Coach Do you still have any faith in Bevo? [POLL]

[TiAn_]

The problem is if we keep Bevo it's a higher risk. As he's actually regressed as a coach since 2015/2016.
He's showing no signs that he's changed anything about the way he thinks about the game.

Yeah I think one issue is we're still playing in a way that's more suited to a forward line with one key forward surrounded by Stringer, Dickson, Picken, Clay Smith, Libba, Dunkley, McLean, etc.

 

[lachy]

This brings back memories of the Eade McCartney transition. Supposedly we were good just not quite good enough, and just needed a couple of tweaks from a coach from a successful program. Then right from the start, the new coach couldn't put a foot right, all of a sudden, we somehow went from being a contender to needing to have a full rebuild. Then thankfully following an almost unprecedented player revolt we get a new coach who actually believed in his players, we somehow go straight back into the finals and shortly after we win a flag.

Changing coaches is a big deal, with big consequences, which is why smart administrations shouldn't try to fix things until they are clearly broken.

The regular chop and change coach approach used to go alright back in the old VFL days because there was no salary cap, and the rich clubs essentially shared the flags between them. The coaches didn't matter quite as much, a bit like European soccer leagues.

Now the AFL playing field is a lot more even. Making a bad coaching choice can be the difference between being a contender or spending years in the wilderness.

This is why any decision should be based on a thorough review of the full football department, not a knee jerk decision on a weekly basis as this thread appears to flow on

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[hutchy31]

This is why any decision should be based on a thorough review of the full football department, not a knee jerk decision on a weekly basis as this thread appears to flow on

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There are naturally some who are on the fence, and some who remain entrenched in the Bevo in or out camps. I’m in the latter but understand those who remain agnostic because of how inconsistent the team is.

Imo the club basically hasn’t put a foot right since the third quarter of the 2021 GF, so I completely agree that a full review of the footy department is required. If we didn’t review that game properly (as some reports indicate), went into 2022 with a weird defensive gameplan that saw us shredded on transition by any half decent team, and then only sneaked into finals after grinding out wins against bottom six teams and relying on an all-time choke from the blues, then completely collapsing in that final from a winning position, then how is that the right situation to extend the coach’s contract?

We’ve also become an overly suspicious club, don’t engage half as well with the fans as other clubs seem to, and have a very adversarial relationship with the media. I can absolutely understand the last of these, but it doesn’t help much either.

We’re getting All Australian caliber seasons from probably 4-5 players (Bont, Libba, English, Richards and L.Jones), at least to this point, but are basically even on the ledger having gone only 2-5 against current top eight teams with those only two wins being at home against Brisbane and Adelaide when they are two of the flakiest teams away from home of all the finals contenders.

I’ve got all the evidence I need that a change is required. If it’s a Richmond 2016 like change where the coach remains but most of those around him are replaced, then fair enough. But in my view that might be shuffling deck chairs on the titanic.

 

[immortalmike]

There would be a line from Whitten Oval to Warrnambool of decent coaches wanting to take over this list.

Don't agree. I think we've gone two years too long with our mids.
Our list is almost cooked now or at least will be in 2024.

We need some young mids and another good key back.

 

[doggies ftw]

This brings back memories of the Eade McCartney transition. Supposedly we were good just not quite good enough, and just needed a couple of tweaks from a coach from a successful program. Then right from the start, the new coach couldn't put a foot right, all of a sudden, we somehow went from being a contender to needing to have a full rebuild. Then thankfully following an almost unprecedented player revolt we get a new coach who actually believed in his players, we somehow go straight back into the finals and shortly after we win a flag.

Changing coaches is a big deal, with big consequences, which is why smart administrations shouldn't try to fix things until they are clearly broken.

The regular chop and change coach approach used to go alright back in the old VFL days because there was no salary cap, and the rich clubs essentially shared the flags between them. The coaches didn't matter quite as much, a bit like European soccer leagues.

Now the AFL playing field is a lot more even. Making a bad coaching choice can be the difference between being a contender or spending years in the wilderness.

