towards her or heading into FGM's driveway at 10:33 in his new Land Rover Discovery which she would never have seen before. Maybe that wouldn't be memorable if they passed on Batar Creek Road, but if he was in Benaroon Drive I think it might have been something she would notice. So maybe they didn't pass in Benaroon Drive and the times are wrong.

 

[Earls Smother]

So when was the drive? Why do police think it was AFTER FF returned home? No time.

Do they?

I would have thought that one of the things that is generally accepted as very, very likely (I won't say fact), is that FM arrived home just before FF did?

For her to have driven after he returned home, would heavily implicate him in lying (by omission) to cover for her. There is no suggestion of this from police. It is simply not possible for the whole family to have not known about the drive, if it took place after FF was back home.

 

[31550]

Do they?

I would have thought that one of the things that is generally accepted as very, very likely (I won't say fact), is that FM arrived home just before FF did?

For her to have driven after he returned home, would heavily implicate him in lying (by omission) to cover for her. There is no suggestion of this from police. It is simply not possible for the whole family to have not known about the drive, if it took place after FF was back home.

Police seem to be alleging FM took the drive AFTER alerting neighbours - at least this is what Craddock SAYS police are alleging. We don't know for sure because the coroner refuses to call police witnesses to provide details of their theory.

But we know (with reasonable certainty) that the first neighbour engaged was Sharpley, who met FM after 10:35am - Sharpley could hear a male voice in FGM back yard calling for William, so this (almost certainly) was FF, who returned home at 10:35 (almost certainly). Sharpley then sent FM to the bus shelter on foot, which is a few hundred metres away. FM supposedly walked there and back before returning to FGM house and dialling 000, which by my calculations leaves NO time for a drive between FF returning home and the 000 call.

So yes I agree with you and generally accept that the drive must have taken place before FF returned home.
Not only before he returned home, but before anyone was told William was 'missing'.

Which begs the question, "Why drive all the way to Cobb&Co (or somewhere else), before searching the immediate area?" How could William possibly have walked that far away in such a short time? What was the real purpose of the drive? And why do police seem to accept that the drive was somehow crammed into this very short time period?

 

[Earls Smother]

Police seem to be alleging FM took the drive AFTER alerting neighbours - at least this is what Craddock SAYS police are alleging. We don't know for sure because the coroner refuses to call police witnesses to provide details of their theory.

Craddock surely wouldn't say that, unless it was genuinely the belief of police.

"We" don't have to know everything for sure.

But we know (with reasonable certainty) that the first neighbour engaged was Sharpley, who met FM after 10:35am - Sharpley could hear a male voice in FGM back yard calling for William, so this (almost certainly) was FF, who returned home at 10:35 (almost certainly). Sharpley then sent FM to the bus shelter on foot, which is a few hundred metres away. FM supposedly walked there and back before returning to FGM house and dialling 000, which by my calculations leaves NO time for a drive between FF returning home and the 000 call.

The sequence and exact times of these events is where the problem lies (in terms of consensus).

The above version suggests ringing 000 after the bus stop walk/run. FM's version is she drove directly after the bus stop walk/run. So in that case, all the above happened prior to 10:35 - which fits with the police theory of neighbours alerted first.

Then they went back into the street upon FF's return. If Sharpley heard the male voice when she was having a smoke, then that was later on, after the initial interaction.

So yes I agree with you and generally accept that the drive must have taken place before FF returned home.
Not only before he returned home, but before anyone was told William was 'missing'.

Only if you are fixated on one version of events. The foster family clearly have mixed memories of events. It cannot be accepted that the neighbour's versions are foolproof. They too will have inconsistencies - look at the Crabbe's with the time of hearing of a car.

Which begs the question, "Why drive all the way to Cobb&Co (or somewhere else), before searching the immediate area?" How could William possibly have walked that far away in such a short time? What was the real purpose of the drive? And why do police seem to accept that the drive was somehow crammed into this very short time period?

See above re only accepting one version of events.