Society/Culture Does the Australian flag have an image problem?

[Soggy2112]

I’d love to see the Union Jack removed from our flag. This is for two reasons.

1. Our countries identity should include the idea of people from all different ethnicities coming together equally under a common nationality - Australian. It shouldn’t prioritise one group of immigrants over another, but that is kind of what our flag does, it implies that descendants from Britain are “more Australian”.
2. Much of the negative parts of our history with Indigenous people were done in the name of the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack flag, I can understand why an Indigenous person would not feel like our current flag represents them.

 

[FredLeDeux]

The whole concept of national flags and national anthems is infantile.
It's time to grow up and dispense with them.

 

[Boston tiger]

I’d love to see the Union Jack removed from our flag. This is for two reasons.

1. Our countries identity should include the idea of people from all different ethnicities coming together equally under a common nationality - Australian. It shouldn’t prioritise one group of immigrants over another, but that is kind of what our flag does, it implies that descendants from Britain are “more Australian”.
2. Much of the negative parts of our history with Indigenous people were done in the name of the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack flag, I can understand why an Indigenous person would not feel like our current flag represents them.

It’s got to look good though . We filled our National Anthem with all the good stuff and it’s crap.

 

[Gough]

Do we get a new flag if Scotland goes independent and the St Andrews Cross is removed from the Union flag? It would be pretty pathetic that after years of agitating for a new flag and we actually get one for that reason.

 

[Schneebly11]

I’d love to see the Union Jack removed from our flag. This is for two reasons.

1. Our countries identity should include the idea of people from all different ethnicities coming together equally under a common nationality - Australian. It shouldn’t prioritise one group of immigrants over another, but that is kind of what our flag does, it implies that descendants from Britain are “more Australian”.

The problem is a lot of British ancestry Australians see themselves as being “real Aussies” ie you have to have a last name like Smith or Jones to be considered an Aussie. Everyone else is a migrant from somewhere else, but Anglo Australians are the “real Australians”.

2. Much of the negative parts of our history with Indigenous people were done in the name of the United Kingdom, and the Union Jack flag, I can understand why an Indigenous person would not feel like our current flag represents them.

Add to the fact a lot of the far right patriot rallies, racist protests and events like the Cronulla riots saw the right wing elements in this country draped in the current flag as they bashed people with brown skin or spewed hateful rhetoric.

I’ll add a good reason #3. There’s very poor symbolism on the current flag. The top left corner of a flag is the canton. When a flag is hanging from a flagpole in light wind the flag droops down with the canton being higher up than the rest of the flag. In vexillogical (the study of flags) terms this signifies that the symbol in the canton is superior to the rest of the flag, that the symbol in the canton has ownership over the rest of the flag. This is why the UK put the Union Jack in the canton of all their colonial flags - it directly says “the UK owns whatever the rest of this flag signifies and we will always be on top of you”. So right now the current Australian flag tells us we have the UK as our masters. Which may be technically true as the constitution says the British monarch is still the head of state and could theoretically overrule decisions of the Australian Governor General and Parliament.

As for those who say that we need to keep the flag because the “diggers fought and died for it” I’ll leave you with the most appropriate quote for that sentiment:

“Wars not make one great” - Yoda

 

[Schneebly11]

It’s got to look good though . We filled our National Anthem with all the good stuff and it’s crap.

But we changed the national anthem as few years back. From “we are young and free to we are one and free”.

So why weren’t the proud Aussie patriots up in arms at this woke virtue signalling move to appease a minority? Because one of their fellow right wing mates (Morrison) did it. If the current ALP government had done the exact same thing I bet Sky News talking heads would be exploding in rage at the “woke virtue signalling lefties” for months

 

[Schneebly11]

Soldiers dies for the country, mates, ideals. Not a piece of cloth

Actually they die for money, power, land acquisition, resources, geopolitics and a half dozen more real factors than fake lofty things like mates or ideals.

 

[Mofra]

Actually they die for money, power, land acquisition, resources, geopolitics and a half dozen more real factors than fake lofty things like mates or ideals.

That's what their sent for. Not what they fight for

 

[Carringbush2010]

So in answer to the question.

Yes it does - to some, to how many we don't know. Likely a minority.

Gets a lotta noise though.

Like it or lump it, the union jack, britain, and the fact that the stolen land we live on was claimed by the undisputed world power of the time (and still is a super power) and those pack of aholes from then represent us in the now. Can't do anything about that, history has happened.

So personally not a fan of the uj, britain being the mother country and all that, but hey I'm not gonna spend a lot of emotional energy in futility about it. Meh.

Fair argument the majority of Australians would share a similar view.

Those who want to, you go knock yourselves out.

 

[Cyg1992]

I’m not sure that’s such a bad thing

It is if they use it to hide behind when being racist. Best example was the Cronulla riots.

If someone wants to use a southern cross, Oz flag or even a photo of an armchair as their national and/or cultural identity, there isn't anything wrong with it at all. Tacky in my opinion, but no harm done.

When they use it as a uniting symbol to create an 'us vs them' divide, then it's a problem.
And that's exactly what has happened, unfortunately.

 

[Cyg1992]

The whole concept of national flags and national anthems is infantile.
It's time to grow up and dispense with them.

Totally agree.

 

[ElectricG]

When they use it as a uniting symbol to create an 'us vs them' divide, then it's a problem.
And that's exactly what has happened, unfortunately.

I know but most of the people here seem to want the new flag to be some sort of middle finger to the flag waving bogans. Which is why I don’t trust anyone to change the flag at the moment.

