Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell * The foster mother has been recommended for charges of pervert the course of justice & interfere with a corpse

[Kurve]

Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:

• Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster mother *Not Guilty
• Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on former foster father *Not Guilty
• 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother *Guilty
• 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
• Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
• Dummy bidding real estate fraud *Guilty

TIMELINE

Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)

Operation Arkstone

 

[stormbird]

I thought that this was the first visit since the foster GF died in February 2014, so about seven months. William would only have been 2YO on the previous (2nd last) visit. I also thought that they had only visited Kendall "as a family" on a handful of occasions. Presumably, some of these would have been when the children were very young - too young to move around independently and/or without supervision. I don't see how they could establish any "usual" or regular patterns of behaviour at FGM's property. William at 3YO would have probably been capable of navigating around the property, but surely he wasn't regularly left to do so independently and unsupervised?

I also wonder what sort of relationship William and his sister actually had with the foster grandparents, given this infrequent contact. We are led to believe they had a close relationship, but how is this possible with so few contact visits? And why were there no visits between February 2014 and September 2014? Was the 'closeness' perhaps only with FGF and not FGM? Or more to do with FM's relationship with her parents?

I agree there's room for doubt about whether the outside-for-goodbyes had become a routine at FGM's. If it actually was something they did most times they were there, then why was FF often driving away on his own? There could be lots of reasons*, but I wonder what his were.

I think FM did say twice that they hadn't been back since her dad died. I'll have a look for the other one later but this was from their first public interview:
"And my Dad passed away in February that year so that was really the first time we'd been back since Dad passed away"...
- 9 News transcript of the Police Media interview, 17 April 2015 (the quote is from about halfway down the web page)

*If it was "usual" for the kids to say goodbye to FF, does that mean it was "usual" for him to drive away on his own? If he actually drove away many or most of the times they were there, was it to make work calls? Did his job require him to work all hours? Was he doing extra work or weekend work because he was ambitious? Was he doing extra/weekend work because they had financial troubles? Did he want to claim the weekends away as a tax deduction if he did some work during? Did he go off 4WDing, leaving FM at home to look after the rowdy children? Did he do the grocery run? Did he go off to get takeways? Did he have friends in the area? etc.

 

[stormbird]

<snipped>

I think FM did say twice that they hadn't been back since her dad died. I'll have a look for the other one later <snipped>

I found the second quote I was remembering but I had it wrong and FM did not say anything about how long it had been since they were last in Kendall and in fact was talking about something else.

 

[31550]

I found the second quote I was remembering but I had it wrong and FM did not say anything about how long it had been since they were last in Kendall and in fact was talking about something else.

In her March 2015 statement, FM says that William first went to Kendall in the winter of 2012, when he was about 7 months old. She says they went up "every three months or so". She suggests that FF visited Kendall (on his own) more often than that.
In the TV interview with Michael Usher, FM said the Sep 2014 visit was the first time they had been up 'as a family' since her father died (Feb 2014).

If they went "every 3 months or so", on the first few visits William would not have been old enough to walk or move around the property independently. From about mid-2013 he would then (by my reckoning) have visited maybe 4 or 5 times (according to FM) before "Opa" died. Then once more in September 2014.

 

[stormbird]

In her March 2015 statement, FM says that William first went to Kendall in the winter of 2012, when he was about 7 months old. She says they went up "every three months or so". She suggests that FF visited Kendall (on his own) more often than that.
In the TV interview with Michael Usher, FM said the Sep 2014 visit was the first time they had been up 'as a family' since her father died (Feb 2014).

If they went "every 3 months or so", on the first few visits William would not have been old enough to walk or move around the property independently. From about mid-2013 he would then (by my reckoning) have visited maybe 4 or 5 times (according to FM) before "Opa" died. Then once more in September 2014.

31550, I think I'm missing your point, sorry. I don't understand how it makes a difference whether William visited 4, 5, or 450 times. The number of visits doesn't tell me where or whether William usually went outside to say goodbye to FF, or whether he was able to use the doors and steps by himself, but maybe you're interested in different questions.

FM should have known that William was about 12 months old in the winter of 2012 (he was born 26 June 2011) and her witness statement doesn't specify his age at their first visit, or not that I could see.