Agreed but that doesn’t mean you stick with mediocrity because you’re scared of making the wrong decision. If Pies did that they’d still be with Buckley and not a flag contender.

We got the choice wrong with Bmac, we got it very much right with Bev. It’s been 9 years it’s not exactly chopping and changing. This spark has now faded. We’re not contenders, no where near a contender - we could be, but we’re not. If we keep going down this path we’ll struggle to win another final for the next few years before we completely bottom out and need a full rebuild.

This can be salvaged, but we need to make a decision now:

 

[doggies ftw]

We’re getting All Australian caliber seasons from probably 4-5 players (Bont, Libba, English, Richards and L.Jones), at least to this point, but are basically even on the ledger having gone only 2-5 against current top eight teams with those only two wins being at home against Brisbane and Adelaide when they are two of the flakiest teams away from home of all the finals contenders.

This really says it all doesn’t it, nearly a qtr of the team genuinely in AA form. Hell we had 3 of the top 5 players in the comp according to Champion Data for most of the season, some others in career best form or close to it ie Treloar, CD, Williams, Marra

And yet we can’t beat any half decent sides, the system is entirely broken.

I think I read we’re something like 3-14 against top 8 sides in the last 2 years. That’s unacceptable

 

[Proffessor]

This is why any decision should be based on a thorough review of the full football department, not a knee jerk decision on a weekly basis as this thread appears to flow on

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I agree that it shouldn’t be decided by knee jerk decisions, but simply cannot support the 'review' approach.

As I’ve stated previously, I’m not a fan of reviews. If our elected club leaders need someone else to tell them how things are going then they should resign.

 

[Dogman 1]

This is not a knee jerk reaction. Been like it for years. Spiralling downward since flag and even playing in grand final in 2021 was something we should never have done, just look how we performed in the last 40 minutes of that game. Bevo did nothing to halt Melbourne's onslaught.

 

[Proffessor]

Agreed but that doesn’t mean you stick with mediocrity because you’re scared of making the wrong decision. If Pies did that they’d still be with Buckley and not a flag contender.

We got the choice wrong with Bmac, we got it very much right with Bev. It’s been 9 years it’s not exactly chopping and changing. This spark has now faded. We’re not contenders, no where near a contender - we could be, but we’re not. If we keep going down this path we’ll struggle to win another final for the next few years before we completely bottom out and need a full rebuild.

This can be salvaged, but we need to make a decision now:

Collingwood is a very different club and were in a different situation to the Bulldogs, when they made their replacement choice, which I agree looks a good one. However, it still hasn't won anything under McCrae yet.

We are still a contender for this year's flag. Based on Friday's evidence we are a couple of umpiring decisions, selection tweaks and\or form fluctuations away from beating other top rated teams.

People just need to calm down a bit and see how things play out over the next year and a half, before even thinking about it.

 

[Sharpiesadog]

Collingwood is a very different club and were in a different situation to the Bulldogs, when they made their replacement choice, which I agree looks a good one. However, it still hasn't won anything under McCrae yet.

We are still a contender for this year's flag. Based on Friday's evidence we are a couple of umpiring decisions, selection tweaks and\or form fluctuations away from beating other top rated teams.

People just need to calm down a bit and see how things play out over the next year and a half, before even thinking about it.

I see your point, but I would argue the Bevo out posse are not just going by Friday’s evidence.

if we had a good win/loss record against top 8 teams over the last 2 years, fair enough. But we don’t, we come up short nearly every time, generally due to the same issues that never seem to be addressed, or, heaven forbid, fixed. I don’t believe we are a contender for this year’s flag. We need a new voice a (new) game plan and a few new ideas.

 

[Freshwater]

Agreed but that doesn’t mean you stick with mediocrity because you’re scared of making the wrong decision. If Pies did that they’d still be with Buckley and not a flag contender.

We got the choice wrong with Bmac, we got it very much right with Bev. It’s been 9 years it’s not exactly chopping and changing. This spark has now faded. We’re not contenders, no where near a contender - we could be, but we’re not. If we keep going down this path we’ll struggle to win another final for the next few years before we completely bottom out and need a full rebuild.

