Do we have the worst under 25 in the Comp?

[Kirby]

Moore, Daicos Bros- F/S
IQ, Cox, Checkers and JFN were not young talent found in the draft.

What "that" list clearly shows is that we are no good at identifying young talent at the draft.
It is no wonder, we keep giving away draft picks for players, our talent identification is poor.

No matter what rose colored glasses you look through, there has been way too many busts over the last decade.

I am grateful for the flag but alot of that came from finding players that filled a need.
This is vastly different from being able to find a talented 18yo.

So just don't count the ones you don't like as they don't suit your argument and change the goalposts so that it's only 18 year olds?

 

[jakson68]

So just don't count the ones you don't like as they don't suit your argument and change the goalposts so that it's only 18 year olds?

That is the whole argument though, so I am not trying to pick and choose anything.
We cannot find talented kids in the draft.

Yes we may be able to find a player to suit a need but to find players from the under 18s comp, is something we have struggled with.

 

[loki04]

Given that list includes someone called Nick Daicos I'm going to go with no , I don't care if all the rest are spuds

You don't want to waste nicks career through stubborn defiance in hitting the draft whilst Nick is young so a talented group can grow with him.

Waiting till Moore, Degoey and Maynard finish in 4 years will have ND be 25 and in his prime whilst we have "rebuilding". Basically wasting his 24 to 29 years.
What a horrible strategy.

Better to hit it now whilst he is developing himself and only 21, that will have the team rising as Nick hits his prime age 24 and should last out his career if done right.

Tasmania dilutes the draft but there will still be picks inside the top 7 to be had. Also trades that could land picks.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Moore, Daicos Bros- F/S
IQ, Cox, Checkers and JFN were not young talent found in the draft.

Moore, Daicos Bros may have F/S, but they were still drafted. We didn’t have to match the bid for Moore and Nick. And there have been F/S we’ve passed on.

IQ may have been next gen, but it was still up to us to draft him. We’ve passed on Next Gen players before.

Cox may not have been drafted, but he was still a successful talent identification. And isn’t that the whole point of what Hine does?

Mihocek may not have come through the young talent pathway, but why does that matter? If Hine picks up Noel from the Nursing Home, if Noel ends up becoming a Premiership player (as Mihocek and Cox have) does it really matter how he got to the club?

 

[jakson68]

Moore, Daicos Bros may have F/S, but they were still drafted. We didn’t have to match the bid for Moore and Nick. And there have been F/S we’ve passed on.

IQ may have been next gen, but it was still up to us to draft him. We’ve passed on Next Gen players before.

Cox may not have been drafted, but he was still a successful talent identification. And isn’t that the whole point of what Hine does?

Mihocek may not have come through the young talent pathway, but why does that matter? If Hine picks up Noel from the Nursing Home, if Noel ends up becoming a Premiership player (as Mihocek and Cox have) does it really matter how he got to the club?

I am not dismissing the fact that we have acquired some talented players but for those that struggle with comprehension I will try one more time.

WE STRUGGLE TO FIND TALENT COMING THROUGH THE UNDER 18s PROGRAM!

Perhaps the club may need to give Hine more assistance in this space.
Maybe Hine just isn't up to it in this space.

I don't know the answer, all I am stating is the fact that we have been very poor in this component of drafting.

Perhaps we should trust our development system, instead of our talent identification and use our poor picks to grab some out of favour young mids to help Nick.

Maybe a Phillips, or Tsatas.

 

[loki04]

Moore, Daicos Bros may have F/S, but they were still drafted. We didn’t have to match the bid for Moore and Nick. And there have been F/S we’ve passed on.

IQ may have been next gen, but it was still up to us to draft him. We’ve passed on Next Gen players before.

Cox may not have been drafted, but he was still a successful talent identification. And isn’t that the whole point of what Hine does?

Mihocek may not have come through the young talent pathway, but why does that matter? If Hine picks up Noel from the Nursing Home, if Noel ends up becoming a Premiership player (as Mihocek and Cox have) does it really matter how he got to the club?

They were never not matching bids on Moore and Nick.

Not even contemplated by anyone.

 

[loki04]

I am not dismissing the fact that we have acquired some talented players but for those that struggle with comprehension I will try one more time.