The post 7,341 (redacted) version of FM's witness statement doesn't have her suggesting that FF made visits to Kendall on his own (again: not that I could see) but if she did say that somewhere that would be interesting, IMO. Does FF have any personal or work connections to the area?

And I think the Michael Usher/60 Minutes interview doesn't have FM saying the Sep 2014 visit was the first time they'd been to FGM's as a family since her dad died, but it seems vaguely familiar, so maybe she said it somewhere else?

 

[31550]

31550, I think I'm missing your point, sorry. I don't understand how it makes a difference whether William visited 4, 5, or 450 times. The number of visits doesn't tell me where or whether William usually went outside to say goodbye to FF, or whether he was able to use the doors and steps by himself, but maybe you're interested in different questions.

FM should have known that William was about 12 months old in the winter of 2012 (he was born 26 June 2011) and her witness statement doesn't specify his age at their first visit, or not that I could see.

The post 7,341 (redacted) version of FM's witness statement doesn't have her suggesting that FF made visits to Kendall on his own (again: not that I could see) but if she did say that somewhere that would be interesting, IMO. Does FF have any personal or work connections to the area?

And I think the Michael Usher/60 Minutes interview doesn't have FM saying the Sep 2014 visit was the first time they'd been to FGM's as a family since her dad died, but it seems vaguely familiar, so maybe she said it somewhere else?

OK, it was FM's (police?) interview which aired on TV, but not the Michael Usher one, where she says:

I took the photo, I took three photos, I do photo books, of what we do as a family​

every year. So every time we go somewhere I have my camera and I just take pictures​

of what they’re doing, and I thought Mum’s getting old, be really good for William and​

his sister to have memories of being at Mum’s. And my Dad passed away in February​

that year so that was really the first time we’d been back since Dad passed away, and​

we were going to go visit Dad’s grave, they were drawing some pictures to put on his​

grave, they were sending messages to Opa and things like that.​

In her police statement (March 2015) FM says:

We visited my mother and father with William and, [William's Sister] usually about every ​

three months or so when where we go up to Kendall and stay at mums' house at least for a​

few nights at a time.​

... and later

We had arranged to go up to my mother's house on 12/09/2014 . [MFC]speaks with my mother all the time and he had organised this visit. ​

Typically, [MFC] will just tell me that he has arranged to go up and see my mother and I would just say ok and ask when we were going​

In FF's police interview with Jubelin in 2016 he is specifically asked how many times William had been to Kendall (Q175) and he answers

Probably about half a dozen​

​

I don't know if half a dozen visits is enough for a 3YO to establish a reliable pattern of behaviour, or even enough to form a relationship with the foster mother's parents. Maybe.

I also find it interesting that it was FF who interacted with her parents. ("He speaks with my mother all the time"). This comment, together with FM's account of riding trail bikes around the property, and local knowledge, suggested to me that maybe he spent more time in Kendall than his wife in the few years before William disappeared. That's just my assumption.

 

[stormbird]

In the Where's William Tyrrell? podcast, Lia Harris says the police found CCTV cameras at the Kendall bottle shop, op shop, and club, but established that the only camera which could have captured images of vehicles going towards Benaroon Drive was at the tennis club. (transcripts below)

But in Searching for Spiderman, Ally Chumley says the bottle shop "had a security camera that would've captured images of people entering and leaving the General Store. Police emphasised to [Kendall Cellars] the importance of retaining any CCTV footage captured immediately before and after the critical timeframe." (Searching for Spiderman, 2020, p.198)

So, what was the problem with the cameras or images from the bottle shop, the op shop, and club?

If it's correct that the bottle shop camera could see as far as the entrance to the general store - is that correct? - then it should have been able to see vehicles moving along Comboyne Street past the general store, post office, and takeway shop, and potentially to/from Jackson Street and Albert Street and the Community Centre. From that area a vehicle could go to Batar Creek Road via either (1) Jackson St and Laurel St, or (2) Albert St, and then go to Benaroon Drive; or a 4WD could continue down Albert St and get to Benaroon Drive by driving around through Kendall State Forest.

Google Maps Street View in September 2022 from out the front of the current bottle shop (14 Comboyne Street) looking towards the general store down the hill and across the road (9 Comboyne St).