This can be salvaged, but we need to make a decision now:

100% now IS the time. We have seen him for 9 years, we know what we will get, a limp into finals if lucky, out first or second week. Another wasted season with this talented group. Or rip the band aid off quickly, it will hurt a bit but ultimately has to be done. Caretaker for half a year, then find the right candidate and assistants too. The whole coaching group needs to be replaced, but carefully chosen. Time is not necessarily on our side, time for the board to act is now. But it seems they are too into their functions and patting themselves on their backs at the moment.

 

[dogwatch]

This is why any decision should be based on a thorough review of the full football department, not a knee jerk decision on a weekly basis as this thread appears to flow on

How likely do you think a full football department review is? Or that we'll get any evidence from the club that it was full and objective, and hopefully independent? I think we've heard that some sort of reviews have happened over recent years but to my recollection we have never seen anything about who the reviewers were, what their terms of reference were and the governance of the review, let alone any of their findings and recommendations. (Not all findings and recommendations can be released of course.) In short, do we have any confidence that the club would even do this, and then would they do it properly and with a reasonable level of transparency?

I agree that it shouldn’t be decided by knee jerk decisions, but simply cannot support the 'review' approach.

As I’ve stated previously, I’m not a fan of reviews. If our elected club leaders need someone else to tell them how things are going then they should resign.

This is the alternative to a review and is a legitimate approach, but if they are indeed taking the executive judgement approach, our elected club leaders (and also those appointed, like the CEO) have not inspired a whole lot of confidence in us regarding the issues raised in this thread. That's not to say they haven't done their job properly or that they aren't actually doing things behind the scenes, just that we aren't seeing anything much that addresses the concerns raised here. I understand some things must remain confidential but in my view the workings of the club are more opaque than they need to be. In the absence of assurances that topical issues are being addressed in a businesslike manner it's only human nature that the paying stakeholders (the fans and members) will make their own assumptions. Those assumptions might or might not be correct but will develop a life of their own, as we are seeing in this thread.

All we've seen so far is an extension of Bevo's contract for two years which seemed eyebrow-raisingly premature and generous to a lot of observers (media, fans and reportedly even Bevo himself). Of course we don't know the full terms and whether the club has escape clauses in case of poor performance, but it has hardly settled the consternation among many fans.

So while the "faith in Bevo" question is still an issue there is also an underlying issue emerging of whether we have faith in the administration regarding the whole coaching set-up and their performance. While I'm still happy to wait until the end of the season I would be concerned if the club does not demonstrate a level of urgency and high expectation regarding the side's performance and trajectory. That urgency can be demonstrated in a number of ways, not all of which entail sacking the head coach.

I wait in hope more than expectation.

 

[Nat Fyfe]

Don't agree. I think we've gone two years too long with our mids.
Our list is almost cooked now or at least will be in 2024.

We need some young mids and another good key back.

I don't think it's anything that would take long to address. We've always got the option of moving Naughton back, or a new coach recruiting a KPD from their previous club (picking a random name, Yze from the Demons might try to bring over Petty). As for mids, it doesn't take long for new players to have an impact, especially over the last few years. You just need one or two early picks to completely overhaul the look of our midfield in the next few years, and it's not unreasonable to continue running Bont, Libba, Treloar and Macrae through there for another couple years until they start to drop off

 

[Proffessor]

I see your point, but I would argue the Bevo out posse are not just going by Friday’s evidence.

if we had a good win/loss record against top 8 teams over the last 2 years, fair enough. But we don’t, we come up short nearly every time, generally due to the same issues that never seem to be addressed, or, heaven forbid, fixed. I don’t believe we are a contender for this year’s flag. We need a new voice a (new) game plan and a few new ideas.

People need to think more wholistically when you consider the impacts of changing the coach of an AFL club, especially one who has been as successful as Bevo has been for us.