WE STRUGGLE TO FIND TALENT COMING THROUGH THE UNDER 18s PROGRAM!

Perhaps the club may need to give Hine more assistance in this space.
Maybe Hine just isn't up to it in this space.

I don't know the answer, all I am stating is the fact that we have been very poor in this component of drafting.

Perhaps we should trust our development system, instead of our talent identification and use our poor picks to grab some out of favour young mids to help Nick.

Maybe a Phillips, or Tsatas.

Would be an interesting exercise to look at Hine with Jason Taylor and without, who became Melbourne's recruiter.

The other issue is he lost his scouting network when the club stripped his team back to bare bones.

 

[76woodenspooners]

WE STRUGGLE TO FIND TALENT COMING THROUGH THE UNDER 18s PROGRAM!

(1) Do we really? Henry, Ginnivan, McCreery and Harrison clearly weren’t failures in u18s talent identification. Jury is still out on Demattia, Jiath, Smit, Allan, Macrae, Steene, Ryan, and McInnis - if 2 or 3 of those start cementing a spot in the seniors then things could look quite different.

(2) Maybe it just means that we see more value in other talent pathways? Any spot we give to a mature ager is a spot we’re not giving to an u18. And if we get a better hit rate with mature agers than we get with u18’s, why wouldn’t we give mature agers preference?

(3) If there is a problem, how do you know it is with u18 talent acquisition? Maybe we have a problem with our development program? Maybe we have prioritised our soft cap on tactical coaches rather than development coaches? How would we know?

 

[jakson68]

(1) Do we really? Henry, Ginnivan, McCreery and Harrison clearly weren’t failures in u18s talent identification. Jury is still out on Demattia, Jiath, Smit, Allan, Macrae, Steene, Ryan, and McInnis - if 2 or 3 of those start cementing a spot in the seniors then things could look quite different.

(2) Maybe it just means that we see more value in other talent pathways? Any spot we give to a mature ager is a spot we’re not giving to an u18. And if we get a better hit rate with mature agers than we get with u18’s, why wouldn’t we give mature agers preference?

(3) If there is a problem, how do you know it is with u18 talent acquisition? Maybe we have a problem with our development program? Maybe we have prioritised our soft cap on tactical coaches rather than development coaches? How would we know?

Well I do appreciate your glass half full attitude.

There just seems to be way more busts than hits with our drafting.
We snagged a flag last year, which was awesome.
But bringing in a Frampton, Markov, Mitchell and the like, is not a formular for sustained success.

Eventually we need to find and grow some A grade youngsters.

And not just F/S that are gifted to us.

 

[Axl the great]

Probably but it’s hard to knock them because a lot of it has been the problems of the previous regimes really.
The fact that the new regime that arrived in 22 has managed to patch up a list with little draft capital, salary cap busted and a loo sided age profile to not bottom out and make a prelim and then salute the year after was genius.

We made some shrewd moves with guys like Bobby Hill and Lipinski
McStay has been unlucky but I think will be good over the course of it.
Mitchell already delivered irrespective of what happens from here.

However, we do need to trust our next crop more.
We don’t know how good some of them can be at the level because we don’t expose them long enough consistently.

But on paper, outside of Naicos, Mccreery, Bobby Hill(I think he is under 25) and IQ we don’t have much screaming off the paper

That’s the issue you look at most teams and they all have young stars, like guys who are really making a difference and are relied upon and delivering.
Our young guys apart from Nick are just bit players, do they contribute? Sure sometimes, but they don’t have major impact from game to game.
Personally I hate the ‘role player’ label.
I think it restricts young guys long term and allows a lot of players old and young to hide behind minimal contributions, and when they get exposed when more is required of them through injuries and the like they are simply not up to it.

 

[BuildEmUp]

(1) Do we really? Henry, Ginnivan, McCreery and Harrison clearly weren’t failures in u18s talent identification. Jury is still out on Demattia, Jiath, Smit, Allan, Macrae, Steene, Ryan, and McInnis - if 2 or 3 of those start cementing a spot in the seniors then things could look quite different.