---

From Where's William Tyrrell | Ep. 4 | Aftermath on YouTube, from 8:06 minutes:

Lia Harris: Yeah, so as the hours wore on and still there was no sign of William they did start to consider other possibilities, which included who was coming to and from Benaroon Drive on that day. So, as part of that, two senior constables from the local police attended local businesses and one of those officers, Senior Constable Rowley, actually wrote about it in his police statement. And this is not his real voice:

[Actor as Senior Constable ROWLEY]:
"We then proceeded to check on local businesses in Kendall to see who had CCTV. Those that did were requested to preserve the footage over the last few days. Kendall Bottle Shop, Kendall Op Shop, Kendall Club and Kendall Tennis Club were premises that had CCTV and were going to preserve it."

And from the same episode, from 10:40 minutes:

Natarsha Belling: And what about the security vision - so, police had searched and spoken to a lot of the local businesses and they were able to get some security vision.

Lia Harris: They soon established that the only security camera in the area which could have captured any cars coming towards Benaroon Drive that day was at the local tennis club, which was just around the corner on Orana Street [*no it wasn't; see below]. The camera showed one of two possible routes to Benaroon Drive though, so you can take another route that isn't captured by that camera. And it took them some time to actually get access to that vision, but eventually they did work out how to get the vision from the system. Unfortunately, though, the passing cars that were captured by the camera could only be seen in a small part of the frame and you couldn't actually see any of the licence plates. So all they were able to do was capture images of parts of the vehicles and sort of get a vague description of what those vehicles looked like. And that's why the police actually later asked all the residents in Kendall and anyone who might have been passing through to come forward and identify which one was their car.
(Transcripts by me.)

*Lia had previously reported that in 2014 the tennis club camera was in Graham Street:
Investigators focus on CCTV footage in the search for missing toddler William Tyrell, Daily Telegraph (not paywalled), 15 Nov 2014

 

[31550]

JS's hearing for telling porkies has been brought forward to April 4-5. Does anyone know if the Prosecution or the Defence initiated this and why?

I think these dates are set by the court based on what is presented by both parties.
If you search the court lists by case number (2022/00289241) you will find the following:
The case went to court for bail review and mention (other) on the 15th March.
It is down for further mention (Police) on 22 March.
The hearing is set for 4th and 5th April.

Does anyone know the nature of the accusation?
It turned out that FM's charges for "lying to NSWCC" were related to her denial that she hit a child with a wooden spoon. The court found that this was not a 'deliberate lie'. So, it pretty much dissolved into nothing, and had very little if anything to do with William.

Are FF's "lying" charges of a similar nature, or could they be something actually relevant to William?

 

[stormbird]

Something I just spotted in a list of speeches to NSW Parliament by the Hon. Leslie Williams, MP: two of the police officers who were prominent in the early days of the investigation into William's disappearance - Paul Fehon and Kim Fehon - retired last year:

Community Recognition Notices: Local Police Officers Retire (Hansard & House Papers, Parliament of New South Wales, 20 October 2022)

Mrs LESLIE WILLIAMS (Port Macquarie): "I rise to recognise some of the finest and highly decorated NSW police officers in my electorate who recently retired from active service, completing a combined 323 years in the Force, protecting and serving our communities.
Our community is indebted to these outstanding men and women in the many and varied roles they played across District serving on average 30 plus years.
It was an honour to attend the farewell celebration on 30th September at The Westport Club to acknowledge the retirement of former Superintendent Mid North Coast Local Area Command, Paul Fehon APM. Paul's service and remarkable career spanned 43 years. His retirement on 15 September 2022 concludes decades worth of achievements and advancements in roles including criminal investigation, internal investigative unit experience, senior management positions, a National Crime Authority secondment and years overseeing local area commands.
On behalf of our community I extend our thanks and best wishes to each of the nine officers on their retirement:
Superintendent Paul Fehon APM,
Detective Chief Inspector Kim Fehon,
Chief Inspector Peter Neville,
Sergeant Paul Dilley APM,
Detective Sergeant David Shaw,
Sergeant Ron Mudford,
Sergeant Richard Hall,
Senior Constable Neville Styles and
Senior Constable Steven Cherry."

