Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell Pt 3 * Coroner's Hearings Concluded

[Kurve]

Continued from PART 2

Criminal charges:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father *Not Guilty
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both *Guilty
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

Please type names out in full for those who are not covered by suppression orders.

For those covered by suppression orders, please use the following to indicate:

FM - Foster Mother
FF - Foster Father
FGM - Foster Grandmother
FD - Foster Daughter
FPs - Foster Parents

Up to you if you wish to refer to them as former fosters but please write it in full, strictly using the above. No deviations.

Other initials posters will use informally but should not are:

BCR - Batar Creek Road
FA - Frank Abbott
MW - Michelle White
SFR - Strike Force Rosann
AMS - Anne Maree Sharpley
CCR - Cobb and Co Road
GO - Geoff Owens
One even reduced bike riding to - BR
COG - Consciousness of guilt. Like WHO KNEW?

 

[31550]

You can't know what they believe. All you know is what their brief theory is but that's what they hope they can prove on evidence. They could highly suspect 9.37 is wrong but recognise they can't prove it so have instead sought to prove the lesser charges and with the 9.37 timeline.

There is a reason the police walk through of FGM is floating around and that's because I think they leaked it knowing how incriminating it is.

I didn't say I knew anything. I said "they do not seem to". That is of course just my opinion, but clearly they seem (i.e. from outward appearances) to accept the 9.37 time. I say this because if they genuinely thought otherwise, then they have a duty and obligation to pursue charges for (at least) tampering with evidence, and probably perverting the course of justice. They haven't done so and appear to have no plans to do so. It's a reasonable assumption to make that they accept the 9.37 time. Three lead detectives have had a chance to do otherwise. Third parties have examined the photos. The NSWCC has been involved. The coroner has also directed enquiries about the photographs.
Maybe there are one or two individuals in NSWPOL who think differently, but that is not, and cannot be the view of SFR or the entire investigation would be headed in a different direction: Who faked the photos and why?

You may well be correct about the FGM walkthrough. But it hasn't worked yet.

 

[passball]

I'm still wondering if CCTV guy was also used to get the photos.
Such a strange photo to put up of William with his chubby face and black eye.
I can't understand why the FM would use that or was it the Bios that gave that photo or even Young Hope.
The public were talking about that black eye and that the Bios had something to do with it.
That's the public's view at the time.
They should check it again but by different people, too important not to.

 

[Lady O]

I'm still wondering if CCTV guy was also used to get the photos.
Such a strange photo to put up of William with his chubby face and black eye.
I can't understand why the FM would use that or was it the Bios that gave that photo or even Young Hope.
The public were talking about that black eye and that the Bios had something to do with it.
That's the public's view at the time.
They should check it again but by different people, too important not to.

I thought I read recently, but can't find it now, that FM gave them the photo in the fire engine initially, but I can't back that up now.

 

[passball]

I thought I read recently, but can't find it now, that FM gave them the photo in the fire engine initially, but I can't back that up now. the black eye photo have been taken on an access visit with the Bios?

Can't imagine the perfect FM taking that imperfect photo for her perfect scrapbook and to give it to Police to use.

 

[Grassy_Knoll]

I think it was much earlier..perhaps it was 7.39

The photos were taken at 7:37am - 7:39am exact opposite to a magic Oswald single bullet theory that government tried to convince us with for 60 years. We've still got 50 years to go believing 9:37am proof of life. It won't take 50 years, trust me.

If anyone wants to say that XWays is the be all and end all, then put simply you know what side of the fence they're on.
The FACT remains the coroner asked for the timestamps to be cleared up at the conclusion of sittings several years ago. It was her last direction before the inquest went into recess. Upon resumption in 2024 it simply was NEVER was cleared up. Does Harriett Grahame think the general public are stupid? She gave a specific direction, I didn't see Mr Craddock in a hurry to remind her about it, why is that?

In case you have short memories Police Commissioner had issues with Ms. Grahame
NSW Police tried to exclude deputy coroner

Laidlaw didn't see eye to eye with her, Jubelin got on well with her. Interesting??

Moving on, you wouldn't want to overlook leaving a Photoshop red masking tool on any image that might be cause for concern. You know to remove reflections from certain windows. I'd like to ask who did leave the red dot above William's head, was it FACS, NSWPOL, or someone in Young Hope.

They do realize if you mess with evidence, that's perverting the course of justice.

A few might need to look it up,I'll save you under NSW Criminal Code I think it's 10 years in the can.