(2) Maybe it just means that we see more value in other talent pathways? Any spot we give to a mature ager is a spot we’re not giving to an u18. And if we get a better hit rate with mature agers than we get with u18’s, why wouldn’t we give mature agers preference?

(3) If there is a problem, how do you know it is with u18 talent acquisition? Maybe we have a problem with our development program? Maybe we have prioritised our soft cap on tactical coaches rather than development coaches? How would we know?

I remember Alistair Clarkson pointing out the patience a club must have with 18 yo. He said most of them, barring an elite few , take up to 4 years to develop ...

 

[BuildEmUp]

Is he a key forward or a key back or an elite mid-fielder? That will determine how hard we use our draft points in 2025 to recruit him. They are non-negotiable requirements that we must prioritise going forward. I am not saying father-son recruits are unimportant but we must strategically recruit to fill the major gaps in our list. We saw what happened with Callum & Tyler Brown who ultimately became superfluous to our club's needs. However with Hine in charge of our recruiting going forward, I am not at all confident. We really need to have recruiting team. End of story. Goodnight & good luck.

Huh? you think we dont have a recruiting team ( whilst every other club does!) ?

 

[jakson68]

Huh? you think we dont have a competent recruiting team ( whilst every other club does!) ?

EFA

 

[BuildEmUp]

EFA

HUH?

 

[Drought Break]

Moore, Daicos Bros- F/S
IQ, Cox, Checkers and JFN were not young talent found in the draft.

What "that" list clearly shows is that we are no good at identifying young talent at the draft.
It is no wonder, we keep giving away draft picks for players, our talent identification is poor.

No matter what rose colored glasses you look through, there has been way too many busts over the last decade.

I am grateful for the flag but alot of that came from finding players that filled a need.
This is vastly different from being able to find a talented 18yo.

Hey he got one right. Murphy

 

[greening22]

Moore, Daicos Bros- F/S
IQ, Cox, Checkers and JFN were not young talent found in the draft.

What "that" list clearly shows is that we are no good at identifying young talent at the draft.
It is no wonder, we keep giving away draft picks for players, our talent identification is poor.

No matter what rose colored glasses you look through, there has been way too many busts over the last decade.

I am grateful for the flag but alot of that came from finding players that filled a need.
This is vastly different from being able to find a talented 18yo.

You are totally correct. As you correctly point out the discussion should be about the ability & capacity of our recruiting team headed by Derek Hine to identify really talented young players - 18 years plus - in the AFL National Draft as a priority & then to a lesser extent in the AFL Rookie Draft & then finally the Mid-Season Draft. However it is the AFL National Draft that should be the benchmark of our recruiting going forward excluding father-son recruits & academy recruits. That also should be the key performance metric of our recruiting staff. Goodnight & good luck.

 

[Fat Jesus]

You are totally correct. As you correctly point out the discussion should be about the ability & capacity of our recruiting team headed by Derek Hine to identify really talented young players - 18 years plus - in the AFL National Draft as a priority & then to a lesser extent in the AFL Rookie Draft & then finally the Mid-Season Draft. However it is the AFL National Draft that should be the benchmark of our recruiting going forward excluding father-son recruits & academy recruits. That also should be the key performance metric of our recruiting staff. Goodnight & good luck.

Not easy unless finishing bottom 4 for a couple of years.
After this it's a lottery

 

[greening22]

I am not dismissing the fact that we have acquired some talented players but for those that struggle with comprehension I will try one more time.

WE STRUGGLE TO FIND TALENT COMING THROUGH THE UNDER 18s PROGRAM!

Perhaps the club may need to give Hine more assistance in this space.
Maybe Hine just isn't up to it in this space.

I don't know the answer, all I am stating is the fact that we have been very poor in this component of drafting.

Perhaps we should trust our development system, instead of our talent identification and use our poor picks to grab some out of favour young mids to help Nick.

Maybe a Phillips, or Tsatas.

Once again you are totally correct. We are talking about the ability & acumen to identify young talent in the AFL National Draft. In recent years apart from Harrison - and the jury is still out on him - I cannot think of one draftee from our selections in the 2020, (excluding Henry) 2021, 2022 & 2023 drafts, respectively, (apart from Harrison) who looks like he is demanding to be playing AFL senior football on the basis of performance. If you can name one - under 25 - then I will be very pleased. Goodnight & good luck.