 

[stormbird]

NSW appeals $1.5m awarded to former Tyrrell suspect, AAP News, 22 March 2023

"A landmark judgment of a $1.5 million payout in damages to a former suspect in the disappearance of NSW toddler William Tyrrell has been challenged.
...
The State of NSW is now fighting the judge's findings in the NSW Court of Appeal. A two-day appeal hearing will take place from June 13."

 

[BFew]

The State of NSW is now fighting the judge's findings in the NSW Court of Appeal. A two-day appeal hearing will take place from June 13."

Unless there is a change in NSW State Government after this weekend's election, and the new Government drops the appeal.

 

[31550]

Unless there is a change in NSW State Government after this weekend's election, and the new Government drops the appeal.

So you believe the appeal to be politically motivated, rather than based on points of law?

 

[BFew]

So you believe the appeal to be politically motivated, rather than based on points of law?

Nowhere did I indicate what would happen, or give my opinion.

I just pointed out one of the alternative possibilities to how things might play out.

And just in case you are wondering, I'm not going to answer your loaded question.
And I don't have to justify why.
Doesn't take much to go on my ignore/cancelled list nowadays.
FYI: you're the only one from BF on it now.

 

[stormbird]

Unless there is a change in NSW State Government after this weekend's election, and the new Government drops the appeal.

Could any government do that, though? Separation of powers and all that - I don't know how it works or even who "State of NSW" actually is.

Who would have decided to launch the appeal, for example? Would NSW Police Force have had any say in it or is the case run by whichever department or insurance company has to pay the damages and costs?

And what are they appealing anyway? (The article doesn't really say, I think.) Are they arguing about the law or the size of the payout?

 

[31550]

Nowhere did I indicate what would happen, or give my opinion.

I just pointed out one of the alternative possibilities to how things might play out.

And just in case you are wondering, I'm not going to answer your loaded question.
And I don't have to justify why.
Does't take much to go on my ignore/cancelled list nowadays.
FYI: you're the only one from BF on it now.

I guess you won't see this, but I was just wondering why a new government would drop a legal action instituted by the previous government, as you have suggested this might happen. The only thing I can think of is a difference in politics, but feel free to enlighten us.

 

[stormbird]

Thanks, Liandra!

So: on 22 March 2023 in the Court of Appeal:
Case name: Appeal: State of New South Wales v William Harrie Spedding
Case number: 2022/00368706
Listing type: Directions (Notice of Appeal)

But then two days later, 24 March 2023, in the Supreme Court, the original case is still going on:
Case name: William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales
Case number: 2019/00289937
Listing type: Motion
(There's something on NSW Caselaw which I think relates to this: Spedding v State of New South Wales [2023] NSWSC 34
- a decision by Justice Harrison on 02 Feb 2023 about costs and interest on damages.)

I wish someone would explain what's going on.

I just checked the NSW Online Registry to see whether William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales is still listed for the Supreme Court tomorrow (24 Mar 2023), and no it isn't: no results for "Date = Next 3 weeks" or "Date = All available dates".

 

[BFew]

I just checked the NSW Online Registry to see whether William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales is still listed for the Supreme Court tomorrow (24 Mar 2023), and no it isn't: no results for "Date = Next 3 weeks" or "Date = All available dates".

Maybe the current Government withdrew the charges, or reached an out of court settlement.

 

[31550]

I just checked the NSW Online Registry to see whether William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales is still listed for the Supreme Court tomorrow (24 Mar 2023), and no it isn't: no results for "Date = Next 3 weeks" or "Date = All available dates".

The Directions (Notice of Appeal) was in court yesterday (22/3) Case #

2022/00368706

I would assume since this was only heard yesterday, no court date has yet been set and entered into the register for future proceedings in this case (if there are any).

 

[stormbird]

The Directions (Notice of Appeal) was in court yesterday (22/3) Case #

2022/00368706

I would assume since this was only heard yesterday, no court date has yet been set and entered into the register for future proceedings in this case (if there are any).

I'm not sure what "future proceedings" means, but there was a motion listed for tomorrow. Now it's not listed for tomorrow and it's not listed for any other time in the next three weeks.
If what you're suggesting is that the original case (William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales) now has to wait around until an outcome from the appeal, I think you're probably right about that.