You will certainly be damaging many relationships and reputations, and there will be a high risk that you will be causing such certain damage in order to install a coach who will be worse rather than better.

When and how you change coaches will also have an impact on the next coach's chances of success, so even if you make a reasonable choice of replacement, if you screw up the transition, you may severely diminish their chances of future success.

I think it would be a very bad idea for the club to even consider changing coach at this time.

 

[yebach]

People need to think more wholistically when you consider the impacts of changing the coach of an AFL club, especially one who has been as successful as Bevo has been for us.

You will certainly be damaging many relationships and reputations, and there will be a high risk that you will be causing such certain damage in order to install a coach who will be worse rather than better.

When and how you change coaches will also have an impact on the next coach's chances of success, so even if you make a reasonable choice of replacement, if you screw up the transition, you may severely diminish their chances of future success.

I think it would be a very bad idea for the club to even consider changing coach at this time.

So when would you recommend we get rid of Bevo? If at all?
What would need to happen for you to lose your faith in him?

 

[Proffessor]

So when would you recommend we get rid of Bevo? If at all?
What would need to happen for you to lose your faith in him?

I think there is a good chance we will be contenders both this season and next year with Bevo at the helm.
I also think there is a reasonable chance if things don't go as well as we all hope that he might want to move on before the club might want to push him out.

Regardless of how things go, I think having an amicable separation is very important for all parties involved. Remember he is our only living premiership coach.

In the last few decades this club has gone from one fighting for survival, and barely achieving that aim, to a regular finals contender. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot because of overzealous expectations, like so many other clubs have done throughout history.

 

[Proffessor]

How likely do you think a full football department review is? Or that we'll get any evidence from the club that it was full and objective, and hopefully independent? I think we've heard that some sort of reviews have happened over recent years but to my recollection we have never seen anything about who the reviewers were, what their terms of reference were and the governance of the review, let alone any of their findings and recommendations. (Not all findings and recommendations can be released of course.) In short, do we have any confidence that the club would even do this, and then would they do it properly and with a reasonable level of transparency?

This is the alternative to a review and is a legitimate approach, but if they are indeed taking the executive judgement approach, our elected club leaders (and also those appointed, like the CEO) have not inspired a whole lot of confidence in us regarding the issues raised in this thread. That's not to say they haven't done their job properly or that they aren't actually doing things behind the scenes, just that we aren't seeing anything much that addresses the concerns raised here. I understand some things must remain confidential but in my view the workings of the club are more opaque than they need to be. In the absence of assurances that topical issues are being addressed in a businesslike manner it's only human nature that the paying stakeholders (the fans and members) will make their own assumptions. Those assumptions might or might not be correct but will develop a life of their own, as we are seeing in this thread.

All we've seen so far is an extension of Bevo's contract for two years which seemed eyebrow-raisingly premature and generous to a lot of observers (media, fans and reportedly even Bevo himself). Of course we don't know the full terms and whether the club has escape clauses in case of poor performance, but it has hardly settled the consternation among many fans.

So while the "faith in Bevo" question is still an issue there is also an underlying issue emerging of whether we have faith in the administration regarding the whole coaching set-up and their performance. While I'm still happy to wait until the end of the season I would be concerned if the club does not demonstrate a level of urgency and high expectation regarding the side's performance and trajectory. That urgency can be demonstrated in a number of ways, not all of which entail sacking the head coach.

I wait in hope more than expectation.

The big question Dogwatch is if you were the club administrator, would you risk the ramifications of publicly undermining your proud coach in order to try to settle the anxieties of some of your fans?

I think bringing in Brendon Lade, showed the club is trying to give Bevo some experienced senior support in the way that many on here were calling for. No need to announce it as such and risk upsetting anyone, just take the action you think is most appropriate, and get on with the job.

 

[doggies ftw]

Collingwood is a very different club and were in a different situation to the Bulldogs, when they made their replacement choice, which I agree looks a good one. However, it still hasn't won anything under McCrae yet.