Good news, they've updated it from 10 to 14 years, it's their lucky day!

Section 319 — Perverting the course of justice. Section 319 provides: “A person who does any act, or makes any omission, intending in any way to pervert the course of justice, is liable to imprisonment for 14 years”

 

[Kurve]

I don't believe anyone 'corrected the time'. IMO that's a misleading question.
Yes the police established the 'corrected time', by examining the camera itself (particularly its internal clock), and the timestamp of the photograph. Noticing that the internal camera clock was approx 2 hours off AEST, they established that the photograph was taken at an actual time approx 2 hours off its 'time taken' timestamp (using precisely the difference between the actual internal camera time and true AEST). Hence 'corrected time'. Police didn't correct or change anything physically. I don't believe anyone did.
When police downloaded or copied images, they would have been copied exactly without anything changing - all the EXIF data would be preserved (except obviously, for e.g. 'time last accessed' if there was such a thing, or anything similar) ... but all the important stiff would be preserved otherwise forensic analysis of copied photographs would be futile.
I hope this makes sense. It seems folks have trouble with this, possibly because they don't understand the concept of 'corrected time' in this instance?

Okay. Who is responsible for the 'CORRECTED TIME' placed over the image?

Are you saying this 'CORRECTED TIME' we can see on the image, is not part of the image's internal metadata?

 

[Angry Red Bull]

I don't know what's shown on the metadata relevant to a photo on that camera..I seem recall TCP gave a snap of one in one of his posts when he questioned firmware version. If it's not linked to world clock but merely records time date pm or am it may need manually setting of time and day date only. It will record those things. What if it was originally set on Bali time 2 hr difference. That persisted until after the background sunrise TV shot but was then manually changed back to Aust time. Then the photos were actually taken at 7.39. The only edit then is manually returning the set up back to Bali time again before the camera is handed in. There are NO editing of photos per se but manually changing time and date.in settings

The 2019 coroner hearings had a one page SFR statement refering to corrected time being 2 hrs difference. It was police manual adjustment only because they had evidence of the Sunrise TV shot perhaps and checked the setting which was the only thing they could do. There were no edits because there weren't. Was that statement summarising what was in metadata or THEIR conclusion based on narrative and evidence?

Is that possible?

Overington says it was a $200 camera. The features and settings wouldn't be high end ..

 

[31550]

Okay. Who is responsible for the 'CORRECTED TIME' placed over the image?

Are you saying this 'CORRECTED TIME' we can see on the image, is not part of the image's internal metadata?

Yes. That is my understanding.
Things like 'Date Taken' are part of the image metadata. 'Corrected Date' is not. The camera has no concept of 'Corrected Date'.
Whoever printed the photo out, or converted it from raw data using software, (probably the cops) chose to superimpose the Date Taken and Corrected Date over the final images printed out and given to courts and media.
The person who physically took the camera, removed the SD card, and analysed it would have been able to read the 'Date Taken' from each file on the SD card. They would also have been able to examine the camera's internal clock to determine 'drift'. This would have shown an approx 2 hour discrepancy between camera time and true time. So all the 'Corrected Times' were derived by adding these approx 2 hours to the value of 'Date Taken' from the EXIF, and coming up with a derived Corrected Time. Nothing in the original camera or files would have changed.
Corrected times would not have been written over the files themselves as this would mean corrupting evidence.
The original files and the SD card and the camera itself should all be in exactly the same state as when they were taken for evidence. Even today.
TLDR Corrected Time is a concept the investigators use to denote the true time a digital image was created.

 

[Kurve]

Yes. That is my understanding.
Things like 'Date Taken' are part of the image metadata. 'Corrected Date' is not. The camera has no concept of 'Corrected Date'.
Whoever printed the photo out, or converted it from raw data using software, (probably the cops) chose to superimpose the Date Taken and Corrected Date over the final images printed out and given to courts and media.
The person who physically took the camera, removed the SD card, and analysed it would have been able to read the 'Date Taken' from each file on the SD card. They would also have been able to examine the camera's internal clock to determine 'drift'. This would have shown an approx 2 hour discrepancy between camera time and true time. So all the 'Corrected Times' were derived by adding these approx 2 hours to the value of 'Date Taken' from the EXIF, and coming up with a derived Corrected Time. Nothing in the original camera or files would have changed.
Corrected times would not have been written over the files themselves as this would mean corrupting evidence.
The original files and the SD card and the camera itself should all be in exactly the same state as when they were taken for evidence. Even today.
TLDR Corrected Time is a concept the investigators use to denote the true time a digital image was created.