 

[jathanas]

Moore, Daicos Bros- F/S
IQ, Cox, Checkers and JFN were not young talent found in the draft.

What "that" list clearly shows is that we are no good at identifying young talent at the draft.
It is no wonder, we keep giving away draft picks for players, our talent identification is poor.

No matter what rose colored glasses you look through, there has been way too many busts over the last decade.

I am grateful for the flag but alot of that came from finding players that filled a need.
This is vastly different from being able to find a talented 18yo.

We should all be grateful for the 2023 flag. It's not an achievement that should be qualified with a "but that came from finding players that filled a need".

Interestingly, that year, we beat GWS in the finals; a club that has been gifted many talented 18-year-olds on a silver platter.

Could it be, that talent development is just as important as identification? Who knows.

It seems the tribe is angry about our drafting. It might have nothing to do with the side's current form slump, but OK.

We shouldn't have traded away our '25 first-round draft pick, but this thread has gone on the mother of all tangents.

 

[ZEV]

Interestingly, that year, we beat GWS in the finals; a club that has been gifted many talented 18-year-olds on a silver platter.

Could it be, that talent development is just as important as identification? Who knows.

I think everyone is forgetting that the draft is an equalisation measure.

Like what you said, talent development, alternate pathways are the way to succeed.

If our plan is to emulate everyone rebuilding by going to the draft we are in for a world of pain.

I don't think Sydney taking Braeden Campbell at pick 5 is the reason they are on top of the ladder...

 

[loki04]

We should all be grateful for the 2023 flag. It's not an achievement that should be qualified with a "but that came from finding players that filled a need".

Interestingly, that year, we beat GWS in the finals; a club that has been gifted many talented 18-year-olds on a silver platter.

Could it be, that talent development is just as important as identification? Who knows.

It seems the tribe is angry about our drafting. It might have nothing to do with the side's current form slump, but OK.

We shouldn't have traded away our '25 first-round draft pick, but this thread has gone on the mother of all tangents.

GWS has not been able to keep all that talent so your argument is not entirely correct.

Treloar, Adams, Shiel, Cameron, Himmelberg, lobb, Tomlinson, WHE, n.Wilson, j.Bruce, McCartney, Hill, Sumner, ZWilliams, Jaschk, Corr, Addison, T.Boyd, Marchbank, Hopper, Taranto, Steele, Setterfield, Caldwell…

That is a bloody good lot of players there.

 

[loki04]

I think everyone is forgetting that the draft is an equalisation measure.

Like what you said, talent development, alternate pathways are the way to succeed.

If our plan is to emulate everyone rebuilding by going to the draft we are in for a world of pain.

I don't think Sydney taking Braeden Campbell at pick 5 is the reason they are on top of the ladder...

What about Campbell at 5 with :

Mills. Pick 3 bid match.
Heeney. Pick 2 bid match.
McDonald pick 4.
Blakey pick 10 bid match.

Don’t try make out like Swans haven’t had access to top end draft talents.

 

[ZEV]

GWS has not been able to keep all that talent so your argument is not entirely correct.

Treloar, Adams, Shiel, Cameron, Himmelberg, lobb, Tomlinson, WHE, n.Wilson, j.Bruce, McCartney, Hill, Sumner, ZWilliams, Jaschk, Corr, Addison, T.Boyd, Marchbank, Hopper, Taranto, Steele, Setterfield, Caldwell…

That is a bloody good lot of players there.

Who did himmelberg get traded to?

 

[ZEV]

What about Campbell at 5 with :

Mills. Pick 3 bid match.
Heeney. Pick 2 bid match.
McDonald pick 4.
Blakey pick 10 bid match.

Don’t try make out like Swans haven’t had access to top end draft talents.

That’s my point. They didn’t get them through picks though.

Also who is leading their goalkicking? McDonald or some late pick in the rookie draft?

Also where is Dylan Stephens and Florent in their gun first rounder list

 

[jathanas]

GWS has not been able to keep all that talent so your argument is not entirely correct.

***

Talent identification, talent development, talent retention.

All important.

This thread is fixating on talent identification, and even there it's with a very narrow view.