 

[31550]

I'm not sure what "future proceedings" means, but there was a motion listed for tomorrow. Now it's not listed for tomorrow and it's not listed for any other time in the next three weeks.
If what you're suggesting is that the original case (William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales) now has to wait around until an outcome from the appeal, I think you're probably right about that.

Not suggesting anything, just noting what's on the court list now. Nothing listed for tomorrow - the only listing currently on the register for this case was for yesterday:

 

[Infofinder]

There were 2 different matters before the court. The matter that was originally listed to be heard on 24th March 2023, which is now removed from the NSW Online Registry, was a 2019 Case number.

 

[31550]

There were 2 different matters before the court. The matter that was originally listed to be heard on 24th March 2023, which is now removed from the NSW Online Registry, was a 2019 Case number.

View attachment 1637071

If the 2022 case is actually the appeal against the 2019 case, it seems logical that the 2019 case cannot proceed until the appeal is resolved. That may explain why the 2019 matter was removed from the registry?

 

[stormbird]

Returning to the "security vision" that police retrieved from the Kendall Tennis Club (post 7,960), Lia Harris said that "it took [the police] some time to actually get access to that vision, but eventually they did work out how to get the vision from the system".
- Where's William Tyrrell podcast | Ep. 4 | Aftermath on YouTube, from 11:07 minutes (my transcript)

Is there more information about this somewhere? My questions:

• What was the "security vision": was it a series of still images already, or did police convert it into images later?
• Who collected it?
• Why did it take them some time to "get access"? If there was a problem, was any part of the vision lost?
• Why was the camera installed, and when?
• Had anyone ever checked the vision before?
• Who decided which way to point the camera?

 

[stormbird]

From the inquest hearing on 7 October 2020 - six years after William disappeared:

'Det Chief Insp Laidlaw [said] there are "a number" of cars captured on CCTV from the Kendall Tennis Club on the day William vanished that "we can't or have yet to identify".'

- tweet by Lia Harris @LiaJHarris, 7 Oct 2020

 

[31550]

Returning to the "security vision" that police retrieved from the Kendall Tennis Club (post 7,960), Lia Harris said that "it took [the police] some time to actually get access to that vision, but eventually they did work out how to get the vision from the system".
- Where's William Tyrrell podcast | Ep. 4 | Aftermath on YouTube, from 11:07 minutes (my transcript)

Is there more information about this somewhere? My questions:

• What was the "security vision": was it a series of still images already, or did police convert it into images later?
• Who collected it?
• Why did it take them some time to "get access"? If there was a problem, was any part of the vision lost?
• Why was the camera installed, and when?
• Had anyone ever checked the vision before?
• Who decided which way to point the camera?

The tennis club CCTV is discussed in some detail in both Overington and Chumley's books. It is also mentioned in Wendy Hudson's case notes, which I think have been posted earlier in this thread.
Hudson was the tennis club president and had access to the cameras, but it is noted in several sources that one of the tennis club cameras was not actually operational on the day William disappeared. There was also some technical difficulty which led to some delay in retrieving footage from the working camera.
Other than what has been disclosed in the books and Wendy's notes, I am confident that police would know the answers your questions, but I am doubtful they would make the answers publicly available while the case is still in progress.

 

[stormbird]

The tennis club CCTV is discussed in some detail in both Overington and Chumley's books. It is also mentioned in Wendy Hudson's case notes, which I think have been posted earlier in this thread.
Hudson was the tennis club president and had access to the cameras, but it is noted in several sources that one of the tennis club cameras was not actually operational on the day William disappeared. There was also some technical difficulty which led to some delay in retrieving footage from the working camera.
Other than what has been disclosed in the books and Wendy's notes, I am confident that police would know the answers your questions, but I am doubtful they would make the answers publicly available while the case is still in progress.

From what I've seen in this thread you've referred to Wendy Hudson's notes several times but you've posted only a paragraph from a typed statement (post 7,471) and a snippet from her hand-written notes (post 7,493).

If the documents look suitable for public viewing and if you're ever feeling public-spirited, please consider posting them in full.

I'll have another look through the Overington and Chumley books, but I think that neither of them addressed these questions.