 

[Cyg1992]

I know but most of the people here seem to want the new flag to be some sort of middle finger to the flag waving bogans. Which is why I don’t trust anyone to change the flag at the moment.

I actually don't really care if the flag is changed or not. It means little to me, like all other world flags for that matter.

More the silly, pseudo patriotic importance placed on it needs to go.

If this pisses off the low IQ bogans in anyway, good.
Time for a spoonful of concrete for the soft campaigners.

 

[ElectricG]

I actually don't really care if the flag is changed or not. It means little to me, like all other world flags for that matter.

More the silly, pseudo patriotic importance placed on it needs to go.

If this pisses off the low IQ bogans in anyway, good.
Time for a spoonful of concrete for the soft campaigners.

Isn’t that the us vs them sentiment that you think is a problem?

 

[Cyg1992]

Isn’t that the us vs them sentiment that you think is a problem?

No because I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care whether it's changed or not.

I don't care about flags at all other than perhaps from a historical discussion perspective.

 

[Soggy2112]

I know but most of the people here seem to want the new flag to be some sort of middle finger to the flag waving bogans. Which is why I don’t trust anyone to change the flag at the moment.

I don’t, I see changing the flag as an opportunity to unite.

Canada changed their flag to get rid of the Union Jack, why can’t we?

I’m not an artist, but I’m sure that someone could come up with something that celebrates what unites us, not what divides us.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Isn’t that the us vs them sentiment that you think is a problem?

Well the us vs them is a thing, can't be ignored.

This is why 'patriotism' is frowned up coz it's viewed as 'anti global'.

Patriotism is not intended as anti global, it's just competitive - y'know like human nature. Some people see competition as some sort of anti christ and label it as something else. Patriotism being one.

No because I don't have a dog in the fight. I don't care whether it's changed or not.

I don't care about flags at all other than perhaps from a historical discussion perspective.

Yes but others do, so I guess the pertinent bit is if the majority have a vested interest - I doubt it.

I don’t, I see changing the flag as an opportunity to unite.

Canada changed their flag to get rid of the Union Jack, why can’t we?

I’m not an artist, but I’m sure that someone could come up with something that celebrates what unites us, not what divides us.

Yeah Canada is united and certainly known as one of those under the british nations - just like us.

I'd also question that as a nation we're seriously in disunity, and if we were I doubt changing the flag would do anything about that. Certainly wouldn't change our history.

 

[ElectricG]

Well the us vs them is a thing, can't be ignored.

This is why 'patriotism' is frowned up coz it's viewed as 'anti global'.

Patriotism is not intended as anti global, it's just competitive - y'know like human nature. Some people see competition as some sort of anti christ and label it as something else. Patriotism being one.

Yes but others do, so I guess the pertinent bit is if the majority have a vested interest - I doubt it.

Yeah Canada is united and certainly known as one of those under the british nations - just like us.

I'd also question that as a nation we're seriously in disunity, and if we were I doubt changing the flag would do anything about that. Certainly wouldn't change our history.

In any case, the decision to change the flag shouldn’t be led by the people who think flags and anthems are a stupid/bad thing.

 

[Carringbush2010]

In any case, the decision to change the flag shouldn’t be led by the people who think flags and anthems are a stupid/bad thing.

Same as Anzac Day, Remembrance day etc. etc. >patriotism in general< And they probably won't be.

 

[Gethelred]

Same as Anzac Day, Remembrance day etc. etc. >patriotism in general< And they probably won't be.

Remembering the effects of war and those who died from them isn't patriotic.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Remembering the effects of war and those who died from them isn't patriotic.

Yes but that remembering is viewed as though it is patriotic by some, those some for some reason are opposed to that remembering coz it's 'patriotic, strayan 50 years ago, you should be embarrassed to be proud of your country coz england 250 odd years ago' whatever they can find offence to.

Just being patriotic in general is viewed as some sort of sin by some - something I'll never understand the why of.

Meh, each to their own.

As far as the flag goes, I don't think it'll achieve much for the majority as far as something tangible goes by changing.

If it meant that much to that many i:e the majority then yeah knock yourselves out.

 

[Gethelred]

Yes but that remembering is viewed as though it is patriotic by some, those some for some reason are opposed to that remembering coz it's 'patriotic, strayan 50 years ago, you should be embarrassed to be proud of your country coz england 250 odd years ago' whatever they can find offence to.

Just being patriotic in general is viewed as some sort of sin by some - something I'll never understand the why of.

Meh, each to their own.

As far as the flag goes, I don't think it'll achieve much for the majority as far as something tangible goes by changing.

If it meant that much to that many i:e the majority then yeah knock yourselves out.

That is an awful lot of handwringing for a post agreeing with me.

 

[Carringbush2010]

That is an awful lot of handwringing for a post agreeing with me.

Handwringing?

I didn't mention the word meh, did I not?

Maybe read the post again and broad mindedly think my reply post to you was intended for all posters to read.

 

[Gethelred]

Handwringing?

I didn't mention the word meh, did I not?

Maybe read the post again and broad mindedly think my reply post to you was intended for all posters to read.

You used 'meh' to dismiss something I didn't say, addressed at critiques not made yet.

That post had more caveats than a user agreement.

 

[Carringbush2010]

You used 'meh' to dismiss something I didn't say, addressed at critiques not made yet.

That post had more caveats than a user agreement.

No, I used meh for those who actually have a problem with the flag and what they perceive it represents.

Read it again and realize it wasn't just a reply to you.