Okay.

The reason why I think it was taken earlier is not due to the stamps, it's because every time I look at that image my mind sets the scene to earlier than 9.37am in line with what I'm seeing. It still looks a bit dewy and chilled, as if the sun hasn't been up long enough.

Yes, I know it's very unscientific.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

Okay.

The reason why I think it was taken earlier is not due to the stamps, it's because every time I look at that image my mind sets the scene to earlier than 9.37am in line with what I'm seeing. It still looks a bit dewy and chilled, as if the sun hasn't been up long enough.

Yes, I know it's very unscientific.

Yes absolutely. There is an abundance of things which suggest to me it was earlier too before you even get to alleged lies and leakages.

 

[pinkjellybean]

I'm still wondering if CCTV guy was also used to get the photos.
Such a strange photo to put up of William with his chubby face and black eye.
I can't understand why the FM would use that or was it the Bios that gave that photo or even Young Hope.
The public were talking about that black eye and that the Bios had something to do with it.
That's the public's view at the time.
They should check it again but by different people, too important not to.

Wasn't it that the bruised eye photo was used initially as it was immediately available from somewhere in the FGMs house, I'm guessing framed and on display. I think this is mentioned in Overington's book. I'll check.

 

[Lady O]

Wasn't it that the bruised eye photo was used initially as it was immediately available from somewhere in the FGMs house, I'm guessing framed and on display. I think this is mentioned in Overington's book. I'll check.

Just doing a search through Overington's "Missing William Tyrrell", and this is all I can find regarding the photos made available to Police:



It doesn't actually say which one/s she authorised to be released, but says the first was WT in the orange T-Shirt.

Just as an aside, this also answers the question about when Michelle White arrived in Kendall.

 

[Underarrest_]

It is interesting that FM had already taken photos of William and of what he was wearing that morning. They would have been just settling in, apparently having breakfast and relaxing on the patio. I guess it could be just something FM just decided to do straight away.
I know nothing about photography except taking a quick snap and it’s probably been mentioned before but are the children in proportion for if FM was squatting down to take the roar photo? The other photos look the same but in the roar photo William’s head looks to be above the height of the window even though he’s sitting and leaning down.
Is it because of the angle it’s taken?

 

[LRitz]

I don't understand your difference between a shadow and a reflection? When I looked closely at the planter legs there was a shadow toward the other planter stand then there was a strong shadow seemingly from the back wall light source coming directly at the photographer. The fact there are two such shadows and different intensity just confirms the two light sources morning sun and an outside downlight imo.

i think some of it is reflection onto the shiny timber floor. The reflections have some of the colour of the objects that are reflecting the light . Like the pink or green drink bottles. The floor is worn in some areas so those areas may not show any reflections.
I have tried to circle what I think are reflections, which are at different angles to the shadows. Also the photo information has numbers 1102, 1103, ......Like the other information this shows the photos are from the police files not the original photos of the FM. They seem to be numbered 2 through to 6. Maybe the first photo 1 was not released as it does not show William.
The light through the doors into the kitchen and house does look dull but this is away from the direction of the sunrise. Maybe there are local conditions or hills in the forest that keep that side of house in shade.

 

[LRitz]

I wonder what the letters on the photo mean ?
Path:\DCIM \100MSDCF

DCIM :?

MSDCF:
M: Memory stick(or card) from
XX 's
C: Camera
F : ?? forensic

 

[Percel]

I wonder what the letters on the photo mean ?
Path:\DCIM \100MSDCF

DCIM :?

MSDCF:
M: Memory stick(or card) from
XX 's
C: Camera
F : ?? forensic

Digital camera images
Mass storage device class (files)

 

[Kurve]

Digital camera images
Mass storage device class (files)

We've been looking at the last image taken of William Tyrrell which is being used as proof of life at 9.37am, roughly half an hour before he went missing.

The camera was said to be set at Bali time which was 7.37am, at the time the image was captured.

Have you seen an image presented this way showing a 'Created Time' and a 'Corrected Time'?

If so, how did this 'Corrected Time' appear on the image?

TIA.

 

[31550]

I wonder what the letters on the photo mean ?
Path:\DCIM \100MSDCF

DCIM :?

MSDCF:
M: Memory stick(or card) from
XX 's
C: Camera
F : ?? forensic

It's the name of the folder on the storage device where the source image file was located.