We are still a contender for this year's flag. Based on Friday's evidence we are a couple of umpiring decisions, selection tweaks and\or form fluctuations away from beating other top rated teams.

People just need to calm down a bit and see how things play out over the next year and a half, before even thinking about it.

On paper sure we’re not far away, but personally I’ve watched enough footy to know we’re not a true contender. Not unless things change drastically at least. And I’ve watched enough dogs to under Bevo to know that’s not happening.

All well and good to say oh we’re a few goals off the best look at the scores on the weekend - but it’s just not true. We’re the same team as last year, whenever there’s truly a good side who needs to beat us, say a final, they will destroy us. We are not a contender.

 

[immortalmike]

I don't think it's anything that would take long to address. We've always got the option of moving Naughton back, or a new coach recruiting a KPD from their previous club (picking a random name, Yze from the Demons might try to bring over Petty). As for mids, it doesn't take long for new players to have an impact, especially over the last few years. You just need one or two early picks to completely overhaul the look of our midfield in the next few years, and it's not unreasonable to continue running Bont, Libba, Treloar and Macrae through there for another couple years until they start to drop off

Moving Naughton back would then require us to find a mature key forward. Bruce is or will be cooked, Lobb is a wage theif and Darcy is a child. So back to the good old look for a key forward Bulldogs.

We've been looking for a key back for 5 years and the best we've done is a geriatric antivaxer (who at least has been good).

With our current mids. As we've seen before the end comes quickly. And young mids can impact or they can end up like Fin Macrae.

Think we're heading for a full rebuild.

 

[Freshwater]

When George Washington stood down after two terms (8 years) the crowned heads of Europe couldn’t believe a man would willingly give up power, but was able to live to see the ramifications of his legacy. Jefferson had two terms and stepped down, Madison followed and the precedent was set. FDR in the mid 20th century stuffed up this pattern so they changed the constitution after he gorged himself on 4 terms and died in office. My long point is 8 years is enough for any leader in any organisation. We all saw how Eddie became a tyrant who would have dominated any board meeting at that club. Collingwood was then able to move forward after Eddie’s departure. Politicians on any side become dictatorial after two terms, and lose sight of why they first joined.
Is it money or power or ego or all three that keep them going longer than is best for their own organisation? I think these players as well as other staff at the club need another leader.

 

[dogwatch]

The big question Dogwatch is if you were the club administrator, would you risk the ramifications of publicly undermining your proud coach in order to try to settle the anxieties of some of your fans?

I think bringing in Brendon Lade, showed the club is trying to give Bevo some experienced senior support in the way that many on here were calling for. No need to announce it as such and risk upsetting anyone, just take the action you think is most appropriate, and get on with the job.

It's not about settling the anxiety of the fans. That's just a beneficial downstream effect. It's about getting the right answers that will help achieve the best results for the footy club - both on and off the field.

I'm certainly not looking for any statement like "there! are you happy now?" Hopefully the club would never consider making such a statement. That would be a terrible way to manage and a terrible look.

I was happy to see Lade appointed but really you just have to look at the difference between a club like Geelong paying the surcharge on the soft cap and getting 15 assistant coaches etc compared to our list of about 5-6 such assistants, some of the key ones seemingly under-qualified. (Any idea what our actual total number of assistant coaches is?)

It can certainly be argued that getting the extra coaching support was critical in getting Geelong into the top four and eventually a flag last year. It seems like a sensible path to me. Even if it cost us a few extra 100 grand a year we'd quickly make that up with gate takings and other revenues if the move delivered better performances, more wins and a top 4 finish for us. Instead of only 23,000 attending a Port Adelaide match we'd be getting 30,000+ if we were up there in the top 4 with them.

I'm not suggesting we risk upsetting the troops either. There are plenty of ways to dress up the arrival of more assistant coaches as a universal good. And if it came to replacing Bevo there are also good ways to handle such a separation without acrimony or "trouble at the kennel" type media headlines.

Anyway I was addressing and agreeing with your point that we don't necessarily need a full football department review to create the stimulus for change. It can indeed come straight from the executive and the board. The question is do they have the judgement, the vision, the skill and the willingness to implement significant change where and when it's needed? The jury is out on that for me. They are currently treading a safe path softly-softly but I'm concerned it may turn out not to be ambitious enough for the times.

 

[NBates]

I think there is a good chance we will be contenders both this season and next year with Bevo at the helm.
I also think there is a reasonable chance if things don't go as well as we all hope that he might want to move on before the club might want to push him out.

Regardless of how things go, I think having an amicable separation is very important for all parties involved. Remember he is our only living premiership coach.

In the last few decades this club has gone from one fighting for survival, and barely achieving that aim, to a regular finals contender. Let's not shoot ourselves in the foot because of overzealous expectations, like so many other clubs have done throughout history.

Our club nearly disappeared BECAUSE we didn't hold people to high account

 

[Proffessor]

On paper sure we’re not far away, but personally I’ve watched enough footy to know we’re not a true contender. Not unless things change drastically at least. And I’ve watched enough dogs to under Bevo to know that’s not happening.

All well and good to say oh we’re a few goals off the best look at the scores on the weekend - but it’s just not true. We’re the same team as last year, whenever there’s truly a good side who needs to beat us, say a final, they will destroy us. We are not a contender.

I agree we make it hard for ourselves and it is very frustrating. However, we also need to realise that there are still some serious inequities in the AFL, that do not tilt in our favour.

I'd say the biggest difference between us and Port on Friday was the umpiring. Were there other factors under our control that we could have managed better sure, but the umpiring was a big uncontrollable factor.

Could we get away with the sort of tactics Port employed? No chance.

Our best hope is still to try and have a fit and well-balanced side come finals time and hope for a good run.

 

[Proffessor]

Our club nearly disappeared BECAUSE we didn't hold people to high account

How so?

 

[Proffessor]

It's not about settling the anxiety of the fans. That's just a beneficial downstream effect. It's about getting the right answers that will help achieve the best results for the footy club - both on and off the field.

I'm certainly not looking for any statement like "there! are you happy now?" Hopefully the club would never consider making such a statement. That would be a terrible way to manage and a terrible look.

I was happy to see Lade appointed but really you just have to look at the difference between a club like Geelong paying the surcharge on the soft cap and getting 15 assistant coaches etc compared to our list of about 5-6 such assistants, some of the key ones seemingly under-qualified. (Any idea what our actual total number of assistant coaches is?)

It can certainly be argued that getting the extra coaching support was critical in getting Geelong into the top four and eventually a flag last year. It seems like a sensible path to me. Even if it cost us a few extra 100 grand a year we'd quickly make that up with gate takings and other revenues if the move delivered better performances, more wins and a top 4 finish for us. Instead of only 23,000 attending a Port Adelaide match we'd be getting 30,000+ if we were up there in the top 4 with them.

I'm not suggesting we risk upsetting the troops either. There are plenty of ways to dress up the arrival of more assistant coaches as a universal good. And if it came to replacing Bevo there are also good ways to handle such a separation without acrimony or "trouble at the kennel" type media headlines.

Anyway I was addressing and agreeing with your point that we don't necessarily need a full football department review to create the stimulus for change. It can indeed come straight from the executive and the board. The question is do they have the judgement, the vision, the skill and the willingness to implement significant change where and when it's needed? The jury is out on that for me. They are currently treading a safe path softly-softly but I'm concerned it may turn out not to be ambitious enough for the times.

I wasn't disagreeing with your suggestion that we could benefit from some improvements in the football department, merely pointing out that Bevo is a pretty proud bloke and that any such action would need to be made with both subtlety and serious consideration of his working preferences. So much so they might not be obvious to fans who might dearly want to see some action to prove the board isn't asleep at the wheel, but if that is the case then so be it.

The administration might also decide that some potential improvement actions are not worth the risk due to the fact they are dealing with people who may react very differently to how they might want them to.

I think the Lade recruitment suggests the board is at least paying attention, if not acting in full accordance with your aspirations.