 

[LRitz]

Digital camera images
Mass storage device class (files)

thanks . I was way off.

 

[LRitz]

We've been looking at the last image taken of William Tyrrell which is being used as proof of life at 9.37am, roughly half an hour before he went missing.

The camera was said to be set at Bali time which was 7.37am, at the time the image was captured.

Have you seen an image presented this way showing a 'Created Time' and a 'Corrected Time'?

If so, how did this 'Corrected Time' appear on the image?

TIA.

The last photos were taken at 9:37. We do not have any evidence of William or FM after this time, until about 10:35 when FF and FM are seen by neighbours.
Do we really know what time William went missing or left Benaroon Dr. It could have been 9:38.

 

[Angry Red Bull]

The last photos were taken at 9:37. We do not have any evidence of William or FM after this time, until about 10:35 when FF and FM are seen by neighbours.
Do we really know what time William went missing or left Benaroon Dr. It could have been 9:38.

The Crabbs were home at 9.30 approx. A car was heard by them coming down the road, turned around by U Turn, paused enough time to put an envelope in mail box then drove off again..That has been estimated as 10.10 approx..It stopped at number 48 per Crabbs

That is the testimony. If it was an outward bound trip then why was car heard coming down the street? FGM car was already home in carport

It it was a return trip after having already hidden W then why did it go back down the street after pausing?

This car is imo not FM and FGM car.. Totally inconsistent with testimony that can't reconcile..

Can the Crabbs be wrong? Well yes sure but they tested them to know veracity of what they heard and were satisfied they could tell..

So the question becomes if SFR know this car came from outside the home turned around and left again why do they think it is FM?

How could it be FM? It could be FM if the initial outbound trip wasn't heard at for some reason and this was a second trip to collect something to throw away perhaps. Alternatively it's totally unrelated..

 

[pinkjellybean]

i think some of it is reflection onto the shiny timber floor. The reflections have some of the colour of the objects that are reflecting the light . Like the pink or green drink bottles. The floor is worn in some areas so those areas may not show any reflections.
I have tried to circle what I think are reflections, which are at different angles to the shadows. Also the photo information has numbers 1102, 1103, ......Like the other information this shows the photos are from the police files not the original photos of the FM. They seem to be numbered 2 through to 6. Maybe the first photo 1 was not released as it does not show William.
The light through the doors into the kitchen and house does look dull but this is away from the direction of the sunrise. Maybe there are local conditions or hills in the forest that keep that side of house in shade.View attachment 2211681View attachment 2211682View attachment 2211682

The photos may have been taken with the camera's flash on. Would that account for the shiny reflections you noticed?

 

[Kurve]

The last photos were taken at 9:37. We do not have any evidence of William or FM after this time, until about 10:35 when FF and FM are seen by neighbours.
Do we really know what time William went missing or left Benaroon Dr. It could have been 9:38.

That wasn't what I was asking.

But what evidence do we have of him being there between 7.37am and 9.37am? Is the Spiderman image it?

This is the issue we've been discussing.

 

[Underarrest_]

If police thought the photos could have been taken two hours earlier (but can’t prove it) wouldn’t they have been looking at other possibilities or would they still think FF went into town so he had an alibi.
I don’t think police really know. It’s FM who said she took a drive and they seem to be running with it.

 

[Underarrest_]

The Crabbs were home at 9.30 approx. A car was heard by them coming down the road, turned around by U Turn, paused enough time to put an envelope in mail box then drove off again..That has been estimated as 10.10 approx..It stopped at number 48 per Crabbs

That is the testimony. If it was an outward bound trip then why was car heard coming down the street? FGM car was already home in carport

It it was a return trip after having already hidden W then why did it go back down the street after pausing?

This car is imo not FM and FGM car.. Totally inconsistent with testimony that can't reconcile..

Can the Crabbs be wrong? Well yes sure but they tested them to know veracity of what they heard and were satisfied they could tell..

So the question becomes if SFR know this car came from outside the home turned around and left again why do they think it is FM?

How could it be FM? It could be FM if the initial outbound trip wasn't heard at for some reason and this was a second trip to collect something to throw away perhaps. Alternatively it's totally unrelated..

This is the problem. The car was heard by the Crabbs but not seen by anyone (but it’s believed that a car can’t enter or leave the area without being seen.)
No one saw this car. Police seem to believe FM disposed of William after FF came home so who was driving the car the Crabbs heard? Unless there’s evidence police have, it leaves it wide open for other possibilities IMO.